Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

You clearly don't understand how winning promotion works you don't just go in and do it straight away you have to build, develop and go on a journey over a number of seasons in mid table.

A little like the journey we're on?

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, 47er said:

You don't know that either. Its just your view.

Of course it's just my view, I didn't suggest otherwise

[47er]

29 minutes ago, 47er said:

the part that irks is where you are astonished that others don't agree.

 

[JBiz]

12 hours ago, tomphil said:

A few good results and just like when there's a couple of bad one's some lose the plot it seems.

He isn't a bad manager by any stretch but he hasn't done anything yet to prove he's a great one either.

Guys who've got clubs to the Prem in recent times without unlimited backing are clearly above Mowbray in the ratings stakes, whatever their style. Bananas to suggest otherwise imo, however what he has been is a good fit for this club in this current era.

Whether some of the others would've been who knows but if it's promotion you REALLY want you'd have been safer putting money on the Hughtons and Warnocks of this world.

For two reasons I’d call him a great manager; firstly, by helping us to avoid a seemingly nailed on stint in the third tier, albeit with a decent wage and transfer budget and academy, yet Sunderland and others prove this isn’t simple.

Second reason is the gradual improvement of expectations, back in the championship. This (for me) comes an overall approach to improving team, training, facilities etc This is helping our young players take the step up into the team, utilising Damien Johnson as a first team coach is big part of this planning and development. He’s also recruited reasonably well, and responded tactically to issues with injuries.

In terms of Warnock / Hughton, it’s hard to disagree that they’re more successful managers at this level in terms promotion / achievements.

There’s scope to discuss their individual impact for us though - Warnock instead of Coyle at the time would’ve been a no-brainier, but would he improve the academy to first team cohesion, and put other building blocks in place the club desperately needed? Not sure. Would’ve been a lot better than the reprobate Coyle, that’s for sure.

In terms of Hughton, no doubt in his class and quality as a manager, he’s essentially been a decent premier league manager and has had decent success, albeit not enough to keep clubs mid table. In terms of championship level;

Title with Newcastle in first season on playoffs (NUFC relegated season before)

Play off defeat with Birmingham (BFC relegated season before)

Promotion with Brighton at second attempt - Brighton had previously been in three out of 4 play offs (season before he joined, remember “poo gate” vs Palace?)

2 out of 3 promotions, both with heavily fancied and financed teams - I would expect Forest to be his most difficult test to date.
 

Would he be a good appointment for us? I think so, but I don’t think he would’ve got us promoted to the prem yet, as his CV suggests that’s only really likely with a top budget. Warnock is the one more likely to get unfashionable, un fancied teams nearer - but I think well past his best.

Funnily enough, for me, probably still one of the best choices for manager, for a team like us.... we sacked in 2010 to start “the bad times” off...!

 

[47er]

He's never a great manager. That is way over the top. 

[Eddie]

I've had my moments doubting Mowbray, but have mostly been in the 'back him' camp, but to call him a great manager is ridiculous. That isn't a knock on what he's done here or his career, but great has to be reserved for managers that are genuinely...great...

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

19 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I've had my moments doubting Mowbray, but have mostly been in the 'back him' camp, but to call him a great manager is ridiculous. That isn't a knock on what he's done here or his career, but great has to be reserved for managers that are genuinely...great...

Yes, which Rovers managers would you class as great ? Kenny, without a doubt.

Then it's - Souey, got a promotion and a serious cup ? Mark Hughes, who did really well for us when we were struggling ? Howard Kendall, another promotion and he went on to great things at Everton ? Gordon Lee, a Championship win, Ken Furphy, Jim Smith ? Big Sam, a success nearly everywhere he went ?

Johnny Carey, got us back into the big time and built the team that got to the Cup Final ? Jack Marshall, who created the best Rovers team I've ever seen but that never won anything ? Don MacKay and Bobby Saxton who both kept us in contention with next to nothing.

How many of them would you put before Tony Mowbray in long list of Rovers managers ? For me - most of them.

