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Raya joins Brentford

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I still believe selling Raya was the right decision. He cost us far too many points last season. Simple as.

I don't know how people can even comment on the coaching when they barely see any of it? 

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Raya has all of the natural attributes to be a top top keeper, what he lacks (decisiveness, distribution, command of the penalty area) can all be coached. I'm not sure our YTS keeper coach had it in him to gain that necessary extra 15% improvement.

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If coaching was the only difference between an indecisive flapping keeper with poor distribution and Gordon Banks, surely by now every keeper at big clubs would be unbeatable? Joe Hart enjoyed the best coaching for years and yet turned into a walking calamity.

I suspect goalkeeping coaches do little more than arrange sessions, kick and throw the ball repeatedly at keepers, and do homework on opposition penalty takers, corners and free kicks.

 

Edited by Exiled in Toronto

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3 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

I still believe selling Raya was the right decision. He cost us far too many points last season. Simple as.

I don't know how people can even comment on the coaching when they barely see any of it? 

Mowbray cost us too many points last season.

Would you feel unqualified to comment on poor quality food in a restaurant because you hadn’t seen the chef cooking it?

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3 hours ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

If coaching was the only difference between an indecisive flapping keeper with poor distribution and Gordon Banks, surely by now every keeper at big clubs would be unbeatable? Joe Hart enjoyed the best coaching for years and yet turned into a walking calamity.

I suspect goalkeeping coaches do little more than arrange sessions, kick and throw the ball repeatedly at keepers, and do homework on opposition penalty takers, corners and free kicks.

 

Good point about Hart etc i think certain flaws are ingrained but others can be ironed out through time, experience and of course good coaching. In Harts case i think a lot of it was mental and a touch of the too much too young making him think he was invincible and it was never his fault them when he realised it was he crumbled a bit.  Some get over it some don't, he's a bit like the David Price of football.

On the coaching etc though i really don't see how working under an experienced coach and with other good keepers can't help a young guy IF he'll listen and buy into it.  THe training drills themselves can vary massively from coach to coach you only need to have watched the warm up routines under different ones over recent years.

Iv'e mentioned it many times on here but those under Johm Keeley involving Steele and younger Raya always seemed very thorough and very good. Contrast to when Lambert took over and brought in his guy a fat lad who could barley boot it to the goal from the edge of the box and it changed massively and didn't look very good at all, if one or the other is replicated through the week..well..

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I imagine that Brentford's goalkeeping coach inspired him more than Ben Benson. Doesn't surprise me in the slightest! 

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Hope he gets a good reception tomorrow. 

Mowbray obviously didn't rate him. Hung him out to dry in the press and couldn't wait to flog him once he saw those £££ signs flashing. Thought he could be cute and swap him for Walton and no one would spot the difference. He was wrong.

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2 hours ago, Amo said:

Hope he gets a good reception tomorrow. 

Mowbray obviously didn't rate him. Hung him out to dry in the press and couldn't wait to flog him once he saw those £££ signs flashing. Thought he could be cute and swap him for Walton and no one would spot the difference. He was wrong.

What gets me is with many situations TM seems to somehow make it worse than it was, even when the standard wasn't that high to begin with. 

Nayambe and Raya are two examples. Both imo have the potential to be very good players but are also raw and have errors in them meaning there's a degree of risk in playing/developing them. Yet the replacements Bennett and Walton are considerbly worse and don't have the potential to develop like these two could. 

Likewise you could say Gallagher is pretty poor, but it is made even worse by playing him on the wing. Mulgrew's time at CB was up, but it was made worse as there was literally no replacement. Bell instead of Williams is another example at lb - and the standard there was very low to begin with.  

The keeper issue has been one of the key ones though as without Walton's regular blunders I reckon our average goal leakage would be lower. The number of clangers he has had is alarming. The only mitigating circumstance is that the defence in front is shambolic which is going to hinder any keeper regardless of their ability. 

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Just now, Blue blood said:

What gets me is with many situations TM seems to somehow make it worse than it was, even when the standard wasn't that high to begin with. 

Nayambe and Raya are two examples. Both imo have the potential to be very good players but are also raw and have errors in them meaning there's a degree of risk in playing/developing them. Yet the replacements Bennett and Walton are considerbly worse and don't have the potential to develop like these two could. 

Likewise you could say Gallagher is pretty poor, but it is made even worse by playing him on the wing. Mulgrew's time at CB was up, but it was made worse as there was literally no replacement. Bell instead of Williams is another example at lb - and the standard there was very low to begin with.  

The keeper issue has been one of the key ones though as without Walton's regular blunders I reckon our average goal leakage would be lower. The number of clangers he has had is alarming. The only mitigating circumstance is that the defence in front is shambolic which is going to hinder any keeper regardless of their ability. 

Then you wonder why certain managers wherever they go continually seem to go backwards after a decent season or so. 

That is a good description of it, of course there are no guarantees but to improve you have to upgrade bit by bit. That really isn't happening but it's made all the more annoying when one or two better than we had have been signed as well but don't get used to their proper strengths.

