Mowbray: Stay or go?

[blueboy3333]

5 hours ago, deryck guyler's spoon said:

A few weeks ago we engaged on the subject of TM and I asked why you were so down on him. To paraphrase you said something to the effect that you liked him but you didn't buy his "open, honest" reputation and that you believed that he'd say what was necessary to placate the fans and the owners. How have you gone from that to this which seems to suggest that, at best, he's underhand and at worst he's corrupt?

 

By the way you did great work on finding his quote on leaving Coventry and I admit that it shook my confidence in him.  

Cheers, I aim to please. 

Try not to be so sensitive. Suggesting someone is interested in building a good pension is hardly the same as calling someone corrupt. We all need a little nest egg, and if that comes through finishing in the bottom half year after year and dumbing down expectation then so be it. It's pays to be prudent(ial). 

I hope this response has cleared up any misunderstanding.

[Atko's Engine]

9 hours ago, 47er said:

Strawman alert!

No-one expects perfection and TM hasn't come anywhere near it.

So after all that effort, explanation & logic, this is all I get back?! I'll not try so hard next time...! ?

Seriously though, perfection was perhaps the wrong word to use, but the expectations of the majority on here who want TM out ought to be reeled in IMO. The nuts & bolts are that he nearly kept us up with the odds stacked against him, got us promoted 1st time of asking when many on here expected him / the club to fail, and then has kept us up relatively comfortably. The future's brighter than it has been for 5 or 6 years; he's put us in that position and deserves the chance next season to try to see it through to the next phase.

Changes are needed player wise; the L1 core needs dismantling and first teamers brought in in key areas, and TM has admitted as much (I agree the proof will be in the pudding). The style of play needs to evolve, as he's alluded to and shown evidence latterly of putting into practise. Youth is being given a chance. He needs fans to support him and back his bigger picture, not jump on his back every time he gets something wrong. This season has been an inconsistent rollercoaster, but the bigger picture has been a stable and progressive one since his appointment (which I was underwhelmed with by the way).

He might not take us up but he absolutely deserves the chance to try. 

There's a cautionary tale to note from last season too. Ipswich & Norwich finished 12th & 14th respectively, both on 60 points (which just happens to be TM's stated target for this season); the former potted their manager due to a supposed lack of ambition / poor style of play under his watch, whereas the latter stuck with theirs despite gettingflak from many fans, which spilled over into this season. Neither team will be playing Championship football next season; I know which one I'd rather be!

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I agree that " Changes are needed players wise ". What worries me is his past record which is hardly glowing in this respect. He appears to need to sign 5 players to get 1 good enough to actually hold down a place in the team.

[K-Hod]

My main concern was in January, we were in a great position to kick on, yet Mowbray said ‘we had enough in the squad’. When we let defenders out on loan and relied on defenders with chequered injury records. 

So many said that was a bad idea.

Nobody was saying we should be going up, or we’re entitled to, or anything like that. Only that, we could have done better. Not to mention strange team selections, playing players out of position to accommodate weaker players and some horrendous defending, shipping late goals and a truly wretched away record.

McLaren got sacked for having a similar record to Mowbray, so let’s not pretend our fans are unique, mental, or unreasonable, because we aren’t.

[tomphil]

6 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

Cheers, I aim to please. 

Try not to be so sensitive. Suggesting someone is interested in building a good pension is hardly the same as calling someone corrupt. We all need a little nest egg, and if that comes through finishing in the bottom half year after year and dumbing down expectation then so be it. It's pays to be prudent(ial). 

I hope this response has cleared up any misunderstanding.

Comfort zone is perhaps the word you're looking for to make any easily offended understand ?

Once one has been created it takes an experienced old head to roll with the punches and stay in it but it can be done.

[deryck guyler's spoon]

6 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

Cheers, I aim to please. 

Try not to be so sensitive. Suggesting someone is interested in building a good pension is hardly the same as calling someone corrupt. We all need a little nest egg, and if that comes through finishing in the bottom half year after year and dumbing down expectation then so be it. It's pays to be prudent(ial). 

I hope this response has cleared up any misunderstanding.

