A comprehensive look at our defensive transfer dealings under Venky’s

[Miller11]

There seems to be a lot of debate on the January window thread around this, but I’m not sure it’s getting to the root of the issues.

Below is a table showing all our defensive ingoings and outgoings since that look took over.

Pascal Chimbonda	Inherited	Released
Martin Olsson	Inherited	£4,000,000
Chris Samba	Inherited	£11,000,000
Ryan Nelsen	Inherited	Released
Gael Givet	Inherited	Released
Michel Salgado	Inherited	Released
Phil Jones	Inherited	£17,000,000
Grant Hanley	Inherited	£5,500,000
Gavin Gunning	Inherited	Nominal
Zurab Khizanishvili	Inherited	Released
Myles Anderson	Nominal	Released
Bruno Ribiero	Free	Free
Scott Dann	£5,500,000	£2,600,000
Adam Henley	Youth	Released
Marcus Olsson	Free	£700,000
Bradley Orr	Nominal	Released
Nuno Henrique	Nominal	Free
Karim Rekic	Loan	Loan End
Ryan Edwards	Youth	Released
Anthony O'Connor	Youth	Free
Jack O'Connell	Youth	£300,000
Todd Kane	Loan	Loan End
Matthew Killgallon	Free	Released
Tommy Spurr	Free	Free
Yann Songo'o	Free	Free
Michael Keane	Loan	Loan End
Shane Duffy	£400,000	£4,000,000
Alex Baptiste	Loan	Loan End
Doneil Henry	Loan	Loan End
Elliott Ward	Free	Released
Gordon Greer	Free	Released
Derrick Williams	£250,000	Still Here
Charlie Mulgrew	Free	Still Here
Wes Brown	Free	Released
Stephen Hendrie	Loan	Loan End
Tommie Hoban	Loan	Loan End
Paul Downing	Undisclosed	Loaned Out
Paul Caddis	Free	Released
Sam Hart	Undisclosed	Loaned Out
Amari Bell	£300,000	Still Here
Jack Rodwell	Free	Still Here
TOTALS	£ 6,450,000.00	£ 45,100,000.00

This list obviously doesn’t include Wharton, Grayson, Lenihan or Nyambe. None of whom cost us anything. The figures above are as accurate as I could find in these days of undisclosed fees... I’d confidently predict we paid nowhere near £350,000 combined for Hart and Downing.

In my opinion this shows that failing to address our defensive frailties is an issue that has existed long before Tony Mowbray. If you take Scott Dann out of the equation our net spend in 8 years on our defence is utterly pathetic. And let’s not forget Dann was signed in silly season when they first took over.

I remember when they sacked Allardyce, that woman came out with some sort of tripe about how he couldn’t improve our “young skilful players”, and I’m pretty sure they have also been quoted as saying something along the lines of “We like exciting, young attacking players”.

For their entire wretched tenure we have had a make do and mend approach to our defence. I know Rodwell has looked decent the last few games (that makes me wonder how good he might be in his actual position), but he’s just the latest in a fairly long string of players stuck in our back four who are in reality being played out of position.

It’s took a long time for Travis to get a real crack in a midfield spot, whereas Nyambe and Lenihan, and before them the likes of Hanley (and to a lesser degree Henley) were pretty quickly blooded in the first team, often out of necessity.

And there are defenders out there. We could have spent a fraction of what we did on Brereton in the summer and got Ezri Konsa from Charlton. We were heavily linked with Bauer, but apparently couldn’t come to terms on a fee. Other championship sides are picking up decent frees this window.

I think it’s worth remembering who those silly contractual issues that sprung up in their early days involved: Nelsen, Salgado, Givet, Andrews and Roberts... three defenders and at the time our two most maligned and least fashionable players.

Whether it is their own stupidity, some advice they are taking, or some other inexplicable reason, Venky’s seem to have a real issue with signing defenders, particularly for any financial outlay.

 

[Stuart]

Excellent post. You are definitely on to something.

Money can be sanctioned for attacking players but seemingly very little elsewhere.

Rhodes

Brereton

Armstrong

Dack

Samuel

Bell

These are the players we have spent money on in the last three years. Bell being the odd one out and we keep trying to play him as a wingback. “Yes, Madame, he is an attacking player”.

