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January transfer window 2020

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Just now, arbitro said:

I was using Smallwood as an example but collectively all the deadwood who are out of contract will be costing us a lot of money between now and the end of June. Clearly Mulgrew (with 18 months left) would be the hardest to get rid of simply because of the numbers involved.

Absolutely, certainly not arguing the case for Smallwood being here, I just think there are bigger problems - the manager's transfer and contract renewal policy being one of them. 

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Just now, DE. said:

As he's not even in the match day squad and probably won't play for us again his appearance bonus won't count for much tbf. 

Even if Smallwood is on upwards of 7-8k that's still a lot for a League 1 club, especially considering sign on/agent fees. I imagine most of them will be waiting until the summer when Smallwood is out of contract and his demands may be a lot lower. This contract will probably be the best he'll get for the rest of his career, so I imagine he'd want more to move now than he will in the summer. 

I agree but that's the whole point of why he should be shown the door but TM is far too happy to let things like this lie.  Whichever way you dress it up carrying the likes of him holds the club back now in the transfer market.

Not ruthless enough down there buy a long way, that doesn't mean they have to be nasty but the good of the first team comes first. Carrying deadwood or players for sentimental reasons doesn't gain you anything on the FFP balance sheet.

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1 minute ago, DE. said:

Absolutely, certainly not arguing the case for Smallwood being here, I just think there are bigger problems - the manager's transfer and contract renewal policy being one of them. 

Mowbray cited 'a business decision' for sending Cunningham back to Cardiff which I fully understand but where was the 'business decisions' when he was giving out silly contracts disproportionate to players abilty? The best for Rovers would be to try and clear the decks now in my view and that is where the focus of Waggott and Mowbray should be.

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Just now, tomphil said:

I agree but that's the whole point of why he should be shown the door but TM is far too happy to let things like this lie.  Whichever way you dress it up carrying the likes of him holds the club back now in the transfer market.

Not ruthless enough down there buy a long way, that doesn't mean they have to be nasty but the good of the first team comes first. Carrying deadwood or players for sentimental reasons doesn't gain you anything on the FFP balance sheet.

I agree that it isn't a good situation, and it's not the first time we've been in this position over the years. We lost money on almost every signing in the Kean era, and although we did a lot better during Bowyer's tenure we still gave certain players contracts which made them essentially impossible to move on, even on a free. I dread to think the amount we've wasted either terminating contracts of players we couldn't sell or letting contracts of useless players run down because nobody else was willing to pay what we were. I thought that kind of mismanagement might be behind us after the dual-accountancy firm audit a few years ago... but here we are again. 

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12 hours ago, Pedro said:

How many permanent TM signings have actually come good and had an impact that has anywhere near matched their contract?

 

Apologies if I have missed anyone but I think they are largely absolutely pitiful dealings and MILLIONS have been  wasted in fees and wages.  I wouldn't trust him with another penny and (alongside the poor tactics and selections) just don't get the love in with him.

 

 

 

Some very harsh judgements there for me, plenty of low-risk signings there which have either contributed whilst they were here or still very much have the potential to. Judging Nuttall as not worth his contract when we signed him on a free for the youth team, scored a few goals for us then sold on a profit seems harsh. Some other small investments who were fine, even if they weren't in the plans for the future, like Rodwell or P. Downing.

We didn't worry about wasting money on fees and wages for Maceo Rigters, Bruno Berner and Johan Vogel when the profits from Santa-Cruz and Bentley pay for them fifty times over. I don't see why we should worry about the money 'wasted' on the likes of Hart, Lyons, Caddis, P. Downing or Rodwelll when you think about how much the value has increased for Dack, Armstrong and Rothwell.

Can't disagree that the Brereton transfer is looking more and more like it might be an expensive error, but there's no doubting that the squad's value has increased enormously since TM took over, and by more than the outlay we've spent on transfer fees. Dack might be doing a bit of the heavy lifting for that, but Armstrong's value will have tripled since we signed him and Rothwell is certainly worth much more than the few hundred grand we paid for him.

 

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2 hours ago, JacknOry said:

Goal stats are not that great at senior level - though obviously he was prolific at youth level. 

Ya, but have you seen him play? Could be lethal at this level. 

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Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya, but have you seen him play? Could be lethal at this level. 

Is he the new Ben Brereton?

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Just now, Amo said:

Is he the new Ben Brereton?

What do you mean? Are you just saying Breretons name out of context in every response? 

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Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

What do you mean? Are you just saying Breretons name out of context in every response? 

Literally first time I mentioned him.

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42 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

Some very harsh judgements there for me, plenty of low-risk signings there which have either contributed whilst they were here or still very much have the potential to. Judging Nuttall as not worth his contract when we signed him on a free for the youth team, scored a few goals for us then sold on a profit seems harsh. Some other small investments who were fine, even if they weren't in the plans for the future, like Rodwell or P. Downing.