Try not to critique people's personalities when faced with a legitimate question.

You're one of the main contributors on here and your content is 90% negativity towards the manager. Some of it, in my opinion is unfounded ("finishing in the bottom half year after year"?) so I think it's reasonable to ask why.

For what it's worth, I have lost faith in him and think we can  do better but suggesting that he's at the club purely to feather his nest has no basis in fact and being asked why you posted that seem fairly reasonable.  

[blueboy3333]

Just now, deryck guyler's spoon said:

Try not to critique people's personalities when faced with a legitimate question.

You're one of the main contributors on here and your content is 90% negativity towards the manager. Some of it, in my opinion is unfounded ("finishing in the bottom half year after year"?) so I think it's reasonable to ask why.

For what it's worth, I have lost faith in him and think we can  do better but suggesting that he's at the club purely to feather his nest has no basis in fact and being asked why you posted that seem fairly reasonable.  

When you have a legitimate question I will be able to ignore your enduring over-sensitivity on Tony's behalf. 

And you never asked me why I criticise him. You suggested I said he was corrupt. 

[Roverthechimp]

In all fairness Evans and Smallwood looked reasonable enough during quite a few games in first half of session. Likewise Mulgrew seems to have deterioated or the opposition have figured him out.

Rothwell - while i respect the opinions of others i can only comment that prior to the last games he has been total liability in giving the ball away in dangerous areas.

Eliminate that and he'll be great.

Mowbray stays for me - we overachieved for a while and the underachieved. 14th place prior to the season and i would have snatched your hand off... ?

[Atko's Engine]

I agree that letting Downing leave and / or not adding a CB was a misjudgment, which was brought into sharp focus by losing both Mulgrew & Lenihan almost immediately after the window shut. I get people questioning that.  And some of his tactics & team selections have surprised & disappointed me.  But that's happened with most managers down the years, it's normal. 

TM has his flaws, don't we all? Time will tell if he can achieve what we all hope he can, but IMO he absolutely deserves the chance to try and I find it quite disappointing that given what he's achieved here against the odds, the majority on this board don't wish to see him have the chance to realise that opportunity.  I know the club isn't here to be a vehicle for his ego, but I think he's a good fit for this club and he is going the right way about building a solid basis in which to build a solid tilt for promotion over the next 1/2 seasons.

[DE.]

Our away form is the most obvious concern. Most goals shipped in the division which is obviously a massive warning sign even if we finish in a reasonable position this season. We've actually scored one more goal away from home (29 to 28) so we need to find a way to bring our reasonable tight home performances on the road. Conceding 26 more goals away from home with only 5 wins suggests however we are setting up outside of Ewood is not working. I think it's the biggest difference in terms of goals conceded home/away in the entire division. Even Wigan with only one away win this season have shipped 3 less goals than us on the road with a difference of 22 compared to only conceding 20 at home. 

[47er]

2 hours ago, Atko's Engine said:

So after all that effort, explanation & logic, this is all I get back?! I'll not try so hard next time...! ?

Seriously though, perfection was perhaps the wrong word to use, but the expectations of the majority on here who want TM out ought to be reeled in IMO. The nuts & bolts are that he nearly kept us up with the odds stacked against him, got us promoted 1st time of asking when many on here expected him / the club to fail, and then has kept us up relatively comfortably. The future's brighter than it has been for 5 or 6 years; he's put us in that position and deserves the chance next season to try to see it through to the next phase.

Changes are needed player wise; the L1 core needs dismantling and first teamers brought in in key areas, and TM has admitted as much (I agree the proof will be in the pudding). The style of play needs to evolve, as he's alluded to and shown evidence latterly of putting into practise. Youth is being given a chance. He needs fans to support him and back his bigger picture, not jump on his back every time he gets something wrong. This season has been an inconsistent rollercoaster, but the bigger picture has been a stable and progressive one since his appointment (which I was underwhelmed with by the way).

He might not take us up but he absolutely deserves the chance to try. 

