Ep 102 - Revisionist Rovers - The Souness Years

[Batman.]

45 minutes ago, Pedro said:

It's strange, after a long time off posting, I started reading a few of your posts in total agreement re Souness - I even liked one or two and then merely offered a difference of opinion regarding Dunn. Sadly, it's apparent you don't seem to be able to cope with a difference of opinion (which you repackaged as an agenda).  I pop in a bit of factual information (as opposed to your thoughts that Dunn wasn't actually injured, he just used dodgy hamstrings and surgery as an elaborate excuse to have a shandy ?).  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, within a couple of posts you then got oddly petty as a get out clause - which is really disappointing, as all I wanted was a bit of debate.

 

Nevertheless, off back to the safety and sanity of the shadows I'll go.

I agreed to disagree x amount of posts ago but people kept on telling me I was wrong.

These discussions are always essentially a waste of time as nobody is ever going to change their mind. 

I haven't got petty... you just keep saying things that aren't true. He didn't have a "career threatening injury that would have ended the career of many (paraphrased but more or less what you said)." Also, the persistence of his hamstring injuries were largely down to him not looking after himself. Giggs, Duff and Bellamy (along with many others) all overcame persistent hamstring injuries in their careers as they were dedicated pros, and they all fulfilled the promise that they had. Dunn didn't. This isn't a question of bad luck either. He always thought he was better than he was, he thought he could do whatever he wanted (when he was a certain age), and in the end his attitude and lack of top level dedication cost him reaching the levels his ability deserved. It's a common story in football. His career certainly didn't descend into a car crash, but it was hardly the stuff of legends.

It's a great shame, I have some fantastic memories of him, but in my opinion having 2 and a bit great seasons for us doesn't make you a legend. Some people will have different criteria. I respect all of that, but "massaging" the past in order to support an argument is frustrating to debate against, as the reality soon gets buried.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Batman.

[Batman.]

35 minutes ago, Oldgregg86 said:

In my eyes Dunn is a rovers legend.

Was he as talented as Duff, absolutely not but that doesn't take anything away from how good dunny was.

I don't believe Dunn fulfilled his potential and could have gone on to greater things. Whether it was hamstrings or hamburgers and beer the fact remains whilst in a rovers shirt he did the business.  A career that has a league cup medal, an England cap, European football and ten years in the top division in England , arguably Europe is by no means a waste. To say he could have done more , which I agree with to an extent, shouldn't take away what he actually did.

Souness left under a cloud but after all he did for us I'd like to think time heals and he would get the warm reception he deserves. 

Duff, Dunn, souness are all rovers legends imo

 

Everything he achieved for Rovers was in the two and a half period under Souness. 

As a team and as a club we achieved nothing upon his return that we wouldn't have achieved without him. Apart from that incredibly brief spell under Big Sam he literally did nothing.

Maybe the debate would be better being taken away from Dunn himself, to exactly what people consider constitutes a "legend."

[Oldgregg86]

Just now, Batman. said:

Everything he achieved for Rovers was in the two and a half period under Souness. 

As a team and as a club we achieved nothing upon his return that we wouldn't have achieved without him. Apart from that incredibly brief spell under Big Sam he literally did nothing.

Maybe the debate would be better being taken away from Dunn himself, to exactly what people consider constitutes a "legend."

I suppose what constitutes legend is the real question and one that has been done on here before. It is an over used word in the modern day but what i deem worthy of legendary status might not be how you see it so ultimately it doesn't change a thing.

The question seems to me is did dunny waste his career or would you consider his career a waste

Edited November 20, 2018 by Oldgregg86

[Batman.]

11 minutes ago, Oldgregg86 said:

I suppose what constitutes legend is the real question and one that has been done on here before. It is an over used word in the modern day but what i deem worthy of legendary status might not be how you see it so ultimately it doesn't change a thing.

The question seems to me is did dunny waste his career or would you consider his career a waste

If you offered Dunn the career he had at the age of 23, would he have taken it?

I suspect he'd have been horrified by it. Relegated with Birmingham and turning into nothing more than an inconsistent squad player at Rovers before suffering a second relegation. 

Again, I'm not sure where the term "legendary" is coming from. I'm not trying to be difficult or obtuse, I just don't see it.

[Laurence]

I remember, years ago, reading a report on an England U-21 game in which Dunn and Lampard played together. The report said something like "judging by the performance of Dunn and Lampard the future of England's midfield is safe for years to come". Sadly it didn't work out that way.

[Neil Weaver]

15 hours ago, Batman. said:

 Brett Emerton had a better Rovers career than Dunn.

Whilst not agreeing with you, fair points till then.  Suspect you've stretched a bit far there though.

[Bigdoggsteel]

While I would agree that Dunns career underwhelmed from the expectations around him circa 2001, you could argue "legendary" status due to the fact he played a key role with the club during our most successful times since winning the Premier league. He played in the Souness team, the Hughes team and under Allardyce. Overall he played 9 seasons for us in the Premier league, that's a good return. Injuries and a poor move to Birmingham did hold him back. 