We didn't worry about wasting money on fees and wages for Maceo Rigters, Bruno Berner and Johan Vogel when the profits from Santa-Cruz and Bentley pay for them fifty times over. I don't see why we should worry about the money 'wasted' on the likes of Hart, Lyons, Caddis, P. Downing or Rodwelll when you think about how much the value has increased for Dack, Armstrong and Rothwell.

Can't disagree that the Brereton transfer is looking more and more like it might be an expensive error, but there's no doubting that the squad's value has increased enormously since TM took over, and by more than the outlay we've spent on transfer fees. Dack might be doing a bit of the heavy lifting for that, but Armstrong's value will have tripled since we signed him and Rothwell is certainly worth much more than the few hundred grand we paid for him.

 

Like it or not but  Dack's worth nothing until he starts playing at his previous level again. Armstrong, we might get more than we paid.. Rothwell, the juries out as to what he's worth but it won't be a lot.

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Rankin-Costello is ahead of Smallwood at the moment. Best would be to sell him.

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13 hours ago, Pedro said:

How many permanent TM signings have actually come good and had an impact that has anywhere near matched their contract?

Dack - definitely

S Downing - absolutely

Armstrong - Yes

P Downing - No. Now left

Bell - No. Contract up in the summer

Rodwell - No. Now left.

Smallwood - yes league one, unused for a year so No. Contract up in the summer.

Chapman - No. 

Samuel - No.

Gladwin - No. Now left.

Rothwell - No, only fleetingly.

Holtby - not yet

Davenport - no

Brereton - No

Gallagher - Not yet

Johnson - No

Whittingham - No. Now left.

Nuttall - No. Now left.

Hart - No. Effectively left.

Caddis- No. Now left.

Leutweiller - No

Lyons - No

 

 

 

Apologies if I have missed anyone but I think they are largely absolutely pitiful dealings and MILLIONS have been  wasted in fees and wages.  I wouldn't trust him with another penny and (alongside the poor tactics and selections) just don't get the love in with him.

 

 

You missed out the inexplicable loan of Harper.

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13 hours ago, Pedro said:

How many permanent TM signings have actually come good and had an impact that has anywhere near matched their contract?

Dack - definitely

S Downing - absolutely

Armstrong - Yes

P Downing - No. Now left

Bell - No. Contract up in the summer

Rodwell - No. Now left.

Smallwood - yes league one, unused for a year so No. Contract up in the summer.

Chapman - No. 

Samuel - No.

Gladwin - No. Now left.

Rothwell - No, only fleetingly.

Holtby - not yet

Davenport - no

Brereton - No

Gallagher - Not yet

Johnson - No

Whittingham - No. Now left.

Nuttall - No. Now left.

Hart - No. Effectively left.

Caddis- No. Now left.

Leutweiller - No

Lyons - No

 

 

 

Apologies if I have missed anyone but I think they are largely absolutely pitiful dealings and MILLIONS have been  wasted in fees and wages.  I wouldn't trust him with another penny and (alongside the poor tactics and selections) just don't get the love in with him.

 

 

Would be interesting to put agents names alongside that list.

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15 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

You missed out the inexplicable loan of Harper.

In fairness he did state permanent signings at the top of the post.

I pretty much agree with the assessments, although I'd say Paul Downing was a success overall as he did much better than expected, and Nutall could probably be considered successful as well due to the low fee/wages and the return we got on the pitch and in the eventual sale. 

On the whole though our permanent signings have been pretty poor. No point anybody taking about speculative squad value as that only counts when we actually sell somebody for decent profit. Dack in particular is a total question mark after his injury.

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Austrian International left back Christian Fuchs at Leicester available. Maybe a loan until end of season? 

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24 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

You missed out the inexplicable loan of Harper.

This one actually set Travis’ development back 6 months.

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8 hours ago, MarkBRFC said:

Its frustrating that the likes of Smallwood and Samuel are picking up a decent wage whilst doing nothing, but I don't blame them for wanting to see out there contracts for the sake of 6 months, these are probably the best deals either of them will have in there career.

I have to say though, as things stand in the summer we'll need to do a hell of lot of work just to stand still in this league.

You can't blame the players.

The blame lies at the door of those who negotiated / signed-off the deals on behalf of Rovers.

I think there's a staggering lack of business / commercial nous within Rovers.  

IMO, the shortcomings of Mowbray and Waggott are evident yet again. 

Edited by Mercer

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1 minute ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Like it or not but  Dack's worth nothing until he starts playing at his previous level again. Armstrong, we might get more than we paid.. Rothwell, the juries out as to what he's worth but it won't be a lot.

Fair enough on Dack's injury, but my point is that looking at signings one by one, then giving them a yes/no success/failure isn't a misleading and unfair way of looking at how well TM has spent money. If you get the big stuff right, then all the loans and speculative young players who don't make it really don't matter. That's why we remember Sparky for his gems and not his dross, because every mamanger has them.

I'm not especially good at judging transfer values these days, but Armstrong is a young, English lightning quick forward who scores and sets up goals. Inconsistent, yes, but it seems to me that 6 million in the modern game is a fairly conservative estimate of what he could go for. Rothwell on this season's form wouldn't fetch as much, but certainly enough to pay for himself and go a long way in covering most of the other small fees on the likes of Bell, Davenport etc.