There's a cautionary tale to note from last season too. Ipswich & Norwich finished 12th & 14th respectively, both on 60 points (which just happens to be TM's stated target for this season); the former potted their manager due to a supposed lack of ambition / poor style of play under his watch, whereas the latter stuck with theirs despite gettingflak from many fans, which spilled over into this season. Neither team will be playing Championship football next season; I know which one I'd rather be!

"He might not take us up but he absolutely deserves the chance to try. "

I've actually said that more than once myself and that's the way I voted. I accept you wrote a long and well-reasoned post, hence I only responded to a little section of it!

You yourself admitted you used the wrong word so I don't think we're arguing about much do you?

However, and we may disagree here, he'll have to substantially lift his game next season or the lives will be out in force. Some bewildering decisions and talk in recent times have undermined my faith in him, in particular his misguided loyalty to players who clearly are not good enough which, in turn, has led to the exclusion of players we should be playing.Does anyone disagree with that?

[philipl]

The remaining games this season will tell a huge amount. They are all potential defeats as much as they are all winnable, including Norwich given it is the penultimate game.

If Mowbray is mentally rigid and has not learnt anything we won't get past 60 points and I will very reluctantly be in the Mowbray out camp.

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by philipl

[blueboy3333]

9 hours ago, Atko's Engine said:

I find it quite disappointing that given what he's achieved here against the odds,

Against the odds? He had a big budget by L1 standards. The wage budget was the biggest in the division, and 3x larger than most teams. He kept all his good players after going down, players who are performing well in the Championship, and was also allowed to spend big money for a L1 side on Dack. There was nothing 'against the odds' about our promotion.

What he did do well was to galvanise the club, and the fan base. He also did well to galvanise the squad, keep them at the club and keep them motivated in a league some of them were too good for. 

The signs were always there though, even in L1. Bizarre, negative team selections and tactics. Bizarre signings (Whittingham - what was that all about in the shithouse of L1) and bizarre justifications (Oldham's Cafu ? ). 

Now? We don't have the best players in the league anymore and he has fundamentally failed to address the glaring issue in the side (the defence and goalkeeper). We'll not mention BB because some still think that was prudent business (!) but his transfer dealings overall have been underwhelming, and when he has signed people with a bit of something he doesn't play them anyway. 

His tactic of playing Evans and Smallwood at home has not worked for months, yet he persisted with it for a long, long time. His justification that he plays them because the 'stop counter attacks' summed up his approach in a nutshell.  The Sheff Utd's manager comments the other day were brilliant - he criticised his team for not trying to win and for not being positive - that criticism could be labelled at Mowbray every single game. Mowbray sends his team out not to lose, he doesn't send them out to win.

He has done some things very well as stated earlier, but in order to progress he will have to fundamentally change his approach. He is far too negative in his team selections, and too rigid in his thinking (He likes to play 2 and a half attackers because it keeps us solid - absolute joke). His recruitment will also have to be a lot, lot better than the shit show that was last summer. 

You still have faith, fair enough, I have no faith he will change and improve. He's not going anywhere though so we'll see how it pans out....

 

[Atko's Engine]

8 hours ago, 47er said:

You yourself admitted you used the wrong word so I don't think we're arguing about much do you?

Probably not in that case; I just get so frustrated that TM is criticised so vehemently by so many at the drop of a hat, yet doesn't get credit for the good stuff (or if he does its very grudging and with caveats).  People have forgotten the "then" of when he arrived compared to the "now" of where we are under his stewardship.  

8 hours ago, 47er said:

However, and we may disagree here, he'll have to substantially lift his game next season or the lives will be out in force

He needs to prove he can develop this club further yes, totally agree, and that includes making 3 or 4 first 11 signings. But the whole premise of this thread is whether he should have the chance to do that (which I get is every fan's right to pose the question) and the 60/40 majority against TM is, I think, ignoring and underestimating the bigger picture of what he has achieved in adversity given the state he found us in.

So I guess you and I agree, but 60% on here think differently!

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Atko's Engine said:

Probably not in that case; I just get so frustrated that TM is criticised so vehemently by so many at the drop of a hat, yet doesn't get credit for the good stuff (or if he does its very grudging and with caveats).  People have forgotten the "then" of when he arrived compared to the "now" of where we are under his stewardship.  

