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Rovers v Charlton

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That was a hard watch yesterday and I totally get peoples' anger and frustration at TM's line up, tactics, and substitutions. I've been a staunch defender of his decisions and still believe his intentions are absolutely genuine and he has the ability to build a top 6 team here, but yesterday he got too much wrong and gave grist to the mill of those who want him gone. He needs a good week this week in terms of signing a decent, solid, experienced CB at the very, very least.

I would have started Rothwell not Downing (with Rothwell left & Arma right), Nyambe not Bennett, and BB (or DG) not Gally. 

I think criticising Walton is harsh. Even great keepers need their defence to not give cheap balls away, the midfield to track back, and CBs to win headers 12 yards out at set pieces.

I don't know why Bennett played, should've been Nyambe. He was deffo THE weak link, not a right back. He needs to play CM if at all, though there's no room for him there in our best starting 11. TM needs to see this now before it's too late. I like his passion & enthusiasm but that's not enough.

Mulgrew was far too hesitant again. I get why he started but he must be treated as backup now with a view to being moved on next window or summer. Again, respect what he's done but can't be part of taking us further, he's just not good enough.

Bell frustrates. There's a player there but he lacks confidence & self belief. It could due to those alongside of him. I would persevere as better CB protection could be his making. But I'd also like to see Hart given a go there, or Martin Olssen brought in.

Johnson was excellent & so much better than Evan's & Smallwood. Travis was good alongside of him too, they were our best point today & bodes well for the season.  Not sure why Travis got subbed, was there an injury? If not, that was amongst TM's strangest decisions.

Downing I liked, showed good composure & vision. Why was he on the right though?? Another strange one. And he ought not to have missed the ball with that 1st half chance.

Armstrong I thought did ok, albeit with no end product in the end. He actually looked our most potent threat. Again, subbing him when we did & putting Gallagher in his place was another strange one.

Gallagher also did ok imo, hussled & harried but didn't really have a clear cut chance to shoot. Faded badly after being moved right, certainly not his strongest position. Another one for TM to try to justify.

Dack was pretty much invisible for me bar the odd sprinkle of magic. Am getting a bit worried about him tbh, hope he finds his mojo soon. He needs to learn how to play without DG being there.

Lenihan - did ok especially in the context of the rest of the back 4, (not saying much I know) but his crossfield balls need work or to be cut out completely.

All the subs were strange for me. Timing of them was poor, we were well on top and I saw no reason at that point to make a double sub. If I were to make subs, initially I would've kept Arma on & taken Gally off for either DG or BB.  I would've then done a straight swap for Rothwell with Downing. If needed, I'd then have brought Dack off for whichever of DG or BB was still on the bench.

Buckley was absolutely the wrong choice, and ineffective. Rothwell too was ineffective when he came on. 

Tony has a BIG week ahead of him. 

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Looking at the bigger picture, it's one defeat (albeit a painful one). Nothing was ever lost or won on day one, but we need a reaction.

Yesterday's results were a set of unpredictable ones, which I think shows this will be a season like few others. I think we'll often get better results against the better teams that attack us and leave gaps at the back and struggle to break down defensive set ups that hit us on the counter. However, that's only if we improve defensively.

I don't think we should go to Fulham cowed by yesterday. They lost too & there will be tension down there that we can take advantage of just as Charlton did to us yesterday. Same with the other tough fixtures coming up, but we need to play with more fluency & be tighter at the back. Nyambe in Bennett out, Tosin in Mulgrew out, DG or BB in Gally out, Rothwell in Downing out.

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27 minutes ago, Rogerb said:

Think you are spot on with this. Gallagher and Charltons no 6 Pearce were having a running battle with Pearce becoming more and more irritated nailed on for a booking at least Gallagher gets moved away. Problem over for Pearce. Think DE made a very valid point about the link up between Dack and Graham that with Gallagher was none existent which is not surprising considering he has just arrived. Gallagher has a first touch worse than Mike Newell totally pointless playing him wide right.

For all the valid criticism of Bell he did play a peach of a daisy cutter cross across the six yard box in the second half but no one gambled on getting on the end of it.

Baffling substitution by Mowbray particularly removing Travis for Buckley which again has a sniff of predetermined about it.

Booed off at half and full time. Seasoned posters on here growing in numbers believe his time is up 4 days left to sign a brute of a centre half. Suspect I may be changing my vote in the poll on TM come the 8th

 

To be fair Mowbray probably brought Buckley on for Travis because he thought he may bring a creative pass to unlock the Charlton defence from a deeper position.

