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Tony Mowbray Discussion

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Just now, Mattyblue said:

Behave Dreams! In your rush to clamber up to that moral high ground you are mixing up your vocab.

You can be cowardly without being a traitor. Think you are conflating a fairly standard descriptor of a risk averse  manager in football parlance with its archaic usage to describe World War 1 conscientious objectors/deserters.

 

 

No I am not. TM has been called a coward on here dozens of times now and each time it is wrong to do so. How is his approach to the sport cowardly? He's achieved far more than any of us can ever dream of having.

It's language used to stoke up emotions and further their point when it has no merit. It is no different to when the board had a mini-bitch about Jim Wilkinson doing the same re: criticism of Amari'i Bell. When the shoe fits though....

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If people think he has a ‘cowardly’ approach to setting up his team that’s up to them. I just think he’s a bang average manager personally.

But come on, you don’t think your outrage is slightly OTT? 

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Just now, Mattyblue said:

If people think he has a ‘cowardly’ approach to setting up his team that’s up to them. I just think he’s a bang average manager personally.

But come on, you don’t think your outrage is slightly OTT? 

No. Go and tell any man in the street that the way in which he applies himself in his job is cowardly and see the reaction you will get.

Go and tell TM that he has a cowardly approach to football and see the reaction you get. It is all very easy to throw words around like that on a forum but it is especially disheartening to have Tony Mowbray put in the same bracket as a genuine coward Steve Kean. One is a manager who has found his level, the other is an actual coward. However you try and dress it up this board has become a hotbed for criticism of Mowbray, rightly or wrongly, and certain posters have thrown the "coward" accusation around with little or no thought as to the meaning behind it.

We are constantly told on here to respect the rights of posters to express their opinions. That's ok. Now I have to read the posts in which a man like Mowbray is labelled a coward and my opinion of why that is shockingly inaccurate is considered OTT? Talk about a sign of bias. 

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Who’s biased? Me? I’m still on the fence personally, unlike others that wanted him sacked after two games...

Talking about handing out bans, being ‘inflammatory’, ‘not the kind of language to be associated with brfcs’ etc. is OTT to me as it is pretty obvious DE used it to describe a safety first, risk averse management style. Not that Tony Mowbray, who seems a nice and all round professional fella is a coward.

Think you are looking for something that isn’t there...

Edited by Mattyblue

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It’s only a word, not sure why it’s deemed as being so bad, tbh. 
I don’t think anyone is saying Tony Mowbray as a person is a coward. How would they know?

Saying his football is cowardly? Not the worst thing anyone could say. 

Also, people don’t have the option to tell Mowbray what they think as they don’t 

1) Have his number

2) Know him personally. 
 

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Just now, Mattyblue said:

Who’s biased? Me? I’m still on the fence personally, unlike others that wanted him sacked after two games...

Talking about handing out bans, being ‘inflammatory’, ‘not the kind of language to be associated with brfcs’ etc. is OTT to me as it is pretty obvious DE used it to describe a safety first, risk averse management style. Not that Tony Mowbray, who seems a nice and all round professional fella is a coward.

Think you are looking for something that isn’t there...

As said Mattyblue the criticism wasn't solely for DE but more a general response to the current trend of calling managers / players on here cowards, although in the main the trend for calling TM a coward.

By bias I am on about the fact you are calling my reaction OTT to this but the fact that people can go about throwing the cowardly insult around on several topics daily is not in the slightest bit over the top. As said, the right to an opinion is held in higher regard than the moral obligation to form a sensible, balanced opinion.

Risk averse, overly cautious manager is a far cry away from saying he has a "cowardly approach to football". As said, the use of the word coward should be reserved for managers like Kean not for Mowbray or you simply lose sight of the meaning behind it, as has seemingly happened here. If posters don't think that it is a word which requires such an "OTT response" from the likes of me then I'd welcome them to say it to his face in a Q&A session with him should he survive til the next one. Until then whenever it is brought up I'll continue to put forward my opinion that is wrong to do so, as is my right.

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Would you class his football as brave?

Think you are getting mixed up a little. Do not think anyone is calling the man a 'coward', just how he sets up his teams.

He summed himself up against Huddersfield. The moment he brought Evans on, he had basically settled for a draw at home against a team below us.

Edited by JacknOry

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Firstly, well done to everyone for discussing something they disagree on without this resulting in chaos! 
 

For what it’s worth, I think TM is far too conservative and often seems to play players or use formations which I think worry too much about the opposition rather than concentrating on our own positives. An example of this would be the “two and a half strikers” which he insists on playing no matter who we play, whether it be league or cup. 

Do I think TM is a coward? Absolutely not, I think he’s a very genuine man, a successful manager and clearly a family man after reading his interviews. I’ve never met him, but I suspect he’s extremely intelligent and full of knowledge. 
 

