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3 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

There are guys who been in the pro game all their lives getting fired on a daily basis because they got things wrong once too often

A certain Sol Campbell will be the next - arrogance at its most extreme.

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1 minute ago, JacknOry said:

A certain Sol Campbell will be the next - arrogance at its most extreme.

Now that guy is an absolute crank!! He had even more wild ideas than some on here! 🤣🤣

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9 hours ago, Biz said:

Also had about 8 windows didn’t he? And not one of them in the third tier.

He didn't have eight, Donald, he had 5, of which at least one was spent under an embargo.  He also spent a lot less than Mowbray has spent in the three windows he's had. 

Apart from that, good post :rolleyes:

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9 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

The fact that after twenty-one games we are in a more than comfortable position, particularly as a newly promoted club, probably justifies Mowbray's decision to keep faith with the old guard for the moment.

...and by the same token it doesn't justify his decision to spend £7m on someone who isn't better than the old guard.  

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47 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Wow - I stand shoulder to shoulder with this guy. 100% nailed. This is the type of opinion you only usually hear from football people. You in / been in the game mate?  

Image result for puke gif

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38 minutes ago, Stuart said:

https://www.nottinghampost.com/sport/football/transfer-news/signing-ben-brereton-opportunity-good-1946842

Mowbray on Brereton: "He's six foot three, he can travel with the ball, he can dribble, he can power past people, he can run without it, he can create, he can cross, he can shoot, he can affect football matches.”

When, in training?

Give the lad a chance, Tony. Especially when Graham is out. Why change formation and tactics to avoid playing him?

Mogga had me at 'he can run without it'. A rare talent. 

He sounds like the best player we've got, and at £7m he should be. 

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8 hours ago, Mellor Rover said:

If anyone says we don’t need any more midfielders they obviously have more patience with the Smallwood/Evans love-in than i do)

I'm with you. If we are ever to progress as a team both should be nowhere near a starting 11. They will tide us over until summer but that is an area that needs strengthening massively. 

I understand why Tony says we need to build over a few windows when you look at the positions that need strengthening to compete at the top end

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40 minutes ago, Oldgregg86 said:

I'm with you. If we are ever to progress as a team both should be nowhere near a starting 11. They will tide us over until summer but that is an area that needs strengthening massively. 

I understand why Tony says we need to build over a few windows when you look at the positions that need strengthening to compete at the top end

Completely agree. If we want to go up then long term we need to improve at CB, LB, 2 x DM plus 2 x AM’s (we don’t play with wingers but I’d like pace) Robinson from Preston? 

I still believe that we’ll try to get a mainline striker (loan), Reed  and Chapman permenant this window following Brereton perm.

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2 hours ago, Biz said:

Only plausible explanations? I accept you may see with only two options, so black and white but I do not.

There is plenty of things I’d suggest impact his  usage on the field that don’t include his price or a pay by you play loan deal....

Just a selection since I’m waiting for a lift and the bar stool is late;

1. The manager himself just after signing said “Let's forget about the price now and concentrate on the player. He's a 19-year-old boy.” 

2. We play one centreforward 

3. We have Armstrong who is arguably deserved of a priority due to last season (like a few others, another comment from manager about giving them a chance is available)

4. Brererton has spent 99% of his entire career at one club, certain style, people, training, team mates, etc - not all players acclimatise instantly.

5. We attempted to sign other forwards prior to B.B. and thus one would predict wasn’t first choice or expected to be as good instantly.

Plenty of others related to style of play, attitude, fitness, Danny Graham’s impact, Kasey Palmer being used as a number 10 - arguably his best position but can you drop Dack? Etc etc 

The price may be seen as more as a long term investment, and like AA, never played premier league football = softer wages = more to pay on transfer cost. Whilst this is a financial aspect - I believe it might be worth considering that 7m (even if it does get to that) in 2018, regardless of past records - is paltry to adding the monthly cost that teams such as Forest, added to their bills this previous summer, through wages.

