Venkys - Welcome or Not?

[Bigdoggsteel]

18 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

There is no doubt that there have been all sorts of wrong 'uns in the corridors of Ewood, but who put them there? And even if they were put there by proxy, that's solely the owners' responsibility; the buck stops with them. They've destroyed the club through naivety, not through malice (why would they?), but it IS to do with poor ownership. Just when you think they may have turned a corner by appointing Lambert and Irvine, we then go and appoint Owen Coyle. So there is no chance that this poor ownership is over, I'm afraid. The telltale will be what happens when Mowbray leaves, because it looks like he's the one who's done ALL of this recent good stuff.

Ya, the buck does stop with them of course. Although when you bring up their naivety , it makes me think that the walker trust should really have flagged that when selling the club. 

As for your last sentence, don't say those words, we all know Tony is here to stay!  

[Bigdoggsteel]

24 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I don't think FFP is anything to worry about with the levels we've been spending.

Whilst the Brereton deal is a lot more than I expected us to be spending, it isn't going to be a £7 million cash payout in one go. It will be a deal that could reach £7 million over the next 3-4 years if certain milestones are reached for both Ben and Rovers e.g. if we get promoted, if he scores X goals or if he plays for England.

If any of those things do happen then his value and our value/revenues will increase so much that £7 million will be loose change.

As with Armstrong it really is a no-brainer. We've probably committed to £4 million or so for Brereton and about £1.5 million for Armstrong. Decent money but not close to what most clubs at this level have spent recently. But the key is that there's a very high likelihood that one or both of those two lads will be worth £10 million+ in the next couple of years if they develop as expected and perform in the Championship. If they don't they've always got Dack who even now would probably fetch a £6 million profit having only played 3 Championship games in his career.

Its a sensible and good way to do business, along similar lines to what they were doing under Bowyer although they seem to have released a bit more for Mowbray either because they like him or because the wage bill isn't quite as onerous as it was back then.

It comes back to whether this is a genuine attempt to improve and strengthen the team for years to come or whether its with a view to a mass cull in a couple of years should we not manage to get promoted. Only time will tell but after what they did to Bowyer's team I'm treading more carefully this time. I hope they've changed and the accountants, Mowbray, Waggott and Pasha have got the message through to the bungalow that this is how to behave. 

I have read its £6-7 million in January with further increments after that. Where are you getting the £4 million figure from? I haven't seen that figure mentioned anywhere else 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

3 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya, the buck does stop with them of course. Although when you bring up their naivety , it makes me think that the walker trust should really have flagged that when selling the club. 

As for your last sentence, don't say those words, we all know Tony is here to stay!  

The Walker Trust couldn't care less as long as they got the club off their hands.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

The Walker Trust couldn't care less as long as they got the club off their hands.

Seems that way alright 

[JHRover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I have read its £6-7 million in January with further increments after that. Where are you getting the £4 million figure from? I haven't seen that figure mentioned anywhere else 

 

At the Forest end of it they were saying that the deal 'could' be worth 'up to' £7 million to them. That suggests a maximum of that if certain conditions are met and it could be less.

The £4 million is an estimate as to the likely ball park downpayment we're talking here. A certain amount guaranteed up front with other chunks along the way depending on performance.

The Rhodes deal was reported at £8 million yet plenty of those 'ITK' said it was nowhere near that to begin with but would have reached that had we got promoted etc.

 

[Leonard Venkhater]

49 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I think our past problems were due to the wrong people being on the ground in and around the club, more so than the owners. They were clueless, but if they kept what we had or appointed the right people from the start, it would have saved us fans a lot of pain 

I don't buy that. They were told...right from the start too.

Arrogance and refusal to listen, while the abuse continued.

Sound familiar after last weekend over there?

[tomphil]

Most sources claimed the Rhodes deal was fixed at 2 million per year over 4 years although that was comfortably covered by parachute income as was his contract.  Along with Murphy, Best, Etuhu etc etc ?

Someone must've gone guarantor on this one.....

[Bigdoggsteel]

22 minutes ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

I don't buy that. They were told...right from the start too.

Arrogance and refusal to listen, while the abuse continued.

Sound familiar after last weekend over there?

Told what, by who? They were/are in a bubble in India. Why would those on the ground at the club tell them that things were gone to shit? 

I don't get your last line, what do you mean? 