He needs to prove he can develop this club further yes, totally agree, and that includes making 3 or 4 first 11 signings. But the whole premise of this thread is whether he should have the chance to do that (which I get is every fan's right to pose the question) and the 60/40 majority against TM is, I think, ignoring and underestimating the bigger picture of what he has achieved in adversity given the state he found us in.

The premise of your argument is fundamentally wrong. You think he's inherited a load of pub footballers in the Prem. He didn't, he inherited the best footballers in L1 (eventually) and was able to add some other top L1 footballers. 

This thread is about peoples faith in his ability to take us forward. That's what people are commenting on. 

[JacknOry]

Just now, Atko's Engine said:

Probably not in that case; I just get so frustrated that TM is criticised so vehemently by so many at the drop of a hat, yet doesn't get credit for the good stuff (or if he does its very grudging and with caveats).  People have forgotten the "then" of when he arrived compared to the "now" of where we are under his stewardship.  

He needs to prove he can develop this club further yes, totally agree, and that includes making 3 or 4 first 11 signings. But the whole premise of this thread is whether he should have the chance to do that (which I get is every fan's right to pose the question) and the 60/40 majority against TM is, I think, ignoring and underestimating the bigger picture of what he has achieved in adversity given the state he found us in.

So I guess you and I agree, but 60% on here think differently!

As Blueboy pointed out above with the "Against all odds", and now with your "has achieved in adversity", I think you're being a little hyperbolic.

He has been backed far more than most managers before him under the Venky reign. No players have been sold underneath him and he was able to keep his best players and actually 'sign' some in L1 for actual money. We spent more than anyone else in L1 and have spent circa 10 million for his first season back in the Championship - I really do not see that as adversity or against the odds. We're in the top 10 on net spend in the division this season.

Admittedly, it may be TM and his integrity that has persuaded the V's to get behind him but to suggest that he is in the same boat as some of his predecessors is just wrong. He has it better than practically all managers before him under this lot post-bald-headed prat.

People have concerns with his recruitment which as been quite poor in general - especially spunking 7 million on a rarely used substitute when all of sundry could see that we needed a regular starter/competition for DG and some major work on the defense. His tactics and negative lineups are another concern. Its amazing that once he finally abandoned the Smallwood/Evans partnership in midfield we broke out of the 'worst run any manager has had points wise under the Venky's' and started winning matches again.

This summer is massive in terms of recruitment but i'm not confident we will get the surgery that we need.  

[DE.]

TM received plenty of praise when he got us promoted and similarly during the start of this season, not to mention when we were in reach of the playoffs at the end of January. I don't understand how anybody could expect positive reactions to losing 9 out of 11 games. Yes we've had a couple of decent wins in the last couple of games but our form between Nov/Dec and Feb/Mar was and should continue to be a big concern. If we start off next season with that kind of run we will be in huge trouble, and does anyone really think our squad is going to have the bottle for a relegation battle? I certainly don't. 

[47er]

1 hour ago, Atko's Engine said:

Probably not in that case; I just get so frustrated that TM is criticised so vehemently by so many at the drop of a hat, yet doesn't get credit for the good stuff (or if he does its very grudging and with caveats).  People have forgotten the "then" of when he arrived compared to the "now" of where we are under his stewardship.  

He needs to prove he can develop this club further yes, totally agree, and that includes making 3 or 4 first 11 signings. But the whole premise of this thread is whether he should have the chance to do that (which I get is every fan's right to pose the question) and the 60/40 majority against TM is, I think, ignoring and underestimating the bigger picture of what he has achieved in adversity given the state he found us in.

So I guess you and I agree, but 60% on here think differently!

Ok, he needs to make 3 or 4 signings---I'd say at least. But, they have to be capable of going straight into the first team replacing his mates not merely giving them competition.

Secondly he has to play them and thirdly they must be allowed to give of their best in their strongest position-------no central strikers on the wing, no midfielders at centre-back, no Chapman on the right wing. I could go on!

