Ep 102 - Revisionist Rovers - The Souness Years

[JacknOry]

Agree he could have and probably should have done more with his career but to say he wouldnt be in your top Rovers 30 players in your lifetime is a bit harsh. He also got himself an England cap during a time that was deemed the "Golden Generation" with Lamps, Gerrard, Beckham, Scholes and the like. There is also nothing wrong with giving a bit of extra credence because they are Blackburn lads either - all fans do it.

Yes he had the ability to possibly be more than he was but the level he gave us was already good enough if you ask me. 

[blueboy3333]

14 minutes ago, Batman. said:

Brett Emerton had a better Rovers career than Dunn.

?

[Batman.]

17 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

For absolute clarity @Batman. I have made several appeals on here for people to contribute items to the podcast. Your robust & vigorous defence of Souness is exactly the sort of discussion that I think would make for an interesting article. 

By badging the pieces “Revisionist Rovers” & explaining that your reaction is exactly the sort of reaction we hoped to get as it creates an interesting debate, I thought my intentions were transparent. Seemingly not. 

My use of the “thinking face” emoji was my attempt to see if you would give it some thought, no more, no less.

Apologies for my reaction, the language of emoji has once again been my downfall. Perhaps I have become too accustomed to defending myself on here, and therefore wrongly took it the wrong way. My bad, apologies again!

[Batman.]

13 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

Agree he could have and probably should have done more with his career but to say he wouldnt be in your top Rovers 30 players in your lifetime is a bit harsh. He also got himself an England cap during a time that was deemed the "Golden Generation" with Lamps, Gerrard, Beckham, Scholes and the like. There is also nothing wrong with giving a bit of extra credence because they are Blackburn lads either - all fans do it.

Yes he had the ability to possibly be more than he was but the level he gave us was already good enough if you ask me. 

He performed well for a total of two and a half years during his god knows how long career. Great memories, and a top player when bang at it, but I won't let the Blue and White tinted glasses ever let the word "legend" cross my mind. Some great memories though!

Don't forget, for all his front, he was a Liverpool fan growing up... 

2 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

?

Depressing isn't it? That debut though...

[blueboy3333]

8 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

Agree he could have and probably should have done more with his career but to say he wouldnt be in your top Rovers 30 players in your lifetime is a bit harsh. He also got himself an England cap during a time that was deemed the "Golden Generation" with Lamps, Gerrard, Beckham, Scholes and the like. There is also nothing wrong with giving a bit of extra credence because they are Blackburn lads either - all fans do it.

Yes he had the ability to possibly be more than he was but the level he gave us was already good enough if you ask me. 

Quite.

His last 2 seasons at Rovers in the Prem before Souness bombed him out of the club =  15 goals in 57 appearances. Hardly the stats of someone wasting their career. 

 

 

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Batman. said:

He performed well for a total of two and a half years during his god knows how long career. Great memories, and a top player when bang at it, but I won't let the Blue and White tinted glasses ever let the word "legend" cross my mind. Some great memories though!

Don't forget, for all his front, he was a Liverpool fan growing up... 

Depressing isn't it? That debut though...

Emerton's debut was terrific. A sunny day and a spanking for the Wolves.  It was downhill from there. To say he had a better career at Rovers than Dunn is ludicrous. 

[Batman.]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

Quite.

His last 2 seasons at Rovers in the Prem before Souness bombed him out of the club =  15 goals in 57 appearances. Hardly the stats of someone wasting their career. 

 

 

And what happened after that? He was 24 when we sold him. He did naff all under god knows how many managers. 2-3 good seasons out of 15 odd in his entire career. 

Any better definition for "waste of a career?"

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Batman. said:

And what happened after that? He was 24 when we sold him. He did naff all under god knows how many managers. 2-3 good seasons out of 15 odd in his entire career. 

Any better definition for "waste of a career?"

He spent the next ten seasons in the Prem. 

[Batman.]

6 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Emerton's debut was terrific. A sunny day and a spanking for the Wolves.  It was downhill from there. To say he had a better career at Rovers than Dunn is ludicrous. 

No more ludicrous than suggesting a bloke who had 2 and a half good seasons for us out of about 10 is a "Rovers Legend" just because he was born down the road.

It was a bit tongue in cheek, but the reality is he was a far better servant to the club and a far more consistent performer. I guarantee of all the seasons they were in the squad together, Emerson for 90% of the time would have been considered to be more important than Dunn.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Batman.

[Batman.]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

He spent the next ten seasons in the Prem. 

As a mediocre squad player. Feel free to post the stats. He should have had a career to rival Duff's.

Waste of a career.

[roversfan99]

27 minutes ago, Batman. said:

Neither Bruce, Hughes nor Allardyce got a great deal out of him. He was fantastic during our promotion season, but his career was a complete waste of talent. He ranged from mediocre to awful from the age of 24 onwards (more or less), so I wouldn't be celebrating him too much. I take far more pride in a player like Duff, who was phenomenal for us and went on to be a key player for the best team in the country, winning the top prizes along the way.