7m upfront from us (unlikely) would only pay for 5 new players on 30k a week in wages for one season!

I don't actually agree at all with any of your points there.

1) He's not concentrating on the player by not giving him a chance is he? It seems to me that paying a huge fee for the lad then refusing to hand him a start or play him in his natural position is the best way to destroy his confidence.

2) If he wanted to carry on playing that system, all the more reason why the main summer signing needed to be someone capable of coming in and replacing Graham.

3) Armstrong isn't being given a chance in his preferred position either and is suffering accordingly

4) Good players can adapt instantly

5) Don't understand this point. We chose to pay £7m for him,  whether he was first choice or 5th choice is completely irrelevant. For that price he has to be ready.

My main gripe with your argument though is this assumption that BB will be on low wages. Do we KNOW for a fact that this is the case or is it simply something you've invented to suit your argument?

If I was BB's agent I'd want him to be on top whack if I was negotiating a deal of that magnitude.

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2 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Hate that sort of arrogant attitude that implies that everything a football professional says or does is correct whereas the opinion of someone who isn't a football professional is worthless.  

Couldnt agree more. Makes this place totally pointless for one.

2 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

I hate listening to people who form opinions to fit their own narrative without having the knowledge or actually looking at the evidence. So I guess we’ve all got to put up with people.

Its a message board after all. Just opinions.

As long as they are the opinions of a professional manager or coach?

3 hours ago, Biz said:

Only plausible explanations? I accept you may see with only two options, so black and white but I do not.

There is plenty of things I’d suggest impact his  usage on the field that don’t include his price or a pay by you play loan deal....

Just a selection since I’m waiting for a lift and the bar stool is late;

1. The manager himself just after signing said “Let's forget about the price now and concentrate on the player. He's a 19-year-old boy.” 

2. We play one centreforward 

3. We have Armstrong who is arguably deserved of a priority due to last season (like a few others, another comment from manager about giving them a chance is available)

4. Brererton has spent 99% of his entire career at one club, certain style, people, training, team mates, etc - not all players acclimatise instantly.

5. We attempted to sign other forwards prior to B.B. and thus one would predict wasn’t first choice or expected to be as good instantly.

Plenty of others related to style of play, attitude, fitness, Danny Graham’s impact, Kasey Palmer being used as a number 10 - arguably his best position but can you drop Dack? Etc etc 

The price may be seen as more as a long term investment, and like AA, never played premier league football = softer wages = more to pay on transfer cost. Whilst this is a financial aspect - I believe it might be worth considering that 7m (even if it does get to that) in 2018, regardless of past records - is paltry to adding the monthly cost that teams such as Forest, added to their bills this previous summer, through wages.

7m upfront from us (unlikely) would only pay for 5 new players on 30k a week in wages for one season!

Arrogance to suggest no plausible reason in your own mind means = it must be implausible.

As I said earlier - the Brererton deal offers a potential “axe to grind” and there is absolutely no coincidence those most willing to wield it have been 5/10 on Mowbray for some time.

@JacknOry responds to these points in excellent detail.

There is a myth circulating that Rovers fans are expecting loads from Brereton already and its blatantly not true.

There is also a myth that it is ok for him to be solely a project, as if hes an untested kid. Hes got plenty of game time under his belt at Forest at this level. Point 1 defunct.

The reason point 2 is moot is because Mowbray wont consider Brereton to be a striker, one of the key elements of the whole debate.

Armstrong doesnt play up front either. Thats point 3.

Understand that he will take a bit of time to acclimatise but hes part of the squad and again going back to the myth, just  having him as a second choice striker with Graham ahead of him is hardly expecting loads.

The Palmer and Dack experiment, and the Dack up top experiment simply didnt work. Surely testing the waters with a young, talented striker with Championship experience made more sense. Surely you cant really defend them choices.

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15 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I don't actually agree at all with any of your points there.

1) He's not concentrating on the player by not giving him a chance is he? It seems to me that paying a huge fee for the lad then refusing to hand him a start or play him in his natural position is the best way to destroy his confidence.