Didn't work but I can see the thinking behind it.

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1 hour ago, RoverAbroad said:

Fair play to them. It's what we SHOULD be doing instead of being walkovers.

Case in point - Downing had the chance to pull down the Charlton lad in the run-up to the first goal and take a yellow card for the team. He didn't do it, they scored. In the second half, someone (Dack? Travis? Can't remember) was threatening a breakaway. The Charlton player pulled him down, received a yellow card on behalf of his side and the team regrouped. 

We need a bit more shithousery in blue-and-white shirts, that's for sure. 

I agree totally, teams must love playing against us. If you're looking for the likes of Downing to get stuck in and put himself about you'll be looking a long while. Just another one in our collection of nice lads I'm afraid.

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Just now, joey_big_nose said:

To be fair Mowbray probably brought Buckley on for Travis because he thought he may bring a creative pass to unlock the Charlton defence from a deeper position.

Didn't work but I can see the thinking behind it.

Thought Buckley looked, and played, like a frightened rabbit when he came on.

These young players need to show some b@lls and seize the moment when an opportunity opens up for them 

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It's going to be one of those unpredictable seasons. Cardiff losing at Wigan (despite Warnock), Fulham at Barnsley, Preston at Millwall (despite Bauer), Big Club winning at Brentford (despite Raya). 

We need to be consistently better in all depts of course (Johnson & Travis excused) and lessons must be learnt from yesterday. I'm confident that they will be, though some ought to have been learnt already, but there will be turnups every single week, I'm hopeful that this is just that.

 

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Problem when Charlton pressed for their winner, our entire backline didn't believe in either themselves or in each other.

Their communication and body language was all headless chickens.

This is not just the fans having a problem, the players do too.

On 02/08/2019 at 12:37, Mattyblue said:

 

 

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Mowbray loves tinkering with the team so at least there will be changes next week, christ knows what they will be though because there is no way Bennett & Mulgrew don't start.

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Just now, Atko's Engine said:

It's going to be one of those unpredictable seasons. Cardiff losing at Wigan (despite Warnock), Fulham at Barnsley, Preston at Millwall (despite Bauer), Big Club winning at Brentford (despite Raya). 

We need to be consistently better in all depts of course (Johnson & Travis excused) and lessons must be learnt from yesterday. I'm confident that they will be, though some ought to have been learnt already, but there will be turnups every single week, I'm hopeful that this is just that.

 

First day matches are a bit late like cup ties, (i.e. no form guide), so you can't read too much into the results.

The problem in our case is that the result stemmed from long standing deficiencies, and we have much tougher tests ahead.

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1 minute ago, Mercer said:

Thought Buckley looked, and played, like a frightened rabbit when he came on.

These young players need to show some b@lls and seize the moment when an opportunity opens up for them 

I think it was the wrong time to bring him in. The logical sub was Brereton. 

I reckon Mowbray is pissing some players off. I always thought his man management was his strength , but let's see now who would be pissed off

Nyambe, Lenihan(because he has to keep playing with Mulgrew), Bennett(possibly, due to being played out of position although maybe he knows he is lucky to be playing), Rothwell(where to begin. He must be disgusted), Brereton (why did we sign him if he couldn't even get a game yesterday, a year later). 

I have a bad feeling things could get very unsettled in the camp if Mowbray doesn't do what he said he would do. Namely get fucking defenders in and secondly play people in position and on merit. 

I'm not Mowbray out yet, but a huge month coming up. Hard to see where the points will come from with that defence. Still, we have it in us to pull performances out of the bag when it's least expected. Just like we have the ability to be shite when least expected. 

Not easy following this club!

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Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I think it was the wrong time to bring him in. The logical sub was Brereton. 

I reckon Mowbray is pissing some players off. I always thought his man management was his strength , but let's see now who would be pissed off

Nyambe, Lenihan(because he has to keep playing with Mulgrew), Bennett(possibly, due to being played out of position although maybe he knows he is lucky to be playing), Rothwell(where to begin. He must be disgusted), Brereton (why did we sign him if he couldn't even get a game yesterday, a year later). 

I have a bad feeling things could get very unsettled in the camp if Mowbray doesn't do what he said he would do. Namely get fucking defenders in and secondly play people in position and on merit. 

I'm not Mowbray out yet, but a huge month coming up. Hard to see where the points will come from with that defence. Still, we have it in us to pull performances out of the bag when it's least expected. Just like we have the ability to be shite when least expected. 