Personally I would categorize him below "legendary status". In my opinion that is reserved for the following players from the Premier league era, 1992 on-wards. 

Hendry

Moran

Flowers

Shearer

Sutton

Sherwood

Hughes

Duff

Tugay

Nelsen

Honorable mentions- Wilcox, Ripley, Samba, Bentley, Atkins, McCarthy, Santa Cruz and Dunn 

Potential honorable mentions- Mulgrew and Dack 

I am regretting starting this list now cos I want to keep adding players. I will just step away from the list  

 

 

 

[Batman.]

21 minutes ago, Neil Weaver said:

Whilst not agreeing with you, fair points till then.  Suspect you've stretched a bit far there though.

A couple of posts later I did say that this was tongue in cheek, however, during the seasons they were at the club together, I can guarantee that you'd have had Emerton in the team over Dunn most of the time.

However, what Dunn gave prior to being sold outweighs anything Emerton did in Blue and White.

But Dunn mk2 really was shite. 

[Batman.]

11 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

While I would agree that Dunns career underwhelmed from the expectations around him circa 2001, you could argue "legendary" status due to the fact he played a key role with the club during our most successful times since winning the Premier league. He played in the Souness team, the Hughes team and under Allardyce. Overall he played 9 seasons for us in the Premier league, that's a good return. Injuries and a poor move to Birmingham did hold him back. 

I don't agree that he was a key player under any other manager apart from initially under Souness.

Even the season when Sam found a role for him where he could contribute a few more goals he barely managed 20 games.

If he were from anywhere other than Blackburn, people wouldn't give him a second thought. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Batman.

[Pedro]

31 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

While I would agree that Dunns career underwhelmed from the expectations around him circa 2001, you could argue "legendary" status due to the fact he played a key role with the club during our most successful times since winning the Premier league. He played in the Souness team, the Hughes team and under Allardyce. Overall he played 9 seasons for us in the Premier league, that's a good return. Injuries and a poor move to Birmingham did hold him back. 

Personally I would categorize him below "legendary status". In my opinion that is reserved for the following players from the Premier league era, 1992 on-wards. 

Hendry

Moran

Flowers

Shearer

Sutton

Sherwood

Hughes

Duff

Tugay

Nelsen

Honorable mentions- Wilcox, Ripley, Samba, Bentley, Atkins, McCarthy, Santa Cruz and Dunn 

Potential honorable mentions- Mulgrew and Dack 

I am regretting starting this list now cos I want to keep adding players. I will just step away from the list  

 

 

 

Why no Friedel?

[Bigdoggsteel]

14 minutes ago, Pedro said:

Why no Friedel?

I forgot about him. Knew there was at least 1 

[Bigdoggsteel]

38 minutes ago, Batman. said:

I don't agree that he was a key player under any other manager apart from initially under Souness.

Even the season when Sam found a role for him where he could contribute a few more goals he barely managed 20 games.

If he were from anywhere other than Blackburn, people wouldn't give him a second thought. 

He played for us for 14 seasons, if someone who wasn't from Blackburn played that much, I would imagine they would be mentioned in a similar breath

[Exiled in Toronto]

What constitutes a legend is far more interesting than dissecting Dunn’s career. Personally I found bigdogs list far too inclusive. Nelsen? Sherwood? I don’t think people will be posting about them in 20-30 years time.

Two criteria that spring to mind for me would be i) played a pivotal role in our fortunes, and ii) was our best player for many years. Example of the former would be John MacNamee, here barely a season but will never be forgotten by those who saw him single handedly stop us going into the 4th division. Shearer another. Of the latter, I’d put Garner, Douglas, Tugay etc, players who could and should have been gracing higher stages but turned out at Ewood for years.

Personally I wouldn’t find a place for Dunn in either.

[Pedro]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I forgot about him. Knew there was at least 1 

I wish we'd get the likes of the ex-players on your list back to Ewood. Rovers have unbelievably crap connections with former players/managers and seem disassociated from a chunk of our history. I used to like it when ex players did the draw at half time etc. Now we just have the guy who sounds like he's in charge of the Walters.

Get the likes of King Kenny, Tony Parkes and any of the well-loved figures back at Ewood. I'm sure some would love to come back once a season or so.

[Bigdoggsteel]

13 minutes ago, Pedro said:

I wish we'd get the likes of the ex-players on your list back to Ewood. Rovers have unbelievably crap connections with former players/managers and seem disassociated from a chunk of our history. I used to like it when ex players did the draw at half time etc. Now we just have the guy who sounds like he's in charge of the Walters.

Get the likes of King Kenny, Tony Parkes and any of the well-loved figures back at Ewood. I'm sure some would love to come back once a season or so.