2) If he wanted to carry on playing that system, all the more reason why the main summer signing needed to be someone capable of coming in and replacing Graham.

3) Armstrong isn't being given a chance in his preferred position either and is suffering accordingly

4) Good players can adapt instantly

5) Don't understand this point. We chose to pay £7m for him,  whether he was first choice or 5th choice is completely irrelevant. For that price he has to be ready.

My main gripe with your argument though is this assumption that BB will be on low wages. Do we KNOW for a fact that this is the case or is it simply something you've invented to suit your argument?

If I was BB's agent I'd want him to be on top whack if I was negotiating a deal of that magnitude.

Good for you, I’m proud of you. I’d expect you to disagree with everything I’ve ever said if you genuinely believe the only two possible plausible reasons for Brererton not starting yet are;

1. Dodgy finance on loan AKA team impacted by financial choice not just manager

or

2. Brererton forced on manager and he’s binning him off to make a point...

In reply to your reasoning; Assumption he is on low wages though, I would call any figure an assumption since it’s not published. Doesn’t take a genius to understand why players with premier league experience or higher get paid more though does it?

Armstrong is being given the same chance as last season, just because you’d play a different setup means little to the facts. 

The last point to make is you seemingly think it’s a simple! As if, we needed to replace Graham or at least have good quality cover... It’s not simple as googling the necessities.. it’s not ordering through CPC! 

 

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14 minutes ago, Biz said:

Good for you, I’m proud of you. I’d expect you to disagree with everything I’ve ever said if you genuinely believe the only two possible plausible reasons for Brererton not starting yet are;

1. Dodgy finance on loan AKA team impacted by financial choice not just manager

or

2. Brererton forced on manager and he’s binning him off to make a point...

In reply to your reasoning; Assumption he is on low wages though, I would call any figure an assumption since it’s not published. Doesn’t take a genius to understand why players with premier league experience or higher get paid more though does it?

Armstrong is being given the same chance as last season, just because you’d play a different setup means little to the facts. 

The last point to make is you seemingly think it’s a simple! As if, we needed to replace Graham or at least have good quality cover... It’s not simple as googling the necessities.. it’s not ordering through CPC! 

 

We might disagree but no need to be disagreeable.

If you're guessing at BB's wages then that makes your argument in that respect somewhat redundant.

As for Armstrong my understanding was that the player himself had expressed a clear preference for playing more centrally and my recollection from last season was that he was used a lot more centrally and looked much more dangerous using his pace from that position.

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12 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Couldnt agree more. Makes this place totally pointless for one.

As long as they are the opinions of a professional manager or coach?

@JacknOry responds to these points in excellent detail.

There is a myth circulating that Rovers fans are expecting loads from Brereton already and its blatantly not true.

There is also a myth that it is ok for him to be solely a project, as if hes an untested kid. Hes got plenty of game time under his belt at Forest at this level. Point 1 defunct.

The reason point 2 is moot is because Mowbray wont consider Brereton to be a striker, one of the key elements of the whole debate.

Armstrong doesnt play up front either. Thats point 3.

Understand that he will take a bit of time to acclimatise but hes part of the squad and again going back to the myth, just  having him as a second choice striker with Graham ahead of him is hardly expecting loads.

The Palmer and Dack experiment, and the Dack up top experiment simply didnt work. Surely testing the waters with a young, talented striker with Championship experience made more sense. Surely you cant really defend them choices.

Not expecting loads? Every match thread has a prediction for him to score. How about he starts first?

You argue as if he is a stalwart proven championship striker. He isn’t. He’s played a few games, in the squad as third choice to Assombolonga and others. Injury thrust him into it, not readiness to usurp those around him.

You might gloss over it - but our system is more important to any “usage of our forwards debate” than any condescending “This “Mowbray doesn’t consider him a striker”...

I mean you truly have to be arrogant to think you know what the detailed thoughts of the manager are on a player- what he sees him as, his strengths, his weaknesses. Might be key element to you in this, but to me seems irrelevant what position he wants to use B.B. in, long term.