[Leonard Venkhater]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Told what, by who? They were/are in a bubble in India. Why would those on the ground at the club tell them that things were gone to shit? 

I don't get your last line, what do you mean? 

To quote Mr Zimmerman..   " I don't believe you."

[Mattyblue]

Catholic Church, I presume?

[Bigdoggsteel]

33 minutes ago, JHRover said:

At the Forest end of it they were saying that the deal 'could' be worth 'up to' £7 million to them. That suggests a maximum of that if certain conditions are met and it could be less.

The £4 million is an estimate as to the likely ball park downpayment we're talking here. A certain amount guaranteed up front with other chunks along the way depending on performance.

The Rhodes deal was reported at £8 million yet plenty of those 'ITK' said it was nowhere near that to begin with but would have reached that had we got promoted etc.

 

So did the window exceed your expectations? You thought we had next to nothing to spend 

Remember you asked me to come back to you after we sign Brereton 

[SBlue]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

I don't think FFP is anything to worry about with the levels we've been spending.

Whilst the Brereton deal is a lot more than I expected us to be spending, it isn't going to be a £7 million cash payout in one go. It will be a deal that could reach £7 million over the next 3-4 years if certain milestones are reached for both Ben and Rovers e.g. if we get promoted, if he scores X goals or if he plays for England.

If any of those things do happen then his value and our value/revenues will increase so much that £7 million will be loose change.

As with Armstrong it really is a no-brainer. We've probably committed to £4 million or so for Brereton and about £1.5 million for Armstrong. Decent money but not close to what most clubs at this level have spent recently. But the key is that there's a very high likelihood that one or both of those two lads will be worth £10 million+ in the next couple of years if they develop as expected and perform in the Championship. If they don't they've always got Dack who even now would probably fetch a £6 million profit having only played 3 Championship games in his career.

Its a sensible and good way to do business, along similar lines to what they were doing under Bowyer although they seem to have released a bit more for Mowbray either because they like him or because the wage bill isn't quite as onerous as it was back then.

It comes back to whether this is a genuine attempt to improve and strengthen the team for years to come or whether its with a view to a mass cull in a couple of years should we not manage to get promoted. Only time will tell but after what they did to Bowyer's team I'm treading more carefully this time. I hope they've changed and the accountants, Mowbray, Waggott and Pasha have got the message through to the bungalow that this is how to behave. 

I'd agree with this but I don't expect to be immune to the four/five year cycle of boom and bust that most other clubs of our level are subject to.

Steady investment to improve us longer term is the goal here I think, but the piper always needs paying via sales and rolling back the spending if we don't see massive returns via promotion in this time.

It's the way it has to be at this level, and if Mowbray is the man that can take us from basket case to a sensible, well run club with a strategy then he deserves huge plaudits.

There's a massive shadowy figure of the Venky's past fuck ups in the background of course. 

Whilst all seems rosy let's just whinge about the shirt colour.

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Leonard Venkhater said:

To quote Mr Zimmerman..   " I don't believe you."

Again, I don't understand. 

If as was suggested by another poster you are likening Venkys running of the club to the abuse the Catholic church carried out in Ireland, I would say wind your neck in. Think of an analogy that isn't completely out of proportion to the point being discussed. 

[Leonard Venkhater]

8 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Again, I don't understand. 

If as was suggested by another poster you are likening Venkys running of the club to the abuse the Catholic church carried out in Ireland, I would say wind your neck in. Think of an analogy that isn't completely out of proportion to the point being discussed. 

The process, dear boy..of course not the damage.

Arrogant, management by denial, appointing the wrong/dangerous people from afar, continuing to employ them, despite receipt of significant negative information, disregard for /blaming the complainants. 

Anyway, it's over here too...

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Leonard Venkhater said:

The process, dear boy..of course not the damage.

Arrogant, management by denial, appointing the wrong/dangerous people from afar, continuing to employ them, despite receipt of significant negative information, disregard for /blaming the complainants. 

Anyway, it's over here too...

Please stop...

[JHRover]

3 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

So did the window exceed your expectations? You thought we had next to nothing to spend 

Remember you asked me to come back to you after we sign Brereton 

I think I've already said two things on this subject. I also said I would pass judgment when the window was shut.