[philipl]

If Mowbray gets us up to the Premier League this season and keeps us there for at least two seasons he will have earned greatness.

[Ewood Ace]

4 hours ago, JBiz said:

For two reasons I’d call him a great manager; firstly, by helping us to avoid a seemingly nailed on stint in the third tier, albeit with a decent wage and transfer budget and academy, yet Sunderland and others prove this isn’t simple.

Second reason is the gradual improvement of expectations, back in the championship. This (for me) comes an overall approach to improving team, training, facilities etc This is helping our young players take the step up into the team, utilising Damien Johnson as a first team coach is big part of this planning and development. He’s also recruited reasonably well, and responded tactically to issues with injuries.

In terms of Warnock / Hughton, it’s hard to disagree that they’re more successful managers at this level in terms promotion / achievements.

There’s scope to discuss their individual impact for us though - Warnock instead of Coyle at the time would’ve been a no-brainier, but would he improve the academy to first team cohesion, and put other building blocks in place the club desperately needed? Not sure. Would’ve been a lot better than the reprobate Coyle, that’s for sure.

In terms of Hughton, no doubt in his class and quality as a manager, he’s essentially been a decent premier league manager and has had decent success, albeit not enough to keep clubs mid table. In terms of championship level;

Title with Newcastle in first season on playoffs (NUFC relegated season before)

Play off defeat with Birmingham (BFC relegated season before)

Promotion with Brighton at second attempt - Brighton had previously been in three out of 4 play offs (season before he joined, remember “poo gate” vs Palace?)

2 out of 3 promotions, both with heavily fancied and financed teams - I would expect Forest to be his most difficult test to date.
 

Would he be a good appointment for us? I think so, but I don’t think he would’ve got us promoted to the prem yet, as his CV suggests that’s only really likely with a top budget. Warnock is the one more likely to get unfashionable, un fancied teams nearer - but I think well past his best.

Funnily enough, for me, probably still one of the best choices for manager, for a team like us.... we sacked in 2010 to start “the bad times” off...!

 

Come on Tony Mowbray is in no shape or form a great manager nor is Chris Hughton for that matter. Mowbray has essentially done the same job for us as Gary Bowyer did only in a slightly different way as Bowyer succeeded where Mowbray failed and kept us in the Championship. Mowbray is a decent steady mid table Championship manager, how anyone could call him a great manager I don't know the one time he's managed in the top flight once and he finished bottom. The biggest job he's had at Celtic was a disaster, where he was one of their worst managers ever. Just on Hughton Brighton were 21st in the Championship when he took over there and unlike Mowbray he was able to keep the side that he got promoted in the Premier League.

4 hours ago, JBiz said:

Would he be a good appointment for us? I think so, but I don’t think he would’ve got us promoted to the prem yet, as his CV suggests that’s only really likely with a top budget. Warnock is the one more likely to get unfashionable, un fancied teams nearer - but I think well past his best.

Warnock's most recent promotion from this league the 17/18 season whereas Mowbray's sole promotion from it was 10 years previous in 07/08. Yet Mowbray is a great manager and Warnock is well past his best. 🤔

Edited December 8, 2020 by Ewood Ace

[JBiz]

19 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Come on Tony Mowbray is in no shape or form a great manager nor is Chris Hughton for that matter. Mowbray has essentially done the same job for us as Gary Bowyer did only in a slightly different way as Bowyer succeeded where Mowbray failed and kept us in the Championship. Mowbray is a decent steady mid table Championship manager, how anyone could call him a great manager I don't know the one time he's managed in the top flight once and he finished bottom. The biggest job he's had at Celtic was a disaster, where he was one of their worst managers ever. Just on Hughton Brighton were 21st in the Championship when he took over there and unlike Mowbray he was able to keep the side that he got promoted in the Premier League.

Warnock's most recent promotion from this league the 17/18 season whereas Mowbray's sole promotion from it was 10 years previous in 07/08. Yet Mowbray is a great manager and Warnock is well past his best. 🤔

If you look back, there is a two word part that is in bold. For me, TM has been a great manager - I guess my view of the state of the club before he arrived, was far worse than yours.

