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GunnerRover7

January transfer window 2020

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44 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Can I also point out that Williams isn't the required quality at left back either. He isn't an utter liability there and just poor which makes him better than some options we have played there, but only in a team where Bell, Hart and Bennett are amongst the alternatives is Williams going to look ok. I didn't rate him there in league 1 and don't rate him there now. Sure he's turned out to be an ok centre back but even that he is viewed more positively then he should be because his performances are compared favourably to his weak outings at full back. 

Not sure Bell is the required standard either and it's a bit frustrating. Theres a player in there, his inclusion in League 1 team of the year also indicates there's potential, and he has the physical attributes but just no football brain. Full back is imo one of the positions that requires football intelligence the most and I'm not sure this can be taught. So Bell lacking this makes me feel we will never see that potential realised. Is it worth the gamble of another season. Can't say I'm convinced. That said I would keep him over Williams If I had to keep one as both are poor but there is a chance Bell could develop into a player whereas there's none of Williams improving. In an ideal world both need jettisoning if Rovers are to progress and improve. 

There are 2 advantages for Williams over Bell, 1 that he can play 2 positions (centre back actually with more competence) and the main one is that his contract isnt about to expire. As you say, neither will help us progress.

There are 2 scenarios IMO, none of which see extending Bells contract as a good idea and thus whether we are waiting to see if promotion is achieved before committing to anything (or more so if Venkys are sitting on their hands) or not is irrelevant. If we somehow went up, it goes without saying that Bell is excess baggage. If we stayed down ie the most likely scenario and are desperate to save the pennies, then a new signing could potentially take Bells wage and place in the team, with neither Williams nor Downing any less competent as cover as well as being versatile.

This is why this wait and see scenario regarding budgets and transfers does not make sense. If we could steal a march and get a cheapish left back agreed, whether its Cunningham, whether its Morgan Fox on a free, whoever it is, even if we got promoted and the assumption being that the aforementioned signing was not Premier League standard, it would at least ensure that we could afford and would have in competition/back up for a left back signed with the additional resources Premier League football would bring.

As it is, unless we get an unlikely promotion I cant see past Bell starting at LB at the start of next season.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Blue blood said:

Can I also point out that Williams isn't the required quality at left back either. He isn't an utter liability there and just poor

No, no he is an utter liability there. Feels like some people have forgotten because of his better performances at CB, but he really is an utter liability at LB. He was responsible for so many goals playing there last season it was ludicrous. I dreaded seeing him on the team sheet more than anyone else back then. At least Mulgrew scored a lot of goals.

Edited by bluebruce

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It’s pretty simple to me. I’d try to keep most of the squad together (bearing in mind we’ve had a good season and are fighting for a playoff spot).

Mowbray said that the club would trigger the 12 month option on Bell at the fans forum in Feb and I’d offer Samuel, Downing and Graham another year.

Aside from that, Lenihan, Nyambe, Travis and Armstrong will be a year on and the like of Bucko, Butterworth and JRC are headed for big break through seasons too. 

A keeper (maybe two), left back and cb needed. Plenty of great loan options and out of contract players. Could see us going back for Cunningham for a nominal fee.

Then we go again!

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Posted (edited)

On Mowbray, I would say people need to give him a break and not analyse to death every word that comes out of his mouth. He's not the world's best manager by a long stretch.  He's human, so he makes mistakes and shows inconsistencies. He's trying to balance breeding / maintaining confidence within the squad whilst shielding the club & players from understandable flak towards the owners & the corporate structure of the club. In doing so, despite the adversities suffered this season re injuries to key players, we're well in the hunt for top 6. 

My main criticism of this season would be about lost points from winning positions. Even 25% less would see us up there pushing for auto promotion.  All teams will view us as a dangerous opponent, albeit with weaknesses.  If we can improve game management and not lose leads so frequently, the playoffs are the for us & we would all have considered that a good season back in August, regardless of how we got there.

On the Bell & Williams debate, both will make good cover options in a team pushing promotion & both will have suitors if they're available free or cheap. Whilst none of us are overly enamoured with either, Bell has pedigree as a top L1 player and Williams is an Irish international. Of course there will be demand for them if they are made available by Mowbray.

