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Phil Jones To Leave Utd - Sell On Clause?

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Just now, USABlue said:

I think Jones left a season or two too early and I think that has in the long term been detrimental to him long term.

Fergie ruined him, he signed a very promising young CB and played him at RB, DMC for ages. Signing for united was a mistake, he should have gone elsewhere.

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On 20/06/2019 at 15:13, Stuart said:

I agree with this.

Mowbray’s handling of younger players has been a smudge on his record at Rovers IMHO. Then again, he thinks 24 is young so 19 is barely out of junior football.

He also can’t sort out our defence so the thought of youngsters racing forward while a couple of agricultural centre halves keep guard seems a distant hope.

I would love to see Johnson replace Lowe as first team coach and see if he can influence our approach. It seems oxymoronic for Mowbray to have him developing U23 players in a style of play that he doesn’t or can’t deploy in the first team.

Great post and echoes my sentimemts on TM.  I think mentally he is a massive de-motivator to our young ones.  They are not stupid they see the quality, or lack there of, that some of Mobary's sweethearts posses.  Surely that can lead to a why bother feeling in some.  As I've said before sometimes there has to actually be a carrot on the end of the string.  Chances are few and far between for some of em.  DJ needs to bend Mowbary's ear a bit more perhaps.

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On 20/06/2019 at 07:34, S8 & Blue said:

No he didn't. He was knocking on the door and got a start, virtually ever present since.

I think we do pretty well with our youth players tbh. Jones was special, and remember we were a top 10 PL side at the time...

If Hanley/Nyambe/Raya/Lenihan/Travis were operating at that level there's a very good chance they'd have been moving to big sides for big money too.

Not that i'd want them to!

You maybe mistaken, as I recall before his breakthrough all talk was of possibly loaning him out.

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Just now, Dr X said:

Fergie ruined him, he signed a very promising young CB and played him at RB, DMC for ages. Signing for united was a mistake, he should have gone elsewhere.

Remember him playing DMC for us and playing RB for England.

 

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3 hours ago, USABlue said:

You maybe mistaken, as I recall before his breakthrough all talk was of possibly loaning him out.

Didn’t he get the face on because we wouldn’t let him go on loan?

I might be making that up. 

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I doubt he regrets the move to United at all - probably made enough money to support the next 5 generations of his family and won a boatload of trophies. Hasn't gone as he might have hoped (what with the hype he had at the time) and things might have been different if he stayed a season or two longer with us or went elsewhere but he wont be mulling over that.

Phil Jones, the only guy I know that can gurn without the need of drugs. 

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4 hours ago, dingles staying down 4ever said:

Remember him playing DMC for us and playing RB for England.

 

That he did but he went a good few seasons at united after he moved in every role but CB. You don't become a world class CB as he looked capable of being, by playing in other roles for 3 seasons.

 

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21 minutes ago, Dr X said:

That he did but he went a good few seasons at united after he moved in every role but CB. You don't become a world class CB as he looked capable of being, by playing in other roles for 3 seasons.

 

The mental side of his game is still that of an 19 yr old lad. Maybe he's just not that smart.

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On 20/06/2019 at 20:29, arbitro said:

Travis started at Bramhall Lane on Dec 28th after Evans was rested following the Boxing Day game at Leeds and Travis wasn't even on the bench. Smallwood got himself sent off at Sheffield and got three games. Travis played against West Bromwich on New Years Day, had a blinder and pretty much became a fixture in the team. I don't think he would have become a regular if Smallwood hadn't got himself sent off.

Exactly. Travis wouldn't have gotten his go if it wasn't for injuries and suspensions.

We have to give more youth players game time. We're a division above Manchester United at Under 23's Level, we beat Liverpool, City and Tottenham at 23's level this year too. Why the hell do we keep loaning these players in from these clubs that we have better academies than.

What makes Harry Wilson better than Danny Butterworth? Game time. In August 18 (not even a year ago) I watched Callum Hudson-Odoi get marked out of the game by our 23's defence, and because of game time he now plays for the England first team. He was absolute shite that match at Leyland too.

Edited by JoeHarvey

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11 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

The mental side of his game is still that of an 19 yr old lad. Maybe he's just not that smart.

Indeed. Only have to look at the guy to see that. People can make up all the tired excuses for him they want. Injury proneness isn't entirely his fault I suppose but it's not exactly a prize attribute is it?

 

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On 20/06/2019 at 12:16, JoeHarvey said:

The most frustrating thing to me is that, much like Lewis Travis, Jones just got a run in the team and did well with the time he got. But we give FAR too little game time to our youth players. Imagine if we could churn out even just one PJ every three/four years? I believe we could, but we just don't give out enough chances.

Travis only got into the side because of injuries and suspensions. Now he's a solidified Championship midfielder and in a few years could go for millions.

I don't really follow this, loads of our youth players have had a chance over the last 5-10 years. I'd say more than the average for a championship club.  It's not really a stick you can beat the club with. Current side has 4 regular starters from the youth squad (Raya, Lenihan, Nyambe, Travis).

Only youth player who got bounced by Rovers and went on to have a better career in recent years was O'Connell I think. Mahoney went to Bournemouth but it hasn't worked out.

Fascinating web page here, though some data looks incomplete : https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/blackburn-rovers/jugendarbeit/verein/164

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17 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

I don't really follow this, loads of our youth players have had a chance over the last 5-10 years. I'd say more than the average for a championship club.  It's not really a stick you can beat the club with. Current side has 4 regular starters from the youth squad (Raya, Lenihan, Nyambe, Travis).