The last defender they spent money on - Shane Duffy - was sold for more than double the fee paid.

All very strange.

[bluebruce]

A fine post, well researched (heard different fees for a couple of them, but you just can't get the truth these days). A couple of things though.

You say other Champs clubs are picking up decent frees in defence this window, but the thrust of what you're saying is essentially criticising doing frees as your bulk business. Just seemed incongruous with your point.

A lot of the big money sales were in the Prem days, where it was a different ball game monetarily. Granted there was still insufficient reinvestment in the defence, but that was happened in other areas too. That period was short lived and distorts the figures. I'd be more interested to see the figures stacked up since relegation.

Regardless, extremely damning that when you take out Dann (flop, sold for a loss but still half his fee back) our net spend is a shameful 1 million over that whole period on an area that covers 4 of our 11 positions. Criminal. It's also been a clear achilles heel for years.

[S8 & Blue]

I reckon our net spend in other positions is just as bad or even worse.

[tomphil]

Over all I reckon the in's and outs money wise more or less tally under this lot but that list tells a story about how we've often bumbled along with what we've had in defence and never actually set out to build a good one. 

No wonder we've mostly struggled and it's odd given the types of managers we've often had aside from Kean and Coyle who had no tactics whatsoever. Appleton, Bowyer, Lambert, Mowbray all can be described as conservative in their approach to games yet non seem to genuinely want to build from the back.  We go on about under achieving under GB and a perceived lack of drive to go and grab games by the scruff but then just as now it was the defence and leaking poor goals that cost us time and time again.

 

 

[47er]

11 hours ago, Miller11 said:

There seems to be a lot of debate on the January window thread around this, but I’m not sure it’s getting to the root of the issues.

Below is a table showing all our defensive ingoings and outgoings since that look took over.

Pascal Chimbonda	Inherited	Released
Martin Olsson	Inherited	£4,000,000
Chris Samba	Inherited	£11,000,000
Ryan Nelsen	Inherited	Released
Gael Givet	Inherited	Released
Michel Salgado	Inherited	Released
Phil Jones	Inherited	£17,000,000
Grant Hanley	Inherited	£5,500,000
Gavin Gunning	Inherited	Nominal
Zurab Khizanishvili	Inherited	Released
Myles Anderson	Nominal	Released
Bruno Ribiero	Free	Free
Scott Dann	£5,500,000	£2,600,000
Adam Henley	Youth	Released
Marcus Olsson	Free	£700,000
Bradley Orr	Nominal	Released
Nuno Henrique	Nominal	Free
Karim Rekic	Loan	Loan End
Ryan Edwards	Youth	Released
Anthony O'Connor	Youth	Free
Jack O'Connell	Youth	£300,000
Todd Kane	Loan	Loan End
Matthew Killgallon	Free	Released
Tommy Spurr	Free	Free
Yann Songo'o	Free	Free
Michael Keane	Loan	Loan End
Shane Duffy	£400,000	£4,000,000
Alex Baptiste	Loan	Loan End
Doneil Henry	Loan	Loan End
Elliott Ward	Free	Released
Gordon Greer	Free	Released
Derrick Williams	£250,000	Still Here
Charlie Mulgrew	Free	Still Here
Wes Brown	Free	Released
Stephen Hendrie	Loan	Loan End
Tommie Hoban	Loan	Loan End
Paul Downing	Undisclosed	Loaned Out
Paul Caddis	Free	Released
Sam Hart	Undisclosed	Loaned Out
Amari Bell	£300,000	Still Here
Jack Rodwell	Free	Still Here
TOTALS	£ 6,450,000.00	£ 45,100,000.00

This list obviously doesn’t include Wharton, Grayson, Lenihan or Nyambe. None of whom cost us anything. The figures above are as accurate as I could find in these days of undisclosed fees... I’d confidently predict we paid nowhere near £350,000 combined for Hart and Downing.

In my opinion this shows that failing to address our defensive frailties is an issue that has existed long before Tony Mowbray. If you take Scott Dann out of the equation our net spend in 8 years on our defence is utterly pathetic. And let’s not forget Dann was signed in silly season when they first took over.

I remember when they sacked Allardyce, that woman came out with some sort of tripe about how he couldn’t improve our “young skilful players”, and I’m pretty sure they have also been quoted as saying something along the lines of “We like exciting, young attacking players”.