I personally don’t think 3 months of being in the squad, on the bench and then coming on as a wide forward means TM thinks he’s no striker. That’s just me. By the same idea, you must think TM rates AA as a winger then? Even though he’s said on numerous occasions he sees Armstrong leading the line, and it’s his best position.

Finally - I’m not defending TM. I’m saying what I think, my opinion. I think the idea that the appearances are reduced due to finance is laughable, or the idea that he is a “marquee” “clanger” already, basically just trolling. The idea that TM didn’t choose the signing is also a joke in my eyes, not least because I’ve listened to the man explain why he wanted him.

To conclude - many, not sure if you included, say Palmer has been wasted because he hasn’t been used as a number 10. Well, on the occasion we had no Graham- we went with Palmer behind an un-droppable Dack. The same Palmer who played in that role for a promoted Huddersfield? Whilst a failed experiment it might be, painted as “indefensible” is way OTTIMO

 

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1 minute ago, RevidgeBlue said:

We might disagree but no need to be disagreeable.

If you're guessing at BB's wages then that makes your argument in that respect somewhat redundant.

As for Armstrong my understanding was that the player himself had expressed a clear preference for playing more centrally and my recollection from last season was that he was used a lot more centrally and looked much more dangerous using his pace from that position.

I might be getting old but I don’t think we’ve varied the setup or formation for 12 months. He hasn’t played as well this season - that’s something we can agree on

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31 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Couldnt agree more. Makes this place totally pointless for one. It only makes it impossible if you can’t accept that sometimes people know more than you do.

As long as they are the opinions of a professional manager or coach? I haven’t shot anyone down or been abusive. All I’ve done is gone against the grain in here and the reaction is the same every single time. 

@JacknOry responds to these points in excellent detail.

There is a myth circulating that Rovers fans are expecting loads from Brereton already and its blatantly not true.

There is also a myth that it is ok for him to be solely a project, as if hes an untested kid. Hes got plenty of game time under his belt at Forest at this level. Point 1 defunct.

The reason point 2 is moot is because Mowbray wont consider Brereton to be a striker, one of the key elements of the whole debate.

Armstrong doesnt play up front either. Thats point 3.

Understand that he will take a bit of time to acclimatise but hes part of the squad and again going back to the myth, just  having him as a second choice striker with Graham ahead of him is hardly expecting loads.

The Palmer and Dack experiment, and the Dack up top experiment simply didnt work. Surely testing the waters with a young, talented striker with Championship experience made more sense. Surely you cant really defend them choices.

This isn’t black and white. BB is 19yrs Old and 3 months into a new career at a new club. For anyone to whittle the reason for not playing to be either (a) or (b) is asking for criticism.

As for the rest of it. It’s pure conjecture but for anyone to suggest that Mowbrays transfer business is 5/10 is again proof that they don’t understand football. He signed players in League 1 to get out of that division and that’s what happened. Only Whittingham played no part in that success.

This season he’s signed players to make us competitive and the likes of Reed, Palmer, Rothwell, Brereton have scored goals and had assists so have contributed to a good start to the season. Rodwell has been decent too and Davenport has been injured. 

 

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1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I don't actually agree at all with any of your points there.

1) He's not concentrating on the player by not giving him a chance is he? It seems to me that paying a huge fee for the lad then refusing to hand him a start or play him in his natural position is the best way to destroy his confidence. Assumption

2) If he wanted to carry on playing that system, all the more reason why the main summer signing needed to be someone capable of coming in and replacing Graham. Agreed

3) Armstrong isn't being given a chance in his preferred position either and is suffering accordingly. He’s had a couple of chances actually both starting and in game and struggled. He’s the signing I’m most worried about.

4) Good players can adapt instantly WOW just WOW!! You having a laugh?

5) Don't understand this point. We chose to pay £7m for him,  whether he was first choice or 5th choice is completely irrelevant. For that price he has to be ready. Why? What qualifies you to make that statement without knowing the player, the manager or any context?