Do I think his approach to football has, at times, been cowardly? Yes, probably. An example of being Charlton away last in L1, when a win would have resulted in us winning the league - TM put out a stinking team and we rolled over. Equally, playing some of the lesser quality teams in this league and worrying in the press about them drives me absolutely insane. 

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Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

As said, the use of the word coward should be reserved for managers like Kean not for Mowbray or you simply lose sight of the meaning behind it, as has seemingly happened here. If posters don't think that it is a word which requires such an "OTT response" from the likes of me then I'd welcome them to say it to his face in a Q&A session with him should he survive til the next one. Until then whenever it is brought up I'll continue to put forward my opinion that is wrong to do so, as is my right.

Kean's approach to football wasn't cowardly though, imo anyway, it was just haphazard and clueless. I don't think it makes sense to compare the two in terms of their approach to games as Kean didn't seem to be pragmatic/overcautious/overthinking/fearful of the opposition at all. If he had been then he might actually have been more successful. Probably not though. 

You are absolutely within your rights to express your view on the usage of the words "coward/cowardly", but at the same time I think it would be ridiculous to try to censor or discourage their usage in regards to describing players or managers. I don't think it's generally considered that offensive, as there are far, far worse things said regularly outside of the BRFCS bubble. If that's the worst we have to put up with then we don't have to worry too much. I certainly don't consider it anywhere close to the level of calling fellow fans racist for criticism of a poor player, but of course you are also within your rights to believe it is similar, as long as there aren't any personal insults towards other posters involved. 

1 minute ago, Mattyblue said:

it is pretty obvious DE used it to describe a safety first, risk averse management style. Not that Tony Mowbray, who seems a nice and all round professional fella is a coward.

Yes, absolutely. Have said many times that I think TM is a decent enough person (despite questionable treatment of certain younger players). I don't consider the word "cowardly" in a footballing context to be in any way offensive, as it's usage is fairly common when describing defensive tactics and styles of management. It is not meant in the same derogatory way as it would be when aimed at a person's overall character. Considering some of the things that I've seen written about TM on here and elsewhere I'm genuinely stunned that my fairly innocuous post has caused such a stir! But passionate debate is still fine by me as long as it doesn't stray into personal attacks. 

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He's made Birmingham into a mega technical team, yet again building up the opposition. Why not keep your gob shut, and concentrate on picking your best team. A team that can win a match, any match!

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Just now, Kie_BRFC said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17983651.mowbrays-plan-rovers-new-boy-lewis-holtby-schedule/

 

29 year old, German international with champions league experience, needs to learn his positional sense before he can start regularly. 

What on Earth is Mowbray on? 

Words fail me on Mowbray. Which is just as well. TAXI.

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Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

Words fail me on Mowbray. Which is just as well. TAXI.

Don’t understand how he can trust a Gallagher (a useless centre forward) or an Armstrong on the wing, but can’t trust holtby there.

holtby shouldn’t even be playing on the wing, but that’s another problem

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Just now, Kie_BRFC said:

Don’t understand how he can trust a Gallagher (a useless centre forward) or an Armstrong on the wing, but can’t trust holtby there.

holtby shouldn’t even be playing on the wing, but that’s another problem

I have actually given up on Mowbray and trying to work him out.

I think he's lost the plot big time and now simply inventing scenarios to justify his fuck-ups in team selection and tactics.

It's not the first time his career has peaked and nosedived.

He needs results in his favour tonight and at Preston to keeps the fans at bay.

His job is safe as houses though under our ownership.

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Ah, isnt that the same thing he said about Harrison Reed who now starts and is earning good reviews for a team chasing promotion? When with us though, he was told to learn how to play CM from Evans and Smallwood. Watch this space that Holtby will become bored stiff here and will move the first opportunity that he gets and does similar to Reed. 

Positional sense? He was bossing that game and as one poster said during the game, is similar to players like Tugay that already knew what they were going to do with the ball before it got to them. TM will drum all of this out of him in much the same way he has been doing with Travis.

Doesnt like drive or creativity does he TM, Rothwell and Chapman other examples of being far too exciting for our Tone.  

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Just now, JacknOry said:

Ah, isnt that the same thing he said about Harrison Reed who now starts and is earning good reviews for a team chasing promotion? When with us though, he was told to learn how to play CM from Evans and Smallwood. Watch this space that Holtby will become bored stiff here and will move the first opportunity that he gets and does similar to Reed. 

Positional sense? He was bossing that game and as one poster said during the game, is similar to players like Tugay that already knew what they were going to do with the ball before it got to them. TM will drum all of this out of him in much the same way he has been doing with Travis.

Doesnt like drive or creativity does he TM, Rothwell and Chapman other examples of being far too exciting for our Tone.  