Holtby, Johnson and even Gallagher and Chapman as to my mind both are an upgrade the likes of Samuel and Gladwin.  Yet you can guarantee once they are fit they'll be taking up bench space again and in some cases replacing those that have been signed. Said it a dozen times but this manager seems to put players happiness before points he's obsessed with rotation and perceived versatility.  

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Just now, tomphil said:

Then you wonder why certain managers wherever they go continually seem to go backwards after a decent season or so. 

That is a good description of it, of course there are no guarantees but to improve you have to upgrade bit by bit. That really isn't happening but it's made all the more annoying when one or two better than we had have been signed as well but don't get used to their proper strengths.

Holtby, Johnson and even Gallagher and Chapman as to my mind both are an upgrade the likes of Samuel and Gladwin.  Yet you can guarantee once they are fit they'll be taking up bench space again and in some cases replacing those that have been signed. Said it a dozen times but this manager seems to put players happiness before points he's obsessed with rotation and perceived versatility.  

Hugely agree especially on your last point. I think that there isn't that desire to hugely improve mainly so not to upset the current crop. We don't buy better (eg the Bauer situation) because we don't want to upset the regular players by kicking them out of the team. 

Since we got.promoted how many players have come in and been automatic starters? Very few. It shows how little we are progressing and to me is in part not to hurt the players feelings. 

I was thinking on the promotion side under Souness and it's similarities with our league 1 promotion team (albeit at a lower levels) Both had 3 crown jewels capable of winning games supported by a bunch of decent to good playe s for that division. Thing is Souness kept adding stars - top quality best performer stars - Friedel in goal, Cole up front, Tugay in the midfield. Also those solid squad players were moved on for better both in the championship and promotion cull (Bent and Curtis are two that stand out on this ) TM hasn't really added any match changes much less star players since promotion. Perhaps Travis is the nearest and only thing. And it shows just how when you aren't improving you are going back area. 

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2 hours ago, Blue blood said:

Hugely agree especially on your last point. I think that there isn't that desire to hugely improve mainly so not to upset the current crop. We don't buy better (eg the Bauer situation) because we don't want to upset the regular players by kicking them out of the team. 

Since we got.promoted how many players have come in and been automatic starters? Very few. It shows how little we are progressing and to me is in part not to hurt the players feelings. 

I was thinking on the promotion side under Souness and it's similarities with our league 1 promotion team (albeit at a lower levels) Both had 3 crown jewels capable of winning games supported by a bunch of decent to good playe s for that division. Thing is Souness kept adding stars - top quality best performer stars - Friedel in goal, Cole up front, Tugay in the midfield. Also those solid squad players were moved on for better both in the championship and promotion cull (Bent and Curtis are two that stand out on this ) TM hasn't really added any match changes much less star players since promotion. Perhaps Travis is the nearest and only thing. And it shows just how when you aren't improving you are going back area. 

Whichever way you look at it or what they come out with it just doesn't resemble an attempt to build a side capable of bothering the top 6 it just doesn't.  Because wherever it can be it's just patched up with loans and now a few older freebies on big wages yet the core and the spine of the team just isn't near good enough, never gets the investment it should and is not likely to grow better.

It's just a squad carrying some big investments designed you'd presume to be worth more and a few youngsters playing mostly bit parts. It isn't a jigsaw being put together it's just a water treading effort. 

Why ?  Probably because when all is said and done nobody has any real urgency or desire for it they're all happy to bumble along.  A lot of fans are as well but when they see it getting worse they are the ones who'll be the first to get anxious....then get criticised for having the nerve to grumble.

At a guy who put his name to the Brereton signing and is now saying the exact same stuff about the Gallagher signing. A guy who promised he was going to rebuild a defence he's acknowledged wasn't good enough then didn't.  A he himself he said he'd be signing better players to come in and play and who pulled top 6 talk out of the thin air when most fans were just aiming for top ten.

Then he wonders why !  It's going to be interesting to hear him talk his way around the next window. No doubt there'll suddenly be a load of players to be linked away then all the talk will be about concentrating on keeping what we have. Then he'll be credited with that, you can predict things around here with alarming accuracy these days. 

Edited by tomphil

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Just now, tomphil said:

Whichever way you look at it or what they come out with it just doesn't resemble an attempt to build a side capable of bothering the top 6 it just doesn't.  Because wherever it can be it's just patched up with loans and now a few older freebies on big wages yet the core and the spine of the team just isn't near good enough, never gets the investment it should and is not likely to grow better.

It's just a squad carrying some big investments designed you'd presume to be worth more and a few youngsters playing mostly bit parts. It isn't a jigsaw being put together it's just a water treading effort. 

Why ?  Probably because when all is said and done nobody has any real urgency or desire for it they're all happy to bumble along.  A lot of fans are as well but when they see it getting worse they are the ones who'll be the first to get anxious....then get criticised for having the nerve to grumble.

At a guy who put his name to the Brereton signing and is now saying the exact same stuff about the Gallagher signing. A guy who promised he was going to rebuild a defence he's acknowledged wasn't good enough then didn't.  A he himself he said he'd be signing better players to come in and play and who pulled top 6 talk out of the thin air when most fans were just aiming for top ten.