That's what Dunn would have done had he had more respect for his own career and the clubs employing him.

My frustration with Dunn is born out of wanting him to have achieved what he should have, and for him to be a legend of the club. However, were he from a different part of the country, nobody would talk about him. Brett Emerton had a better Rovers career than Dunn.

Allardyce got an indian summer out of him to be fair, giving him a free role led to him scoring 10 goals in a season that he did suffer a few injuries in.

[Batman.]

After Souness sold him he went on to make 246 league appearances (Premier League and Championship) with a total of 27 goals.

Hardly proved Souness wrong did he?

I repeat; a waste of talent, and a real shame (I don't want people to think I take pleasure in saying it).

Edited November 19, 2018 by Batman.

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Batman. said:

As a mediocre squad player. Feel free to post the stats. He should have had a career to rival Duff's.

Waste of a career.

Feel free to look them up. 

Dunn - 379 appearances - 59 goals

Duff - 185 Appearances - 27 goals

Dunn by any standard is a Rovers legend. Just as Faz is. Just as Garner is. Dunn, however, played most of his career at a higher standard. To say a career spent in the Prem is a wasted career is ludicrous. 

[Batman.]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

Feel free to look them up. 

Dunn - 379 appearances - 59 goals

Duff - 185 Appearances - 27 goals

Dunn by any standard is a Rovers legend. Just as Faz is. Just as Garner is. Dunn, however, played most of his career at a higher standard. To say a career spent in the Prem is a wasted career is ludicrous. 

Of course it's not ludicrous. 

He spent a maximum of three years with Rovers as a key player, and it could be argued even less. He was with us a total of 14 seasons.

To argue he is a legend in my opinion in ludicrous. 

If some people can suggest that even Rooney didn't make the most of his potential, I'm quite comfortable in saying that Dunn was verging on being a complete waster.

I think I've demonstrated enough evidence to back up my point, so I think agreeing to disagree would be the best strategy at this point.

One thing I would say with zero doubt is that Greame Souness is a far more important part of our history than David Dunn is.

And don't forget that the very little Dunn achieved in his career was under Souness...

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Batman. said:

I think I've demonstrated enough evidence to back up my point,

You haven't demonstrated any. You've just called him a waster. I've provided you with the stats.

Whether you think he could have done better is another discussion. Whether he was as good as Duff, relatively speaking, is also another discussion. I personally think Duff was phenomenally gifted. Dunn was very good, but not at the level of Duff. 

However, nearly 400 appearances and over 50 goals qualifies Dunn as a 'legend' in my book (even though I hate the term)

[Batman.]

6 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

You haven't demonstrated any. You've just called him a waster. I've provided you with the stats.

Whether you think he could have done better is another discussion. Whether he was as good as Duff, relatively speaking, is also another discussion. I personally think Duff was phenomenally gifted. Dunn was very good, but not at the level of Duff. 

However, nearly 400 appearances and over 50 goals qualifies Dunn as a 'legend' in my book (even though I hate the term)

Are you serious? "I've provided the stats..."

You've provided stats to demonstrate he was good for 2-3 years out of 14. The exact same stats I've provided. His career stats after Souness sold him are absolutely horrific, and to be honest, so were most of his performances. 

If 11 mediocre seasons (this could be downgraded to "awful" in some cases) and a ratio of a goal every 8 games from attacking midfield qualifies you as a legend in your book, then fair enough.

The reality was he didn't become the player that we expected, nor the player he should have become. Not really sure what you're struggling to grasp in this respect. You're just blindly defending him on the basis he was here a for a long time. The fact he didn't really fulfil his potential and the fact he was shite from the age of 24 onwards is why I'm labelling him a "waster." He wasted his talent. Not that difficult to understand is it?

(Cue the "Yeah but if playing 10 years in the Premier League is a waste bla bla bla..." Yes, it is a waste, because he should have spent his career being the star player for either us, or playing for a top team, winning trophies. The reality is retirement has been very kind to him, as most fans lamented his presence during his second spell here, and with food reason).

He was crap for 75 percent of that time. He flopped at Birmingham, and was somewhere from "bang average" to "absolute shite" during the vast majority of his second spell here.

Is Jordan Rhodes a Rovers legend?

Based on your argument, he should be due a statue any time now..

[Pedro]

9 hours ago, Batman. said:

And what happened after that? He was 24 when we sold him. He did naff all under god knows how many managers. 2-3 good seasons out of 15 odd in his entire career. 

Any better definition for "waste of a career?"

Shortly after his idiotic move, he suffered a severe injury that would have ended many careers.  Unfortunately, he could never be the same again. I disagree that he did naff all though. He contributed a hell of a lot upon his return to Rovers, not as explosive but a lot cannier and wiser. I also remember talk of a deserved England recall when he was banging in the goals and playing some really excellent stuff (as a number 10).

Without a shadow of a doubt, David Dunn had the tools to do even better but is undoubtedly a Rovers legend. 