Doesn’t mean other choices would’ve done worse, I just think he’s done a very good job up to now. A promotion back to the premier league would put him into a lofty status in my opinion, in terms of managers we’ve had in our history.
 

 

[JBiz]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

I've had my moments doubting Mowbray, but have mostly been in the 'back him' camp, but to call him a great manager is ridiculous. That isn't a knock on what he's done here or his career, but great has to be reserved for managers that are genuinely...great...

Subjective semantics I guess, I’d call Kenny a legend for what he did for us, Hughes and Souness club icons - perhaps Mowbray is a step away from greatness in the general eye, but for me - the overall turnaround of club since he arrived has been excellent.

[Ewood Ace]

29 minutes ago, JBiz said:

If you look back, there is a two word part that is in bold. For me, TM has been a great manager - I guess my view of the state of the club before he arrived, was far worse than yours.

Doesn’t mean other choices would’ve done worse, I just think he’s done a very good job up to now. A promotion back to the premier league would put him into a lofty status in my opinion, in terms of managers we’ve had in our history.
 

 

So is Gary Bowyer a great manager for you? Mowbray has basically got us in the same position that Gary Bowyer did only via a different route way as Bowyer succeeded where Mowbray failed and kept us in the Championship. Also Mowbray has spent a lot more money than Bowyer did to do so, in fact Mowbray spent more on just Gallagher than Bowyer during his entire tenure and Gallagher isn't even Mowbray's most expensive buy.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Ewood Ace

[JBiz]

12 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

So is Gary Bowyer a great manager for you? Mowbray has basically got us in the same position that Gary Bowyer did only via a different route way as Bowyer succeeded where Mowbray failed and kept us in the Championship. Also Mowbray has spent a lot more money than Bowyer did to do so, in fact Mowbray spent more on just Gallagher than Bowyer during his entire tenure and Gallagher isn't even Mowbray's most expensive buy.

They’ve managed in different scenarios - for example Bowyer inherited a good albeit lopsided squad and spent what little money he had really well - he was a good manager for us at the time, and I was surprised when he was potted but relieved (at the time) Lambert came in.

Lambert took us backwards, even though I rate him as decent. That’s how bad the club was being run at that time, as the better players started to leave too.

After that utter donut gobshite got involved, the scenario TM inherited was a much different proposition to GB. Was unlucky not to keep us up. The turnaround since has been excellent, and I agree too that he’s needed decent backing from the owners to do that.

[Ewood Ace]

15 minutes ago, JBiz said:

They’ve managed in different scenarios - for example Bowyer inherited a good albeit lopsided squad and spent what little money he had really well - he was a good manager for us at the time, and I was surprised when he was potted but relieved (at the time) Lambert came in.

Lambert took us backwards, even though I rate him as decent. That’s how bad the club was being run at that time, as the better players started to leave too.

After that utter donut gobshite got involved, the scenario TM inherited was a much different proposition to GB. Was unlucky not to keep us up. The turnaround since has been excellent, and I agree too that he’s needed decent backing from the owners to do that.

I'm not sure I'd say that Bowyer inherited a good squad in any shape or form it was a very poor squad that had been put together by Kean and his cronies. I'm not sure I'd say it was any better than the squad that got relegated and it certainly had a much worse attitude.

Also I'm not sure that it was Lambert that took us backwards but more that the owners decided to turn the tap's off.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Ewood Ace

[JBiz]

15 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

I'm not sure I'd say that Bowyer inherited a good squad in any shape or form it was a very poor squad that had been put together by Kean and his cronies. I'm not sure I'd say it was any better than the squad that got relegated and it certainly had a much worse attitude.

Also I'm not sure that it was Lambert that took us backwards but more that the owners decided to turn the tap's off.

Yea I alluded to that in only a little bit of detail (the taps turning off) back end of the GB season when Cairney disappeared for nowt!