This has to be TM's last chance, and I am not confident. If I thought for a minute that Venkys had a genuinely good manager lined up, I would not hesitate to support that but 

I'm a realist.

[tomphil]

It's a difficult one with TM because in many ways he creates a rod for his own back or should we say a stick to be beaten with.

He goes on record  going back to last season after promotion was secured in saying we need a few better players to come straight in for the Championship and he says there'll be money to spend.  He then back tracks and uses the money to lavish new contracts all over the squad and then says we only need to bring in players who can help those already there i'e back ups.   He still says there's money but won't spend for the sake of it......then commits 7 million on a kid on the back of a few games showing potential in a season at Forest.

He then says there's was still more money but wouldn't spend it for the sake of it yet he hasn't sorted a defence that took us down and was still a weak point last season despite promotion.  He also doesn't bring in any striker with any sort of Championship pedigree on loan or otherwise despite us crying out for genuine back up to our ageing reliable marksman.

Before anything else these are recurring things that he's constantly talked a lot about but then his actions always scream 'as you were' so it's not hard to see why a lot of fans get a bit aggravated.

Trying to solve these problems won't turn us into promotion contenders overnight but they need addressing just to keep us competitive next season.

[Bigdoggsteel]

In fairness, things will hit a head one way or another next season. He has said that he wants us to compete for promotion and I think we will have a good idea after 10 game if that is happening. I don't think he will stay if we start very poorly. 

The main thing is he needs to sign 2-3 players to come straight in an improve the first 11. Also start adding the youngsters into the mix from Saturday. Hopefully Buckley and Chapman feature.  Start Brereton as well. 

[JHRover]

'We were down on numbers for a spell, we had a defensive crisis really and lost some tight games'

'People throw statistics at you, and that's fine because they are factual, but from perspective the team had done so well for so long but we've got players back fit and won back-to-back games'

'We just have to make sure we can improve our strength in depth so when key players get injured they are being replaced'

Alarming comments again today from Mowbray. Seems to be approaching things on the basis that the first XI is absolutely fine and our only work needs to be on brining in more depth, rather than radically improving our team. He also seems to be under the impression our horrible run of results was down to injuries and the improvement is down to the return of certain 'players'. With the exception of Darragh Lenihan I'm not sure who he is referring to here.

 

[OJRovers]

I won’t be holding my breath for Mowbray giving Buckley/Butterworth/Chapman much of a chance next season.

Lest we forget that Travis only got a continued run in the side because Smallwood got a 3 game ban. Otherwise he would probably have been loaned out in Jan.

[Bigdoggsteel]

He said in an interview the other day that some of the under 23s will feature in the upcoming games. At that point, it's up to them. If they do as well as Travis, he can't ignore them. 

[Mattyblue]

We need an UPGRADED left back, centre half, possibly right back, central midfielder (as Reed won’t be seen again) and another striker - as we cannot go into another season with 1 proper forward (a 34 year old one to boot).

That’s before you start to look at ‘adding a bit of depth’.

[DE.]

21 minutes ago, JHRover said:

'We were down on numbers for a spell, we had a defensive crisis really and lost some tight games'

'People throw statistics at you, and that's fine because they are factual, but from perspective the team had done so well for so long but we've got players back fit and won back-to-back games'

'We just have to make sure we can improve our strength in depth so when key players get injured they are being replaced'

Alarming comments again today from Mowbray. Seems to be approaching things on the basis that the first XI is absolutely fine and our only work needs to be on brining in more depth, rather than radically improving our team. He also seems to be under the impression our horrible run of results was down to injuries and the improvement is down to the return of certain 'players'. With the exception of Darragh Lenihan I'm not sure who he is referring to here.

Just out-and-out revisionism. The reason we've looked much better is because we dropped Mulgrew, Smallwood and for the Derby game Evans as well - three of Tony's favourites, and we actually gave Rothwell a chance to shine along with the rarely used Travis/Reed combo in midfield against Derby. Nothing to do with an injury crisis. He's gotten it repeatedly wrong and whilst I wouldn't expect him to say so in public, I'm not convinced in his own mind he thinks he's done anything wrong either. "Facts aside we've done well". OK then.