My main gripe with your argument though is this assumption that BB will be on low wages. Do we KNOW for a fact that this is the case or is it simply something you've invented to suit your argument? His wages are interesting but largely irrelevant to anyone other than him and the people paying him. I reckon he’s on a good whack considering several Prem clubs had been sniffing. I know that Spurs, Pool, Leicester and West Ham we’re interested last Christmas. He was formally recommended to Craig Shakespeare before he was sacked. I got this from the man who was scouting BB for Leicester. He’s now got a league managers job and was blown away when he realised we had managed to sign BB. 100% believes BB will be a megastar and knows how highly TM and Veno rate him.

If I was BB's agent I'd want him to be on top whack if I was negotiating a deal of that magnitude. Exactly right. Thankfully your last name isn’t Rao so whilst it’s cool to ponder it doesn’t really concern any of us 👍🏼

 

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@Paul Mani theres an undercurrent of cryptic arrogance throughout your post. Firstly, please can you state what your job is in football? Apologies if ive missed it but its the elephant in the room in every one of your posts, you clearly want people to know.

I find your angle really strange. You come onto an internet messageboard, which is a vessel for fans to discuss their opinions. You arent doing that, you are just saying Mowbray knows more than us all as if that is a valid way to shoot down your posts. Did you join the forum expecting posts to consist of people just echoing Mowbrays decisions and saying I agree because he knows more than us? No one is claiming to be a better potential manager than Mowbray.

If he signed players in League 1 solely to guarantee promotion, may I ask why such a short term objective has been totally flipped on his head, going from signing players solely for the upcoming season, to signing players solely for the future, not expected to contribute anything at first? 

I also disagree with the notion that we signed players solely with a short term aim in mind anyway, supported with quotes below:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/15565159.i-think-the-signs-are-there-that-it-will-be-a-good-combination-tony-mowbray-on-rovers-duo-bradley-dack-and-dominic-samuel/

“I was very aware of not trying to burden two 23-year-old boys to fire us out of this league."

“But I do think that Samuel and Dack were brought here for some money that we had to spend and in the long-term help this club progress back up the leagues."

Your comment that only Whittingham didnt contribute is nonsense too. Whittingham contributed far more than quite a few players, notably Hart, Leutweiler and Gladwin.

Mowbray knows far more than me, but I signed up on here before he even joined, solely for the purpose of giving my own personal opinions, under no illusions that I am not qualified to actually become the manager. 

I also stand by my criticisms on the summer business we did too, and the lack of impact most have had so far. But hey, I dont know as much about football as you.

 

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4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

@Paul Mani theres an undercurrent of cryptic arrogance throughout your post. Firstly, please can you state what your job is in football? Apologies if ive missed it but its the elephant in the room in every one of your posts, you clearly want people to know. I don’t work in football, never have. But I’ve been around football and footballers at differing levels to have a good understanding of how things work. 

I find your angle really strange. You come onto an internet messageboard, which is a vessel for fans to discuss their opinions. You arent doing that, you are just saying Mowbray knows more than us all as if that is a valid way to shoot down your posts. Did you join the forum expecting posts to consist of people just echoing Mowbrays decisions and saying I agree because he knows more than us? No one is claiming to be a better potential manager than Mowbray. Check every single post I’ve made. I usually start with in my opinion or my view is. The problem here is that it’s usually not the same as the masses and so you lot kick off, every. Single. Time.

If he signed players in League 1 solely to guarantee promotion, may I ask why such a short term objective has been totally flipped on his head, going from signing players solely for the upcoming season, to signing players solely for the future, not expected to contribute anything at first? This isn’t difficult. He had to get out of that league and most of the players he bought helped to do exactly that. Ergo he achieved his goal.

I also disagree with the notion that we signed players solely with a short term aim in mind anyway, supported with quotes below:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/15565159.i-think-the-signs-are-there-that-it-will-be-a-good-combination-tony-mowbray-on-rovers-duo-bradley-dack-and-dominic-samuel/

“I was very aware of not trying to burden two 23-year-old boys to fire us out of this league."