Only youth player who got bounced by Rovers and went on to have a better career in recent years was O'Connell I think. Mahoney went to Bournemouth but it hasn't worked out.

Fascinating web page here, though some data looks incomplete : https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/blackburn-rovers/jugendarbeit/verein/164

We constantly let youth players down. Scott Wharton made his first team debut in August 2016, and scored in his second game. It's now been three years and he's not been given a proper chance. Willem Tomlinson, a player who had considerable talent, but not given the chance when he should've been, gone. I watch these players at Leyland/back at Leigh Sports Village a number of years back - they're all of a similar ilk and ability, yet some get the chance and other don't. 

Scott Wharton could easily be our back up (bench) centre-back, but for some reason he isn't, with the right amount of game time he could be a starter just like Travis is now.

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2 hours ago, JoeHarvey said:

We constantly let youth players down. Scott Wharton made his first team debut in August 2016, and scored in his second game. It's now been three years and he's not been given a proper chance. Willem Tomlinson, a player who had considerable talent, but not given the chance when he should've been, gone. I watch these players at Leyland/back at Leigh Sports Village a number of years back - they're all of a similar ilk and ability, yet some get the chance and other don't. 

Scott Wharton could easily be our back up (bench) centre-back, but for some reason he isn't, with the right amount of game time he could be a starter just like Travis is now.

Tomlinson was never going to make it at Rovers' level. He's with league 2 Mansfield at the moment and I'd wager he'll be in the non-league game soon.  Plodder at best 

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2 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

Tomlinson was never going to make it at Rovers' level. He's with league 2 Mansfield at the moment and I'd wager he'll be in the non-league game soon.  Plodder at best 

Because he wasn’t ever given a fair shot. I saw a lot of him, and I’ve seen a lot of Travis. Neither one was a million miles better than the other. One got a run of games and the other didn’t. Simple as

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Just now, JoeHarvey said:

Because he wasn’t ever given a fair shot. I saw a lot of him, and I’ve seen a lot of Travis. Neither one was a million miles better than the other. One got a run of games and the other didn’t. Simple as

Travis has pace, aggression, drive and an eye for a pass. Tomlinson was a scuffler. Sorry. 

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23 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

I don't really follow this, loads of our youth players have had a chance over the last 5-10 years. I'd say more than the average for a championship club.  It's not really a stick you can beat the club with. Current side has 4 regular starters from the youth squad (Raya, Lenihan, Nyambe, Travis).

Only youth player who got bounced by Rovers and went on to have a better career in recent years was O'Connell I think. Mahoney went to Bournemouth but it hasn't worked out.

Fascinating web page here, though some data looks incomplete : https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/blackburn-rovers/jugendarbeit/verein/164

I think people are mostly talking about youth players under our current gaffer. Of the 4 you mention, only Travis was given his debut by TM, the others were already features of the squad if I remember rightly. Travis was about to be loaned out, and given how he has performed, clearly got his chance later than he should have. TM has given a fair few young players their debuts, that much is true. But then (so far) they're barely seen again. Hopefully that changes this season, but if we bring in the four more players we want, it's hard to see who will be given a real chance (ie, a run) in favour of which old guard member. Tony is very conservative about shaking up the established lot. Even when he signs players himself, ones older than our youth players, he has a tendency to take a long time to brave integrating them fully on matchdays. I think the best youth players should be sent out on loan until January if squad needs will allow. All of them, except the established ones (I'll count Nuttall, Brereton and Chapman in that, although I wouldn't be too fussed if one or both of the first two went on loan to League One if we end up with enough proper cover).

As for who we bounce and the careers they go on to have...if you keep hold of a player until he's about 21, barely play him, then release him, you'll never truly know what that player might have been capable of. Just because they don't go onto anything special doesn't mean they weren't capable if handled right. Those years before players reach 21 are critical to their development, and sometimes the harm done can't be reversed.

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Jack O’Connell linked with a big money move to Liverpool, we might have a sell on fee for him.

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How?

I thought we let him go to Brentford, who then sold him to Sheffield Utd?

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32 minutes ago, pick32 said:

Jack O’Connell linked with a big money move to Liverpool, we might have a sell on fee for him.

 

On 20/06/2019 at 14:08, philipl said:

All sell on clauses were traded in for immediate cash- at a discount against their face value, obviously.

According to philipl all sell on clauses have been cashed in.

Not doubting it but not seen any evidence as yet.

Edited by Crimpshrine

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43 minutes ago, MarkBRFC said:

How?

I thought we let him go to Brentford, who then sold him to Sheffield Utd?

Sorry didn’t know he went there first 

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The difference between the abilities of a John Buckley and Lewis Travis are minimal. One is a midfielder who would probably sell for £3m in the current market and the other would struggle to get a League One loan. Why? Game time.

and I’m not saying Buckley should’ve played 20 games, I’m just highlighting that our youth players are pretty good yet only one has really made it in a whole two years under TM.

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59 minutes ago, JoeHarvey said:

The difference between the abilities of a John Buckley and Lewis Travis are minimal. One is a midfielder who would probably sell for £3m in the current market and the other would struggle to get a League One loan. Why? Game time.

and I’m not saying Buckley should’ve played 20 games, I’m just highlighting that our youth players are pretty good yet only one has really made it in a whole two years under TM.

Whilst I appreciate your point that Mowbray has perhaps not utilised a successful academy as much as he might, you are speaking as if the youngsters are robots all of the same ability. When Buckley came on v Bolton he looked miles away. And as Jim said, the fact that Tomlinson left to join Mansfield says alot about where hes at. If you put a handful of the youth team in they wouldnt all adapt like a duck to water as Travis has done. 

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