In TMs first game in charge, Burton away - the likes of Wes Brown and Stokes on the bench. We had a very bad team at that point.

[Dreams of 1995]

I would say Mowbray definitely inherited a worse squad.

Pretty certain our defence back then had Greer, Brown. Although his back four vs Burton isn't that dissimilar to our back four now. We had Williams Mulgrew Lenihan and Nyambe.

What I would say is Nyambe has come on leaps and bounds, although I'm starting to think we are going to lose this boy for a free. Seriously would be criminal. He's the best right back in this league imo. 

Our midfield was an ageing Conway Lowe Gurthrie and Feeney.

Front two of Joao and Emnes.

It wasn't comparable to the likes of Rhodes, Gestede, a better Conway etc. 

Still, the proof is in the pudding, we are looking good and as Phillipl said in another topic this is the the season we were told he'd have a squad capable of getting top 6 with his "slow build" project. It is looking promising but hope we can keep it up.

[Ewood Ace]

3 minutes ago, JBiz said:

In TMs first game in charge, Burton away - the likes of Wes Brown and Stokes on the bench. We had a very bad team at that point.

And that's why we were relegated but was it any worse than what Bowyer inherited after Appleton went? I remember going to the first game after that at Cardiff we had Kean in goal, Morris at full back, we had Murphy, Bentley and Best all starting and all completely uninterested. Whilst we had the likes of Goodwillie and Stewart on the bench.

[Ewood Ace]

2 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I would say Mowbray definitely inherited a worse squad.

Pretty certain our defence back then had Greer, Brown. Although his back four vs Burton isn't that dissimilar to our back four now. We had Williams Mulgrew Lenihan and Nyambe.

What I would say is Nyambe has come on leaps and bounds, although I'm starting to think we are going to lose this boy for a free. Seriously would be criminal. He's the best right back in this league imo. 

Our midfield was an ageing Conway Lowe Gurthrie and Feeney.

Front two of Joao and Emnes.

It wasn't comparable to the likes of Rhodes, Gestede, a better Conway etc. 

Bowyer only inherited Rhodes of those 3. To be fair the season we went down the attack wasn't our problem we had 4 decent strikers at this level in Graham, Gallagher, Joao and Emnes, the side Bowyer inherited had Rhodes and little else in the way of goals. If the midfield was ageing when Mowbray took over, what Bowyer inherited was creaking with the likes of Murphy, Etuhu, Pedersen and Bentley. 

Then we also had endless dross in the squad such as Ribero, Vukcevic, Orr, Best, Nunes, Kean, Goodwillie, Campbell, Kazim-Richards, Stewart and probably some more Portuguese who have been erased from my mind along with a well over the hill Nuno Gomes. For me the two squads were equally as bad, the one benefit of the squad that Mowbray inherited was that it cost a lot less to get rid off than the squad that Bowyer inherited did and it also had some good young players in it.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Ewood Ace

[roversfan99]

3 hours ago, JBiz said:

They’ve managed in different scenarios - for example Bowyer inherited a good albeit lopsided squad and spent what little money he had really well - he was a good manager for us at the time, and I was surprised when he was potted but relieved (at the time) Lambert came in.

Lambert took us backwards, even though I rate him as decent. That’s how bad the club was being run at that time, as the better players started to leave too.

After that utter donut gobshite got involved, the scenario TM inherited was a much different proposition to GB. Was unlucky not to keep us up. The turnaround since has been excellent, and I agree too that he’s needed decent backing from the owners to do that.

I would rate Mowbray above Bowyer but in regards to what they inherited, you are doing Bowyer a disservice. He inherited a squad full of ageing players with no use and quite a few big egos on big contracts who it took a while for us to shift and pay off, Best, Murphy, Etuhu etc. 