Yes I agree with this. I’m not sure of Holtbys deal here but he will be off at the earliest opportunity if Mowbray keeps treating him like a kid.  
 

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They know people are moaning about the tombola team selections and formations so all of a sudden he's touching on his reasons for doing it.

They know people are moaning Holtby was withdrawn on Sat after having a cracking game and looking fine so he's now touching on his reasons for doing it.

Foxing opposition scouts and the bedding in of an experienced player who's fitness stats were declared good anyway when he signed might seen very odd to us but back in India....

He's covering himself via the press by the sounds of it.

Edited by tomphil

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I don't believe that Mowbray is daft or losing the plot. I think he know exactly what he's doing which is to lower to expectations of fans to the point where mid table is an achievement. 

 

This gives him more room for error when it comes to bad results. Look at the trend this way. Summer time is positive with talk of battling for promotion, spend big and the sort. Then talk of getting more supporters in the ground on match days. 

 

Once tickets have been sold it becomes a case of well we'll do our best but everyone else is very good we might not compete. It's a case of sucker the fans for money, then extend the amount of time at the club through low expectations. Rinse and repeat.

 

The only reason he's here is because the owners can't get anyone else in. Any manager with ambition questions them from the off but they won't sell because it's easier to save face and lose the equivalent of peanuts to them in tens of millions a year than admit failure.

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2
Just now, tomphil said:

They know people are moaning about the tombola team selections and formations so all of a sudden he's touching on his reasons for doing it.

They know people are moaning Holtby was withdrawn on Sat after having a cracking game and looking fine so he's now touching on his reasons for doing it.

Foxing opposition scouts and the bedding in of an experienced player who's fitness stats were declared good anyway when he signed might seen very odd to us but back in India....

He's covering himself via the press by the sounds of it.

I read Mowbray's piece on that.

Is he actually saying he mixes up tactics/systems/ formations in Championship matches with points at stake so as to try to outwit scouts who are scouting future matches?

It's like something from Alice in Wonderland.

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Dean Smith at Villa is a lifelong Villa fan. He started at Walsall then moved to Brentford before taking over at Villa. He has just celebrated 12 months at Villa, taking them from mid-table Championship to mid-table Premier League. That's the way to do it.

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4 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

I read Mowbray's piece on that.

Is he actually saying he mixes up tactics/systems/ formations in Championship matches with points at stake so as to try to outwit scouts who are scouting future matches?

It's like something from Alice in Wonderland.

Seems that way although he came out with similar in lge 1 when fans were asking why he seemed to set up just to stop the opposition.

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2 hours ago, Kie_BRFC said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17983651.mowbrays-plan-rovers-new-boy-lewis-holtby-schedule/

29 year old, German international with champions league experience, needs to learn his positional sense before he can start regularly. 

What on Earth is Mowbray on? 

The way he talks about integrating players into our style, you would think we were Barcelona. His interviews are often embarrassing these days.

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3 hours ago, Kie_BRFC said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17983651.mowbrays-plan-rovers-new-boy-lewis-holtby-schedule/

 

29 year old, German international with champions league experience, needs to learn his positional sense before he can start regularly. 

What on Earth is Mowbray on? 

This frustrates me greatly. He’s 29 and at the peak of his physical powers. He should be playing all the time or until he has a poor spell or needs resting.

Just to add to the debate about “cowardgate”, Mowbray brought on Evans to see out the last 15 minutes of a game where we should have been looking for all three points. And that was after taking off Holtby for Gallagher (not Graham) and then hooking the bloke who could provide crosses. That’s not conservative it’s throwing the towel in.

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Why sign a midfielder who drives forward with the ball or gets forward to support attacks if you then tell him you don't want him to do it and try and drill it out of him ?

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5 hours ago, J*B said:

Firstly, well done to everyone for discussing something they disagree on without this resulting in chaos! 
 

For what it’s worth, I think TM is far too conservative and often seems to play players or use formations which I think worry too much about the opposition rather than concentrating on our own positives. An example of this would be the “two and a half strikers” which he insists on playing no matter who we play, whether it be league or cup. 

Do I think TM is a coward? Absolutely not, I think he’s a very genuine man, a successful manager and clearly a family man after reading his interviews. I’ve never met him, but I suspect he’s extremely intelligent and full of knowledge. 
 

Do I think his approach to football has, at times, been cowardly? Yes, probably. An example of being Charlton away last in L1, when a win would have resulted in us winning the league - TM put out a stinking team and we rolled over. Equally, playing some of the lesser quality teams in this league and worrying in the press about them drives me absolutely insane. 

Mowbray has only been "successful" on one occasion in this division, and that was more than a decade ago, (and pre-dates Owen Coyle's success in this division).

He massively over thinks things, hence all the tinkering.

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