Not easy following this club!

After 55+ years, I am well aware!

I cringed when Mowbray was appointed and I've despaired ever since. 

I think the seemingly affable, bumbling Mowbray is not quite what he seems.  I honestly struggle to see any managerial strengths.  IMO - Fitness, no.  Organisation, no.  Tactically savvy, no.  Player trading, no.  Man management, no.  Getting the best out of what we have, no.  Bullsh1tting, YES.

I did not see Mowbray try and influence the game from the touchline at all yesterday.  All I saw was our manager with his arms folded across his chest.  Perhaps I'd fallen asleep. 

Edited by Mercer

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39 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

 ......Nyambe in Bennett out, Tosin in Mulgrew out, DG or BB in Gally out, Rothwell in Downing out.

Everything we saw from Downing, especially when our tactical genius remembered he should be playing on the left, says he deserves to keep his place. If it's between Downing and Armstrong for one wide place, I'm afraid it would be Downing for me, at least for 3 or 4 games.

90% of the 15 min of constant, quality pressure, before the senseless double sub, came through Downing. His 1st time crosses were quality. 

He plays, certainly in next home game.

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Thing is, it might game 1 of this season, but that was probably game 50 with that back four (since Bell signed).

Yes Johnson and Travis look good and I was actually pleased with Downing, however this crap Mowbray saying that it's not a case of same back four = same result... That's exactly what it is you fucktard.

Sticking with Bennett, Mulgrew and Bell in that back four is worse than when Souness lost the plot and played 5 left backs vs WBA.

He needed to go 5 months ago. 1st game my arse. Nothing will change my mind now.

The £5m he spent on Gallagher let alone the £7m on Brereton are each more than every manager before him since Kean has had to spend COMBINED. Yet we see that turgid back four for the 4th transfer window running.

Sign a CB, drop Bennett, or fuck off.

 

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44 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

To be fair Mowbray probably brought Buckley on for Travis because he thought he may bring a creative pass to unlock the Charlton defence from a deeper position.

Didn't work but I can see the thinking behind it.

Dack was supposed to be doing that, but wasn't.  Buckley for Dack, Brereton for Armstrong and Graham for Gallagher would have been my subs. 

I would actually add Armstrong to the category of players that Mowbray blindly loves. I think he is one dimensional and lazy. He's either on it, or he's not. When he is on it, he is good, but there is no in between. He is on it about 1 game in every 10.

Edited by Bigdoggsteel

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The first goal summed up the 2 full backs and exactly what is wrong with the pair of them.

Bennett if I recall was at least partially responsible for an attack breaking down deep in the Charlton half, fair enough. Charlton countered but he charged right across the pitch to the point where when Williams crossed the ball in, he was not there in time but he was essentially a second left back. Their left wing back meanwhile drifted in unmarked from the opposite side and had a simple finish to put them 1 up. It summed Bennett up to a tee, horrendous positionally, and often feels the need to be rash and desperate to retrieve the ball rather than allow the defenders already on that side to try and deal with preventing the cross and if not, he should have been back into position anyway to deal with the danger comfortably.

Bell also summed himself up in the same move, he was responsible for trying to prevent the cross and typically he turned his back on it.

Its a bit of a myth too that hes good going forward, hes so lackadaisical and him dawdling on the ball is such a regular occurance.

I genuinely dont think theres a worse pair of full backs in the league than those 2. 

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Downing is getting off lightly for his involvement or rather lack of effort in the first Charlton goal. It's in the extended highlights on iFollow as proof. Purrington is left alone to amble in to score. Lenihan comes out of it badly too. As for Bennett well enough said.

Edit: Was posting whilst you did @roversfan99 , together we have that abomination of a goal covered

Edited by AllRoverAsia

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As a separate note, the last time we scored an injury time goal that was an equaliser or a winner was 14th March 2017. Also, we haven't scored an injury time winner since Mowbray was appointed. Contrast that to how many we have conceded in that time.

If we're losing or drawing when the board goes up you might aswell go home, there wasnt one ounce of pressure in that extra 6 minutes yesterday.

This side has no balls or character, and I cant see that changing this season.

Edited by MarkBRFC

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So, took a day to think things over. 

Positives - 

Johnson (major positive for me and a huge encouragement)

Things that were ok verging on positives - 

Formation 

Travis 

Gallagher 

Negatives -

Defending (collectively)

Bennett 

Dack

Overall, it was a game that we should have won and, in my many ways, we played well enough to win it. That being said, we created very few chances and rarely looked like troubling them. What's worse, Charlton only managed to make it into our half on a handful of occasions and managed to come away with 2 goals. 