Then he wonders why !  It's going to be interesting to hear him talk his way around the next window. No doubt there'll suddenly be a load of players to be linked away then all the talk will be about concentrating on keeping what we have. Then he'll be credited with that, you can predict things around here with alarming accuracy these days. 

Spot on in your predictions. Under a vaguely competent manager there's very few players I'd be gutted to see go so keeping hold of them isn't that big an achievement. 

Except it is because as we found with Mulgrew something is better than nothing. Keeping them is only an achievement because the chances are he will buy worse. 

Under a competent manager meh, I wouldn't miss most of them. Travis, the attacking midfield trio (with Rothwell not Armstrong) and then perhaps Nayambe, Lenihen and the (now gone) Raya - and these three because of what they could potentially be, not because of what they are now. Oh and Graham. 

After that meh, a competent manager could get better; they're squad players masquerading as first teamers. Wouldn't lose sleep if any of them went. 

As ever the bar continued to be lowered at Ewood. 

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Rays going off BRFCS script in the LT: great manager, didn’t feel he was dropped at end of last season - meaningless games anyway (file under Joe Rothwell tearing it up), been here forever so worried about getting too comfortable, never reads the press so no no idea what was being said about him.

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If the games were meaningless does that mean we disregard the results too? That makes Mowbray's record worse so I don't think anybody backing him should be saying that. 

Edited by DE.

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On 09/09/2019 at 01:37, chaddyrovers said:

I still believe selling Raya was the right decision. He cost us far too many points last season. Simple as.

I don't know how people can even comment on the coaching when they barely see any of it? 

Do you  believe that selling Raya and getting a keeper ON LOAN who is no better was the right decision? 

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1 hour ago, 47er said:

Do you  believe that selling Raya and getting a keeper ON LOAN who is no better was the right decision? 

We should have changed the goalkeeping coach and number two. Instead we just slotted in a different bloke with no competition and no experienced hand to guide him. But Mowbray doesn’t see that as a problem.

69 goals conceded last season and this season’s current rate sees us on track to concede 70...!

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1 hour ago, 47er said:

Do you  believe that selling Raya and getting a keeper ON LOAN who is worse was the right decision? 

Amended. Great point either way though. 

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1 hour ago, DE. said:

If the games were meaningless does that mean we disregard the results too? That makes Mowbray's record worse so I don't think anybody backing him should be saying that. 

Just pointing out that the man himself came out with a narrative completely opposite to the one on here: that dropping him and blaming him in the paper for some goals forced him out.

But I suppose “bloke who has been in same workplace for 8 years fancied a new challenge” couldn’t possibly be true.

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1 hour ago, 47er said:

Do you  believe that selling Raya and getting a keeper ON LOAN who is no better was the right decision? 

I still believe selling Raya was the right decision IMO. 

nowhere in my post you quote did I say getting a keeper on loan was right either. 

We tried for Karl Darlow from Newcastle and Arsenal keeper Martinez(as someone posted on here). 

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I still believe selling Raya was the right decision IMO. 

nowhere in my post you quote did I say getting a keeper on loan was right either. 

We tried for Karl Darlow from Newcastle and Arsenal keeper Martinez(as someone posted on here). 

Imo Raya definitely should not have been sold.

Regardless of that however I think it's beyond any doubt whatsoever that he shouldn't have been allowed to go without a replacement at least as good having been secured.

We seemingly  just sold him without any real idea of who we wanted to bring in, just assuming we'd be able to get someone but then ended up being surprised by how much decent keepers cost.

And ended up with a big useless pudding who makes John Butcher and Alan Fettis look decent and who isn't even our player. (Thankfully as it turns out)

Massive mistake which could be instrumental in sending us down.

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Just now, Exiled in Toronto said:

Just pointing out that the man himself came out with a narrative completely opposite to the one on here: that dropping him and blaming him in the paper for some goals forced him out.

But I suppose “bloke who has been in same workplace for 8 years fancied a new challenge” couldn’t possibly be true.

Players rarely if ever come out and bash former managers or employers in interviews. You'd be stupid to as you may be working with those people again in future. 

At the end of the day he was dropped, he was bashed in the paper by the manager, and unfortunately for us he was sold for peanuts in today's market. I'm sure he's happy to let bygones be bygones as he's obviously moved on to a place where he's playing better, likely being coached better and is appreciated far more by the staff and fans. We're the ones who got screwed by letting him go and bringing in an inferior replacement who doesn't even belong to us.  

 

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I still believe selling Raya was the right decision IMO. 

nowhere in my post you quote did I say getting a keeper on loan was right either. 

We tried for Karl Darlow from Newcastle and Arsenal keeper Martinez(as someone posted on here). 

So don't sell him until you've got a replacement who is better?

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35 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Imo Raya definitely should not have been sold.

He should most definitely have gone, his numerous outlandish cock ups last season were just too much and there's also his woeful kicking....decent reflexes though. 

The big mistake was replacing him with what seems to be another sub standard one.  Plus, the not selling of other poor squad members seems to add fuel to the argument that mowbray is blaming Raya......

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