First off they've surprised me with the Brereton purchase and yes I turned out to be wrong when suggesting our interest was not serious or that multi-million pound bids were not genuine. Well done all round for that one. My cynicism in relation to these owners will not immediately change off the back of a couple of good transfers but I'm happy to be proved wrong many more times if it means more money is invested and we sign more good players.

Did the window exceed my expectations? I suppose in terms of the money we've paid out yes it did, because I never believed we would spend what we did on Brereton and Armstrong (even though I still believe it is short of the £9-10 million some people are claiming, probably more towards £5 million with add ons down the line).

Still it is movement in the right direction.

In terms of those players we have brought in overall I'm happy with the type and quality. The big ones for me are Armstrong and Brereton as long term signings, and I would have liked more long term signings rather than short term as I can forsee another major overhaul next summer.

I would have liked and would still like a couple more - a back up GK/CB and another option up top - so I'm not 100% satisfied no - I don't think anyone at any club ever can be as there is always room to improve further - of importance here is the manager saying he wanted 4-5 more players and to date we've added 3, of which one is Rodwell, and Reed is only a loan.

So happy with the money invested, happy with most of those brought in, but think more could and hopefully will be done.

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, JHRover said:

I think I've already said two things on this subject. I also said I would pass judgment when the window was shut.

First off they've surprised me with the Brereton purchase and yes I turned out to be wrong when suggesting our interest was not serious or that multi-million pound bids were not genuine. Well done all round for that one. My cynicism in relation to these owners will not immediately change off the back of a couple of good transfers but I'm happy to be proved wrong many more times if it means more money is invested and we sign more good players.

Did the window exceed my expectations? I suppose in terms of the money we've paid out yes it did, because I never believed we would spend what we did on Brereton and Armstrong (even though I still believe it is short of the £9-10 million some people are claiming, probably more towards £5 million with add ons down the line).

Still it is movement in the right direction.

In terms of those players we have brought in overall I'm happy with the type and quality. The big ones for me are Armstrong and Brereton as long term signings, and I would have liked more long term signings rather than short term as I can forsee another major overhaul next summer.

I would have liked and would still like a couple more - a back up GK/CB and another option up top - so I'm not 100% satisfied no - I don't think anyone at any club ever can be as there is always room to improve further - of importance here is the manager saying he wanted 4-5 more players and to date we've added 3, of which one is Rodwell, and Reed is only a loan.

So happy with the money invested, happy with most of those brought in, but think more could and hopefully will be done.

 

Fair enough. Just on the highlighted, we also signed Davenport and Rodwell for fees. Along with signing a number of key players down to long term deals. Again, all costing money. So even on outlay on transfers upfront now, I would say its more along the lines of a figure between your £5 million and others £10 million, around £7 million I reckon. 

As for the overhaul next season. It won't be as extreme as you are making out it will be. This is an exciting time for the club. 

[islander200]

Just now, JHRover said:

I think I've already said two things on this subject. I also said I would pass judgment when the window was shut.

First off they've surprised me with the Brereton purchase and yes I turned out to be wrong when suggesting our interest was not serious or that multi-million pound bids were not genuine. Well done all round for that one. My cynicism in relation to these owners will not immediately change off the back of a couple of good transfers but I'm happy to be proved wrong many more times if it means more money is invested and we sign more good players.

Did the window exceed my expectations? I suppose in terms of the money we've paid out yes it did, because I never believed we would spend what we did on Brereton and Armstrong (even though I still believe it is short of the £9-10 million some people are claiming, probably more towards £5 million with add ons down the line).

Still it is movement in the right direction.

In terms of those players we have brought in overall I'm happy with the type and quality. The big ones for me are Armstrong and Brereton as long term signings, and I would have liked more long term signings rather than short term as I can forsee another major overhaul next summer.

I would have liked and would still like a couple more - a back up GK/CB and another option up top - so I'm not 100% satisfied no - I don't think anyone at any club ever can be as there is always room to improve further - of importance here is the manager saying he wanted 4-5 more players and to date we've added 3, of which one is Rodwell, and Reed is only a loan.

So happy with the money invested, happy with most of those brought in, but think more could and hopefully will be done.

 

Rothwell and Davenport are long term signings too.

Reed just as a loan is the correct decision imo, if he does well and TM decides on keeping him and he is happy then I don't think it will be that hard to do a deal.

But we have Travis and Davenport as young centre midfielders and a year playing in League one and Travis could come back ready to challenge for a starting place so might be no need to put some of our budget toward another midfielder in Reed.