“But I do think that Samuel and Dack were brought here for some money that we had to spend and in the long-term help this club progress back up the leagues." I haven’t said he deployed a short term view. I said he signed the players to get out of that league. Some have made the jump, others are struggling but ultimately he had a budget and spent it wisely....because we went up!!

Your comment that only Whittingham didnt contribute is nonsense too. Whittingham contributed far more than quite a few players, notably Hart, Leutweiler and Gladwin. My bad. 

Mowbray knows far more than me, but I signed up on here before he even joined, solely for the purpose of giving my own personal opinions, under no illusions that I am not qualified to actually become the manager. You’re free to have your opinions but also expect to be criticised when you start overreacting and making things fit your narrative. I respect your opinion, but I don’t have to agree.

I also stand by my criticisms on the summer business we did too, and the lack of impact most have had so far. But hey, I dont know as much about football as you. Correct. (IMHO)

 

 

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@Paul Mani I totally agree that Mowbray did very well to get promoted, hes done a good job in general, and hes got the fanbase united beind him. Hes done more right than wrong. But not everything he has done is right. Nor can we expect it to be. But we can point it out. Alex Ferguson is as good a manager as there has ever been. He signed Eric Djemba and Bebe.

Ive no idea if you are claiming superior knowledge in a ironic sense, or it is genuine arrogance but either way you surely appreciate that constantly going round teling people that whilst shooting any constructive criticism down on the sole notion that Mowbray knows better than us and thats that, is going to rub people up the wrong way.

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7 hours ago, Biz said:

Apologies, I’ll reply instead;

The idea we are limiting his appearances for financial reasons is laughable. 

Is it though? It's something we have done as a club under Venkys before - Salgado and (possibly) Nelsen.

I have started to wonder whether there might be something in this conspiracy theory. The situation is so bizarre without it that there just might be something in it. I can't see why his starts would be weighted more in terms of cost during the loan period than after it becomes permanent, but I wonder if we pay a set fee after X number of starts and TM has been instructed to limit his starts for now so that the payment required coincides with the next due Venkys cash investment. TM tending to introduce players slowly anyway might not object to waiting until January to start him in the league.

Could equally easily be cobblers, but something about this whole thing doesn't seem quite right so far.

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1 hour ago, Paul Mani said:

I don’t work in football, never have. But I’ve been around football and footballers at differing levels to have a good understanding of how things work. 

Shebby?

Edited by blueboy3333

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6 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Is it though? It's something we have done as a club under Venkys before - Salgado and (possibly) Nelsen.

I have started to wonder whether there might be something in this conspiracy theory. The situation is so bizarre without it that there just might be something in it. I can't see why his starts would be weighted more in terms of cost during the loan period than after it becomes permanent, but I wonder if we pay a set fee after X number of starts and TM has been instructed to limit his starts for now so that the payment required coincides with the next due Venkys cash investment. TM tending to introduce players slowly anyway might not object to waiting until January to start him in the league.

Could equally easily be cobblers, but something about this whole thing doesn't seem quite right so far.

Cannot agree, and I simply cannot accept the “it’s happened to us before” argument.

The climate is different these days at the club and signing (to quote the manager) a “19 year old boy” but not thrusting him into the team is not “bizarre”

Even if you suggest the “huge” fee makes this more concerning, I personally don’t think 7m will go very far for young championship experienced players.

For example; How much would you sell Nyambe, Lenihan and Raya for?

Finally - if there is any loan deal that we’ve signed that includes some sort of fee for the way he’s used - I’d suggest the most likely one of those is Palmer. I’d also suggest Chelsea have been on the blower a few times saying “why is he not playing”? There is an interview with the Peterborough chairman from earlier in the year (could’nt find) that talks about Liverpool including a sanction for NOT playing Ben Woodburn when he went to Sheff United.

The reason for that was the demand for the player and Liverpool’s concern about stifling a talent.

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