Ultimately Mowbray's task was slightly more difficult (the draw at Burton took us 2 points from 21st with 14 games to go, so rhetoric about his points per game aside, it was not mission impossible and ultimately he failed) but much of the deadwood he inherited was about to go out of contract (Greer, Brown, Lowe, Guthrie) and he didnt have any bad influences in the way that Bowyer did. Mowbray then with not much in the way of useless shite still knocking around causing unrest/draining the finances, then successfully managed to get us back up again and deserved kudos for that. He has in more time still failed as of yet to get past that glass ceiling that Bowyer seldom managed to display any sign of being genuine top 6 contenders.

Mowbray had a much cleaner slate to work from in regards to the playing squad, as well as the bonus of a clutch of younger talented players.

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I would rate Mowbray above Bowyer but in regards to what they inherited, you are doing Bowyer a disservice. He inherited a squad full of ageing players with no use and quite a few big egos on big contracts who it took a while for us to shift and pay off, Best, Murphy, Etuhu etc. 

Ultimately Mowbray's task was slightly more difficult (the draw at Burton took us 2 points from 21st with 14 games to go, so rhetoric about his points per game aside, it was not mission impossible and ultimately he failed) but much of the deadwood he inherited was about to go out of contract (Greer, Brown, Lowe, Guthrie) and he didnt have any bad influences in the way that Bowyer did. Mowbray then with not much in the way of useless shite still knocking around causing unrest/draining the finances, then successfully managed to get us back up again and deserved kudos for that. He has in more time still failed as of yet to get past that glass ceiling that Bowyer seldom managed to display any sign of being genuine top 6 contenders.

Mowbray had a much cleaner slate to work from in regards to the playing squad, as well as the bonus of a clutch of younger talented players.

A lot of which he has manufactured himself by how he has integrated younger payers into the squad. I suppose both managers played the hands they were dealt at the time and did so pretty well so far. I think Mowbray edges it based off the fact Bowyer had Rhodes and Gestede. His budget was tight I will admit, but Mowbray found the likes of Dack and Rothwell.  Both managers are well up the list in the Venkys era.

We are at the stage now where a win or two can put us right up there, it's psychological. Hopefully we break through 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[JBiz]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I would rate Mowbray above Bowyer but in regards to what they inherited, you are doing Bowyer a disservice. He inherited a squad full of ageing players with no use and quite a few big egos on big contracts who it took a while for us to shift and pay off, Best, Murphy, Etuhu etc. 

Ultimately Mowbray's task was slightly more difficult (the draw at Burton took us 2 points from 21st with 14 games to go, so rhetoric about his points per game aside, it was not mission impossible and ultimately he failed) but much of the deadwood he inherited was about to go out of contract (Greer, Brown, Lowe, Guthrie) and he didnt have any bad influences in the way that Bowyer did. Mowbray then with not much in the way of useless shite still knocking around causing unrest/draining the finances, then successfully managed to get us back up again and deserved kudos for that. He has in more time still failed as of yet to get past that glass ceiling that Bowyer seldom managed to display any sign of being genuine top 6 contenders.

Mowbray had a much cleaner slate to work from in regards to the playing squad, as well as the bonus of a clutch of younger talented players.

Bowyer got a team (in first and second stint) with Rhodes in the team, at the time this was akin to getting a team with the best goal scorer in the league.

Tony Mowbray signed possibly 2020/21s top scorer in 2018 for 1.5/3m, and whilst thats only one example, its a similar story across the squad, as Dream’s points out - development thats worth recognition.

[Exiled in Toronto]

7 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Yes, which Rovers managers would you class as great ? Kenny, without a doubt.

Then it's - Souey, got a promotion and a serious cup ? Mark Hughes, who did really well for us when we were struggling ? Howard Kendall, another promotion and he went on to great things at Everton ? Gordon Lee, a Championship win, Ken Furphy, Jim Smith ? Big Sam, a success nearly everywhere he went ?

Johnny Carey, got us back into the big time and built the team that got to the Cup Final ? Jack Marshall, who created the best Rovers team I've ever seen but that never won anything ? Don MacKay and Bobby Saxton who both kept us in contention with next to nothing.