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4 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

You know the way Mowbray has always let guys get the best move for themselves, like say when he let Ward go on loan for the last 6 months if his contract,Paul Downing too? It's what he does. Well I was thinking , do the players not owe the club the same? I mean should Samuel and Smallwood not take paycuys to go and free up some wages here? Particularly as things are tight. It seems the treating players fairly and as human beings is a one way street. 

Maybe that's a bit harsh and I don't know what offers are there, but I agree we do need to move players on who won't feature. 

You cant expect players to give up contracts that give them and their family financial security to rush through deals elsewhere because we have now decided that we dont want them prior to the expiry of a contract we mutually agreed with them at the start. Or to give up potentially tens of thousands of pounds as some sort of moral decision to try and maximise our clubs meagre kitty. 

The club and Mowbray are responsible for prematurely giving Smallwood a new deal as soon as we was promoted, when his past CV showed that he was very capable at League 1 level but had struggled with the jump to the Championship in the past. With Samuel, he has never been good enough from the start. I dont hold any sort of grudge towards either player and fully understand their position. Samuel has not long since recovered from serious injury. Theres plenty of logic in training hard for the rest of the season, ticking over in the under 23s if need be, being well remunerated, and then being able to negotiate a deal with more options available seeing as they have no strings attached regarding picking up part of an existing contract.

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2 hours ago, Silas said:

Legacy was maybe a bit strong. But almost 2 decades as a manager, years served at top level in the Prem, managed one of biggest clubs in UK at Celtic. Not to be sniffed at.

Maybe, but what we're doing with him at the moment is a load of "butts"!

IMO, Mowbray's managerial record is very average.

He did okay at Hibs and got WBA promoted to the PL only to be relegated in their first season back.  I think he disappointed at Celtic and failed to get M'boro back to the PL in a fairly lengthy second spell there.  We know how Coventry ended up.  He failed to keep Rovers up when that's what he was appointed for, got us back at the first attempt with the biggest budget in the division but, IMO, we are as far away from the PL as ever. 

In actual fact, I think you will find he's managed in the PL for just one year and not 'years' as you say.

I think Mowbray has done very well out of the game on the back of, IMO, a very mixed and indifferent managerial record.

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1 hour ago, Amo said:

Literally first time I mentioned him.

What was your point as in he's the new Brereton, I dont get it? 

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21 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You cant expect players to give up contracts that give them and their family financial security to rush through deals elsewhere because we have now decided that we dont want them prior to the expiry of a contract we mutually agreed with them at the start. Or to give up potentially tens of thousands of pounds as some sort of moral decision to try and maximise our clubs meagre kitty. 

The club and Mowbray are responsible for prematurely giving Smallwood a new deal as soon as we was promoted, when his past CV showed that he was very capable at League 1 level but had struggled with the jump to the Championship in the past. With Samuel, he has never been good enough from the start. I dont hold any sort of grudge towards either player and fully understand their position. Samuel has not long since recovered from serious injury. Theres plenty of logic in training hard for the rest of the season, ticking over in the under 23s if need be, being well remunerated, and then being able to negotiate a deal with more options available seeing as they have no strings attached regarding picking up part of an existing contract.

You have a unique knack of disagreeing with practically every post,even ones where people agree with you. Are you like that in real life?

When you say you wouldn't expect players to rush through deals ,family security yada yada, I would agree except for the fact they are footballers. So actually moving earlier and playing football for the next 6 months would benefit their careers in the long run. 

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18 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Theres plenty of logic in training hard for the rest of the season, ticking over in the under 23s if need be, being well remunerated, and then being able to negotiate a deal with more options available seeing as they have no strings attached regarding picking up part of an existing contract.

bet Ben Marshall thought the same last summer. look where he playing now and the level. 

could happen to Smallwood now

Surely both players want to be first team football and not just train every week? 

18 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You cant expect players to give up contracts that give them and their family financial security to rush through deals

rush through deals? surely its been know for months that neither player will be first team squad this season. The player's agent should have been looking for clubs for them. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I would agree except for the fact they are footballers. So actually moving earlier and playing football for the next 6 months would benefit their careers in the long run. 

I agreed

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Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

You have a unique knack of disagreeing with practically every post,even ones where people agree with you. Are you like that in real life?

When you say you wouldn't expect players to rush through deals ,family security yada yada, I would agree except for the fact they are footballers. So actually moving earlier and playing football for the next 6 months would benefit their careers in the long run. 

If the right deal came about now whereby the players wage wouldnt go down(ie it was partially covered by 2 teams) and it was at a team that the player wanted to go to, then im sure the players would consider it. But I was just pointing out that I dont think that players have any sort of moral obligation to seek a new club immediately out if loyalty. A footballers career is short and if they feel that they are best served allowing their healthy contract to expire and then seek a new club without having the problem of covering an existing contract, then there is nothing wrong with that.

It is in our best interest to move them on but I am looking at it from the players point of view.

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