For their entire wretched tenure we have had a make do and mend approach to our defence. I know Rodwell has looked decent the last few games (that makes me wonder how good he might be in his actual position), but he’s just the latest in a fairly long string of players stuck in our back four who are in reality being played out of position.

It’s took a long time for Travis to get a real crack in a midfield spot, whereas Nyambe and Lenihan, and before them the likes of Hanley (and to a lesser degree Henley) were pretty quickly blooded in the first team, often out of necessity.

And there are defenders out there. We could have spent a fraction of what we did on Brereton in the summer and got Ezri Konsa from Charlton. We were heavily linked with Bauer, but apparently couldn’t come to terms on a fee. Other championship sides are picking up decent frees this window.

I think it’s worth remembering who those silly contractual issues that sprung up in their early days involved: Nelsen, Salgado, Givet, Andrews and Roberts... three defenders and at the time our two most maligned and least fashionable players.

Whether it is their own stupidity, some advice they are taking, or some other inexplicable reason, Venky’s seem to have a real issue with signing defenders, particularly for any financial outlay.

 

That is just so revealing. It also brings back so many bad memories!   😢

[Mr. E]

Which is scandalous, because you start building a team from the defense up. Venkys obviously don't, never did, and never will have our best interests at heart, not that that was ever disputed.

[philipl]

Anderson wasn't inherited but otherwise brilliant work.

Letting Jack O'Connell go stands out as crazy.

Salgado was treated shabbily

Edited January 26 by philipl

[bluebruce]

On Fri Jan 25 2019 at 08:12, tomphil said:

Over all I reckon the in's and outs money wise more or less tally under this lot

 

Do you?? As in, the ins and outs are similar total figures? I highly doubt that. Surely we have recouped at least double what we have spent in fees. Venkys' losses have been in covering wages (and at one time, agent fees) with so little natural income at the club.

[tomphil]

40 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

Do you?? As in, the ins and outs are similar total figures? I highly doubt that. Surely we have recouped at least double what we have spent in fees. Venkys' losses have been in covering wages (and at one time, agent fees) with so little natural income at the club.

It was after they signed Rhodes but I think I've blotted out the fact that they pretty much only sold players after that so yes you're probably right !

[bluebruce]

25 minutes ago, tomphil said:

It was after they signed Rhodes but I think I've blotted out the fact that they pretty much only sold players after that so yes you're probably right !

Even Rhodes was sold at a profit, and we sold several of the players in the list for more than we bought Rhodes for. I can only think of a few who we spent money on to make a loss.

[Miker]

How much did we spend on defenders pre-Venky's though? 

Our best defenders in recent times have all either been promoted from the youth team or brought in for small fees (or no fee at all). Dann being the only exception to that.

[tomphil]

All down to who's doing the recruiting really, Hughes had his rabbits out the hat moments with Nelson and Samba but Allardyce spent on Givet and big wages on Salgado as well as getting in a few others with the Warnock sale money.

[Miller11]

I’m bringing this thread back. Was going to edit, but seems pointless as the figures remain the same with Adarabioyo in on loan, Downing off on a free and God knows what’s happening with Rodwell.

Nothing will please me more than a barrage of comments full of ridicule and I told you so’s if the 9 year trend is bucked in the next 50 hours. Can’t see it happening though.

[Dreams of 1995]

This post also goes a long, long way to settling some of the downright baseless and undeserved remarks about Mowbray the past couple of days.

Our inability to solve our defensive issues has been about since THEY came, not since Mowbray came, and I genuinely believed the man when he said defenders are coming. There is clearly no appetite for signing defenders with our owners.

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

This post also goes a long, long way to settling some of the downright baseless and undeserved remarks about Mowbray the past couple of days.

Our inability to solve our defensive issues has been about since THEY came, not since Mowbray came, and I genuinely believed the man when he said defenders are coming. There is clearly no appetite for signing defenders with our owners.

 

I wonder though, do they even know enough about football to know the difference between a forward and an attacker from a potential sales point of view? Maybe the auditors put a line in their recommendations, but that would only cover from when they carried out those 2 audits. Prior to Mowbray we were pretty much spending nothing on any area of the team, not just the defence. You could say the summer under Coyle we spent all our budget on a defender in Williams...