The sad thing? There's nothing new here. 

I'm not a big Mowbray hater - not that I love him either - and I will reserve some judgement until 4/5 games into this season, but something has to change. Bennett cannot play. We need a CB to replace Mulgrew. 

Dack is doing his best possible impression of Rhodes. He had one moment of quality yesterday, but, apart from that, he was a complete passenger. We can't afford to have a midfielder who goes is anonymous for large stretches of the match. He should have been the first one-off for me, it was crying for Rothwell to come on in his place and add a bit of pace. 

The one major positive is that I hope this forces a bit of action on the transfer front and in the selection process - but I am not that hopeful. 

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Just watched the highlights. Lenihan should really get his head on the first as well.

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Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Dack was supposed to be doing that, but wasn't.  Buckley for Dack, Brereton for Armstrong and Graham for Gallagher would have been my subs. 

I would actually add Armstrong to the category of players that Mowbray blindly loves. I think he is one dimensional and lazy. He's either on it, or he's not. When he is on it, he is good, but there is no in between. He is on it about 1 game in every 10.

Nail on the head there. Never really been a fan on Armstong as per your explanation above. Arma will always be first choice winger for boring Tony despite his inconsistency. Rothwell is much the better player and should play ahead of him IMO. Only thing going for Arma is that he's got a few goals. Other than that he's bang average if not below.

Edited by BankEnd Rover

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Just now, Mercer said:

After 55+ years, I am well aware!

I cringed when Mowbray was appointed and I've despaired ever since. 

I think the seemingly affable, bumbling Mowbray is not quite what he seems.  I honestly struggle to see any managerial strengths.  IMO - Fitness, no.  Organisation, no.  Tactically savvy, no.  Player trading, no.  Man management, no.  Getting the best out of what we have, no.  Bullsh1tting, YES.

I did not see Mowbray try and influence the game from the touchline at all yesterday.  All I saw was our manager with his arms folded across his chest.  Perhaps I'd fallen asleep. 

There was an occasion yesterday when Bell made another mistake TM had his head in his hands. But he still didn’t do anything 

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Think next week against Fulham could be a good time to try out the new rule for Championship clubs that the FL implemented this year.  Just say we can't play it , only a 1-0 defeat and no extra points deduction. just a -1 goal difference for this game might be handy come the end of season

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Just now, garnersfags said:

Everything we saw from Downing, especially when our tactical genius remembered he should be playing on the left, says he deserves to keep his place. If it's between Downing and Armstrong for one wide place, I'm afraid it would be Downing for me, at least for 3 or 4 games.

90% of the 15 min of constant, quality pressure, before the senseless double sub, came through Downing. His 1st time crosses were quality. 

He plays, certainly in next home game.

I agree to an extent, and think Downing will be valuable across the season. But if Rothwell & Downing are both to play then one of them has to go on the right, but that's where I think Arma would be more effective and less of a square peg in a round hole than either Downing or Rothwell.  I'd interchange Downing & Rothwell during this season, more often than not using Downing off the bench to either add composure  & noise when leading late in games or for a probing pass or pinpoint cross to unlock defences where Rothwell might have been nullified. 

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Just now, Eddie said:

Dack is doing his best possible impression of Rhodes. He had one moment of quality yesterday, but, apart from that, he was a complete passenger. We can't afford to have a midfielder who goes is anonymous for large stretches of the match. He should have been the first one-off for me, it was crying for Rothwell to come on in his place and add a bit of pace. 

Can you imagine Dack and Danny sat together on the bench and not slagging mowbray off.......mowbray has to be careful here.  He could lose the dressing room very quickly. 

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18 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Can you imagine Dack and Danny sat together on the bench and not slagging mowbray off.......mowbray has to be careful here.  He could lose the dressing room very quickly. 

I think this as well. 

Lenihan said in an interview earlier in the summer that we need some signings to compete. Mowbray has said Dack will leave if we don't match his ambitions. 

They obviously both see that the defence is shite and that the manager is either refusing to see it, is in denial or is afraid to upset certain players. I am sure that they know Rothwell should be paying too. The reactions when he scored showed the players knew he has something special. Some of them, Bennett included even commented on how good he is afterwards on social media. I bet there was some confusion in the dressing room with the team selection. You could see it on the field. The good players want the manager to play other good players. It's that simple. 

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