How many of them would you put before Tony Mowbray in long list of Rovers managers ? For me - most of them.

Using your terminology: “Mowbray, promotion and bringing through the best crop of youngsters in a generation.” Purely looking at their stints with us, I’d put him ahead of Jim Smith (couldn’t buy a centre forward worthy of the shirt), Saxton (his loyalty to players makes Mowbray look like Cruella DeVille) and Furphy (bottled the run in when we finished 3rd).

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

A lot of which he has manufactured himself by how he has integrated younger payers into the squad. I suppose both managers played the hands they were dealt at the time and did so pretty well so far. I think Mowbray edges it based off the fact Bowyer had Rhodes and Gestede. His budget was tight I will admit, but Mowbray found the likes of Dack and Rothwell.  Both managers are well up the list in the Venkys era.

We are at the stage now where a win or two can put us right up there, it's psychological. Hopefully we break through 

Bowyer inherited Rhodes and a couple of decent defenders but he signed Gestede for a nominal fee which was akin to Mowbray signing Dack/Armstrong. Rothwell for me has yet to fully announce himself with end product to be a signing to warrant loads of praise, the likes of Conway, Cairney and Marshall were far more productive.

I do wonder how much is psychological and how much is down to quality both on behalf of the players and managers to never be able to consistently get the points required to push into the top 6. Hopefully whatever it is, it is a glass ceiling that will soon smash.

Would agree that even though you are reliant on luck and circumstance to an extent in what you inherit (the youth teams in Bowyers era where not as healthy as they are now) you do have to nurture the youngsters and Mowbray has done that. Lenihan had already established himself by then but is still very important, Nyambe has definitely progressed although you could question his non selection at times and also his contractual situation, Raya is a big question mark considering how he was sold for cheap but he was given a couple of seasons as number 1 and neither Rankin Costello nor Buckley have yet done enough to establish themselves. They are all plusses but the main one that you can not question is Travis who suddenly became absolutely key.

In thr Venkys era aside from Big Sam of course they are the only 2 managers with any credibility for sure. Between Kean, Coyle, Berg, Appleton and Lambert there isnt a good manager between them.

1 hour ago, JBiz said:

Bowyer got a team (in first and second stint) with Rhodes in the team, at the time this was akin to getting a team with the best goal scorer in the league.

Tony Mowbray signed possibly 2020/21s top scorer in 2018 for 1.5/3m, and whilst thats only one example, its a similar story across the squad, as Dream’s points out - development thats worth recognition.

Armstrong and Dack were fantastic signings but Mowbray has had loads more money to spend compared to Bowyer. As mentioned Bowyer also signed a 20 goal a season striker for a minimal fee in Gestede, and whilst he did inherit Rhodes but he was very much the exception in a squad full of ageing/no mark and useless rubbish, many of whom were on big contracts and with seemingly poisonous. So whilst Mowbray didnt inherit a great striker like Rhodes, the overall squad was leaner, it wasnt saddled with egotistical high earning liabilities and was easier to inherit. That is my main point really.

Bowyer took us to 8th/9th (Mowbrays limit so far himself) and then with an embargo things began to somewhat understandably unravel and it became clear that he had missed his chance.

[47er]

6 hours ago, JBiz said:

If you look back, there is a two word part that is in bold. For me, TM has been a great manager - I guess my view of the state of the club before he arrived, was far worse than yours.

Doesn’t mean other choices would’ve done worse, I just think he’s done a very good job up to now. A promotion back to the premier league would put him into a lofty status in my opinion, in terms of managers we’ve had in our history.
 

 

Difference between "very good" and "great" is quite big. No?

I know Its your opinion but, in my opinion, you've got it wrong.

[JBiz]

10 hours ago, 47er said:

Difference between "very good" and "great" is quite big. No?

I know Its your opinion but, in my opinion, you've got it wrong.

Subjective semantics.

A lot of my judgement on Tony M comes from the absolute dumpster fire he inherited. It’s a complete different club in only 3 and a bit seasons