It's all very odd. What I do know is if we don't sign at least 1 by Friday, we are fooked. 

[JacknOry]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I wonder though, do they even know enough about football to know the difference between a forward and an attacker from a potential sales point of view? Maybe the auditors put a line in their recommendations, but that would only cover from when they carried out those 2 audits. Prior to Mowbray we were pretty much spending nothing on any area of the team, not just the defence. You could say the summer under Coyle we spent all our budget on a defender in Williams...

It's all very odd. What I do know is if we don't sign at least 1 by Friday, we are fooked. 

Especially once Lenihan and Mulgrew both rock up with their inevitable injuries at some point. 

[Miller11]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

This post also goes a long, long way to settling some of the downright baseless and undeserved remarks about Mowbray the past couple of days.

Our inability to solve our defensive issues has been about since THEY came, not since Mowbray came, and I genuinely believed the man when he said defenders are coming. There is clearly no appetite for signing defenders with our owners.

 

Having sat there and seen and heard Mowbray make the infamous “defenders are coming” speech, I too cannot believe he has made an about turn without something behind the scenes happening. If he didn’t select Bennett over Nyambe I don’t think there’s be any decent argument that he wasn’t desperate to sort out the defence but is being hamstrung.

That quote will be getting brought up a lot over the next few weeks I imagine, and I guarantee it will at the next consultation meeting.

[Gavlar Somerset Rover!]

Just now, Miller11 said:

That quote will be getting brought up a lot over the next few weeks I imagine, and I guarantee it will at the next consultation meeting.

I can only predict to save face they’ll lay the blame at Williams and Nyambe’s door - Williams for his end of season form and Nyambe for his performances at Afcon. The club won’t have a leg to stand on but this will be the party line. 

If we don’t bring any more defenders in and we’re struggling big time then perhaps he would walk. If he is being denied by the owners and getting the can for it from the fans, then you’d imagine he’ll feel extremely pressured and angry.

Edited August 6 by Gavlar Somerset Rover!

[JacknOry]

It's odd though, if it is indeed the Venkies that don't want us to sign big and ugly CB's due to a perceived lack of resale value, why are they then handing out contracts to 35 and 32 year old midfielders? Nothing really against those signings but we could quite easily have done similar at CB. Really think we just expected that Bauer was to sign for us and he felt that would be enough with a possible PL kid loan (Tosin). 

[windymiller7]

If this is the case, someone should just email them the links to details of the transfers of Harry Maguire, Virgil Van Dyke etc. If that doesn't change opinions then nothing will!

[JacknOry]

2 hours ago, windymiller7 said:

If this is the case, someone should just email them the links to details of the transfers of Harry Maguire, Virgil Van Dyke etc. If that doesn't change opinions then nothing will!

Even in this league alone clubs have bought or sold defenders such as the following:

Webster 21 million

Kelly 14 million

Konsa 13 million

Kalas 9 million

Beilik 8 million

 

[Stuart]

On 06/08/2019 at 16:52, Dreams of 1995 said:

This post also goes a long, long way to settling some of the downright baseless and undeserved remarks about Mowbray the past couple of days.

Our inability to solve our defensive issues has been about since THEY came, not since Mowbray came, and I genuinely believed the man when he said defenders are coming. There is clearly no appetite for signing defenders with our owners.

If it is true and he puts up with being undermined in the transfer stakes then he is complicit.

The buck stops with the manager, always has, always will.

[lraC]

On ‎06‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 17:20, Miller11 said:

Having sat there and seen and heard Mowbray make the infamous “defenders are coming” speech, I too cannot believe he has made an about turn without something behind the scenes happening. If he didn’t select Bennett over Nyambe I don’t think there’s be any decent argument that he wasn’t desperate to sort out the defence but is being hamstrung.

That quote will be getting brought up a lot over the next few weeks I imagine, and I guarantee it will at the next consultation meeting.

That's exactly why I firmly believe that they owners have not learned their lessons. I am convinced Mowbray would not have said what he did, had he not meant it, but here we are 3 months later and it hasn't been sorted. There are still outside influences in my opinion, affecting what goes on and that has happened since the very day the owners turned up. 

Edited August 8 by lraC