Would like to see an experienced goalkeeper brought in and another attacker, I wouldn't say no to another centre half but if Mowbray has his heart set on Bauer then I think we can get away with what we have in that position until January (providing Mowbray feels Rodwell can be involved soonish)

Been a very good window overall though.

[JHRover]

4 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Fair enough. Just on the highlighted, we also signed Davenport and Rodwell for fees. Along with signing a number of key players down to long term deals. Again, all costing money. So even on outlay on transfers upfront now, I would say its more along the lines of a figure between your £5 million and others £10 million, around £7 million I reckon. 

As for the overhaul next season. It won't be as extreme as you are making out it will be. This is an exciting time for the club. 

Yes but Rothwell and Davenport for me fall into a different category to Armstrong and Brereton. They are unproven and relatively cheap deals/low risks. Rothwell has impressed me with his displays and I've no idea what or when Davenport is going to be able to come into the side. I've no idea what is going on with Davenport.

As it stands it will be goodbye to Mulgrew, Downing, Caddis, Whittingham, Gladwin, Palmer, Rodwell, Reed, Evans, Conway and Graham. Irrespective of the abilities of those players we haven't got a big squad now and almost half of it will need replacing from somewhere. A complex and expensive job.

An opportunity and I suppose potentially exciting if we get serious money to do it with but that would, in my opinion, require a budget bigger than the one we've had this summer and serious money spending on multiple positions.

Whilst we can be happy with keeping our better players, adding a few decent ones and handing out some new contracts I'd like to reach a stage where we have a settled SQUAD of our own players who are here for several years and push on. I still think there is too high a turnover.

Good work done but there is scope to do more.

[Exiled in Toronto]

41 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I think I've already said two things on this subject. I also said I would pass judgment when the window was shut.

First off they've surprised me with the Brereton purchase and yes I turned out to be wrong when suggesting our interest was not serious or that multi-million pound bids were not genuine. Well done all round for that one. My cynicism in relation to these owners will not immediately change off the back of a couple of good transfers but I'm happy to be proved wrong many more times if it means more money is invested and we sign more good players.

Did the window exceed my expectations? I suppose in terms of the money we've paid out yes it did, because I never believed we would spend what we did on Brereton and Armstrong (even though I still believe it is short of the £9-10 million some people are claiming, probably more towards £5 million with add ons down the line).

Still it is movement in the right direction.

In terms of those players we have brought in overall I'm happy with the type and quality. The big ones for me are Armstrong and Brereton as long term signings, and I would have liked more long term signings rather than short term as I can forsee another major overhaul next summer.

I would have liked and would still like a couple more - a back up GK/CB and another option up top - so I'm not 100% satisfied no - I don't think anyone at any club ever can be as there is always room to improve further - of importance here is the manager saying he wanted 4-5 more players and to date we've added 3, of which one is Rodwell, and Reed is only a loan.

So happy with the money invested, happy with most of those brought in, but think more could and hopefully will be done.

 

You might have spared us several thousand words of conspiracy theories then.

[roverandout]

As long as the cluck off when we go up..im happy

[JHRover]

14 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

You might have spared us several thousand words of conspiracy theories then.

Of course, because nothing dodgy or untoward has happened around Rovers under this regime has it?

[Exiled in Toronto]

26 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Of course, because nothing dodgy or untoward has happened around Rovers under this regime has it?

I don’t think it’s too happy clappy to observe that the last 12-15 months have been somewhat different to the previous seven years; that Tony Mowbray has nothing whatsoever in common with Steve Kean; that Waggott isn’t Agnew; that Venkys (who visit Ewood as often as the Queen) have done nothing in that time other than send money to be well invested by the best manager since Hughes.

Does this erase the previous 7 years? No. Is it logical to think that nothing at all has changed since then? No.

The catalyst was clearly the two accountancy consulting firms coming in. That was VERY different, and everything has been different since.

[yeti-dog]

48 minutes ago, roverandout said:

As long as the cluck off when we go up..im happy

Don't be naive - the last thing they'll do if we do get promoted is feck off. That's their chance to start to claw some money back.. 

[Hasta]

2 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Told what, by who? They were/are in a bubble in India. Why would those on the ground at the club tell them that things were gone to shit? 

 

John Williams in the leaked letter.