[Batman.]

6 minutes ago, Pedro said:

Shortly after his idiotic move, he suffered a severe injury that would have would have ended many careers.

No he didn't.

[blueboy3333]

3 minutes ago, Pedro said:

Shortly after his idiotic move, he suffered a severe injury that would have ended many careers.  Unfortunately, he could never be the same again. I disagree that he did naff all though. He contributed a hell of a lot upon his return to Rovers, not as explosive but a lot cannier and wiser. I also remember talk of a deserved England recall when he was banging in the goals and playing some really excellent stuff (as a number 10).

Without a shadow of a doubt, David Dunn had the tools to do even better but is undoubtedly a Rovers legend. 

Quite. Hamstring injuries ruined his time at Birmingham. Harry Chapman -esque

 

2 hours ago, Batman. said:

Is Jordan Rhodes a Rovers legend?

Based on your argument, he should be due a statue any time now..

 Now you're just being silly. Grabbi on the other hand.....? 

2 hours ago, Batman. said:

The fact he didn't really fulfil his potential and the fact he was shite from the age of 24 onwards is why I'm labelling him a "waster." He wasted his talent. Not that difficult to understand is it?

A 'waster' who played the vast majority of his career in the Premier League. I think the Libertines did a song about him. 

David Dunn is a Rovers legend. 

As soon as Dunn and Duff left Ewood Rovers became dreadful very quickly. I remember Dominic Matteo playing in central midfield. That was a low point. 

[Blue n whites]

The first year in the when we was relegated was my first year as a st holder. Nothing but great memories. 

Remember being gutted we signed friedel as I thought it was the old pals act. Now if where talking about legends hes one of mine.

Sounds was great for rovers. And he went at the correct time as I felt he would of been sacked if he stayed much longer.

 

[Batman.]

12 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Quite. Hamstring injuries ruined his time at Birmingham. Harry Chapman -esque

 

 Now you're just being silly. Grabbi on the other hand.....? 

A 'waster' who played the vast majority of his career in the Premier League. I think the Libertines did a song about him. 

David Dunn is a Rovers legend. 

As soon as Dunn and Duff left Ewood Rovers became dreadful very quickly. I remember Dominic Matteo playing in central midfield. That was a low point. 

Hamstring injuries ruined his career because he saw each was as an opportunity to get on the Shandy. He suffered no "career threatening injury;" that is rewriting of history at its very best.

I've already explained a million times why he's a waster. He had the ability to be one of the very best, but he pissed it all away. That's the dictionary definition of "waster" mate. Not sure how much more I can dumb it down for you?

Duff and Dunn left at the same time. One went on to win two titles and various cups, the other went on to be relegated with Birmingham City and achieved sod all else in his career.

Which one do you think we missed?

It's so obvious it's painful.

[Pedro]

32 minutes ago, Batman. said:

No he didn't.

I must have imagined him with a severe back and hamstring injury that x amount of specialists couldn't resolve, which led to serious surgery, being kept immobile and then followed by traction.

 

In my defence, David and Steve Bruce recollect it though.

www.skysports.com/football/news/11694/2333185/bruce-backs-du

Edited November 20, 2018 by Pedro

[Batman.]

4 minutes ago, Pedro said:

I must have imagined him with a severe back and hamstring injury that x amount of specialists couldn't resolve, which led to serious surgery, being kept immobile and then followed by traction.

 

In my defence, David and Steve Bruce recollect it though.

www.skysports.com/football/news/11694/2333185/bruce-backs-du

You keep adding adjectives that nobody else it using in order to suit your agenda.

[Pedro]

22 minutes ago, Batman. said:

You keep adding adjectives that nobody else it using in order to suit your agenda.

It's strange, after a long time off posting, I started reading a few of your posts in total agreement re Souness - I even liked one or two and then merely offered a difference of opinion regarding Dunn. Sadly, it's apparent you don't seem to be able to cope with a difference of opinion (which you repackaged as an agenda).  I pop in a bit of factual information (as opposed to your thoughts that Dunn wasn't actually injured, he just used dodgy hamstrings and surgery as an elaborate excuse to have a shandy ?).  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, within a couple of posts you then got oddly petty as a get out clause - which is really disappointing, as all I wanted was a bit of debate.

 

Nevertheless, off back to the safety and sanity of the shadows I'll go.

[Oldgregg86]

In my eyes Dunn is a rovers legend.

Was he as talented as Duff, absolutely not but that doesn't take anything away from how good dunny was.

I don't believe Dunn fulfilled his potential and could have gone on to greater things. Whether it was hamstrings or hamburgers and beer the fact remains whilst in a rovers shirt he did the business.  A career that has a league cup medal, an England cap, European football and ten years in the top division in England , arguably Europe is by no means a waste. To say he could have done more , which I agree with to an extent, shouldn't take away what he actually did.

Souness left under a cloud but after all he did for us I'd like to think time heals and he would get the warm reception he deserves. 

Duff, Dunn, souness are all rovers legends imo