Very true, that would be great to see 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

The Souness years......you don't know what you had until it's gone.

The man would be given a hero's welcome by the vast majority of Rovers fans if he visited Ewood again in any capacity.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

1 hour ago, Pedro said:

I wish we'd get the likes of the ex-players on your list back to Ewood. Rovers have unbelievably crap connections with former players/managers and seem disassociated from a chunk of our history. I used to like it when ex players did the draw at half time etc. Now we just have the guy who sounds like he's in charge of the Walters.

Get the likes of King Kenny, Tony Parkes and any of the well-loved figures back at Ewood. I'm sure some would love to come back once a season or so.

Your spot on Pedro.When you look back at the last quarter of a century the calibre of player who has worn the old Blue n White is outstanding.

[Batman.]

3 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

He played for us for 14 seasons, if someone who wasn't from Blackburn played that much, I would imagine they would be mentioned in a similar breath

Emerton did 9 didn't he? Legend?

[Batman.]

3 hours ago, Pedro said:

I wish we'd get the likes of the ex-players on your list back to Ewood. Rovers have unbelievably crap connections with former players/managers and seem disassociated from a chunk of our history. I used to like it when ex players did the draw at half time etc. Now we just have the guy who sounds like he's in charge of the Walters.

Get the likes of King Kenny, Tony Parkes and any of the well-loved figures back at Ewood. I'm sure some would love to come back once a season or so.

It's because we pettily boo all of our ex players, no matter their contribution.

Shearer, Sherwood, Le Saux, Wilcox, Berg, May, Souness, Hughes and god knows how many more were all booed upon returning despite all giving us great service and memories over the years.

It's no wonder our old players and managers don't feel a great deal of love for us. It's a real shame, as I'm in total agreement with your post.

[Ozz]

4 hours ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

What constitutes a legend is far more interesting than dissecting Dunn’s career. Personally I found bigdogs list far too inclusive. Nelsen? Sherwood? I don’t think people will be posting about them in 20-30 years time.

Two criteria that spring to mind for me would be i) played a pivotal role in our fortunes, and ii) was our best player for many years. Example of the former would be John MacNamee, here barely a season but will never be forgotten by those who saw him single handedly stop us going into the 4th division. Shearer another. Of the latter, I’d put Garner, Douglas, Tugay etc, players who could and should have been gracing higher stages but turned out at Ewood for years.

Personally I wouldn’t find a place for Dunn in either.

Only here for a year, but David Speedie had a massive pivotal role in our fortunes. More a cult hero than legend? 

 

[blueboy3333]

9 hours ago, Batman. said:

've already explained a million times why he's a waster. He had the ability to be one of the very best, but he pissed it all away. That's the dictionary definition of "waster" mate. Not sure how much more I can dumb it down for you?

See, this is where you are getting it wrong. He had injuries, it therefore doesn't follow that he 'pissed' it all away. One of the best? Your opinion, not fact.

If only you could dumb it down enough for it to make sense, 'mate',

[blueboy3333]

10 hours ago, Batman. said:

Duff and Dunn left at the same time. One went on to win two titles and various cups, the other went on to be relegated with Birmingham City and achieved sod all else in his career. 

Which one do you think we missed?

See, you're starting point is a false premise. You are comparing Duff and Dunn and using Duff's success as a stick to beat Dunn with. Duff was better than Dunn. That's why Chelsea signed Duff and not Dunn. Then going on to use Chelsea's success as proof of your point is utterly mental. 

I can't really help you any more with this. 

David Dunn - Rovers legend. 

[blueboy3333]

8 hours ago, Batman. said:

lso, the persistence of his hamstring injuries were largely down to him not looking after himself.

Have you a link to this? Someone saying they saw him down the pub is not proof.

I used to read Dunn was fat until he ripped off his shirt after scoring against the dingles. Not an ounce of fat on him.

 

 

[Batman.]

14 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

See, you're starting point is a false premise. You are comparing Duff and Dunn and using Duff's success as a stick to beat Dunn with. Duff was better than Dunn. That's why Chelsea signed Duff and not Dunn. Then going on to use Chelsea's success as proof of your point is utterly mental. 

I can't really help you any more with this. 

David Dunn - Rovers legend. 

You suggested that Dunn leaving had a detrimental effect on the team. I used his time at Birmingham along with Duff's at Chelsea to say that we didn't miss Dunn at all, but only Duff.

You either can't grasp anything that I say, or you try to change it in order to fit better with your argument.

We disagree. Get over it. It's like arguing with a wall. Or a small child. 

You think Dunn is a legend. Good luck to you. 

[Batman.]

12 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Have you a link to this? Someone saying they saw him down the pub is not proof.

I used to read Dunn was fat until he ripped off his shirt after scoring against the dingles. Not an ounce of fat on him.

 

 

A link to what? A weekly biography of his life out and about drinking around town? Are you a real person?