Edited by Atko's Engine

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8 hours ago, bluebruce said:

No, no he is an utter liability there. Feels like some people have forgotten because of his better performances at CB, but he really is an utter liability at LB. He was responsible for so many goals playing there last season it was ludicrous. I dreaded seeing him on the team sheet more than anyone else back then. At least Mulgrew scored a lot of goals.

Spot on. Anyone thinking Williams is a good LB has forgotten the amount of times he made a monumental mistake leading to countless goalsm.

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I dont think anyone has stated that Williams is a good left back or even a good player. But neither is Bell and we had a chance to cut him off. Assuming that we stay in the Championship, are working on a budget and are signing a new left back, as far as cover goes, having Downing and Williams as cover in that position makes the additional cover of Bell a little unnecessary considering the restraints, especially when the above 2 are a step above the standard of our cover at right back for example in Bennett.

The main point which has been lost is why renewing Bells contract doesnt come under the same policy of putting EVERYTHING on hold, budgets, transfers and new contracts, until we know what division we are in. Its a stupid policy anyway consistent with Venkys reign of terror but what I dont get is how Bell's future has become critical enough to override that policy.

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2 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I dont think anyone has stated that Williams is a good left back or even a good player. But neither is Bell and we had a chance to cut him off. Assuming that we stay in the Championship, are working on a budget and are signing a new left back, as far as cover goes, having Downing and Williams as cover in that position makes the additional cover of Bell a little unnecessary considering the restraints, especially when the above 2 are a step above the standard of our cover at right back for example in Bennett.

The main point which has been lost is why renewing Bells contract doesnt come under the same policy of putting EVERYTHING on hold, budgets, transfers and new contracts, until we know what division we are in. Its a stupid policy anyway consistent with Venkys reign of terror but what I dont get is how Bell's future has become critical enough to override that policy.

Bell is miles ahead of Williams which in itself isn't great. But surely we are looking to sell Williams I think to the MLS. 

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If it came to a choice between the two on who to keep just as cover i'd probably choose Williams to be honest.

Can cover 2 positions and if push comes to shove is probably the better one at left back, the ideal squaddie.

 

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12 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

 

This is why this wait and see scenario regarding budgets and transfers does not make sense. If we could steal a march and get a cheapish left back agreed, whether its Cunningham, whether its Morgan Fox on a free, whoever it is, even if we got promoted and the assumption being that the aforementioned signing was not Premier League standard, it would at least ensure that we could afford and would have in competition/back up for a left back signed with the additional resources Premier League football would bring.

As it is, unless we get an unlikely promotion I cant see past Bell starting at LB at the start of next season.

is Morgan Fox any better than Bell? Was very poor against us when we beat them 5 nil.  

 

42 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I dont think anyone has stated that Williams is a good left back or even a good player. But neither is Bell and we had a chance to cut him off. Assuming that we stay in the Championship, are working on a budget and are signing a new left back, as far as cover goes, having Downing and Williams as cover in that position makes the additional cover of Bell a little unnecessary considering the restraints, especially when the above 2 are a step above the standard of our cover at right back for example in Bennett.

The main point which has been lost is why renewing Bells contract doesnt come under the same policy of putting EVERYTHING on hold, budgets, transfers and new contracts, until we know what division we are in. Its a stupid policy anyway consistent with Venkys reign of terror but what I dont get is how Bell's future has become critical enough to override that policy.

The points you are overlooking every time with regards to next season's budget is currently we don't know what EFL are doing in terms of FFP rules being relax and is this salary cap being introduce next season plus when is next season starting and when will transfer window open and close. All these unknowns which every time you failed to acknowledge need to be sorted first 

 

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

The points you are overlooking every time with regards to next season's budget is currently we don't know what EFL are doing in terms of FFP rules being relax and is this salary cap being introduce next season plus when is next season starting and when will transfer window open and close. All these unknowns which every time you failed to acknowledge need to be sorted first 

 

So, if they do relax the FFP rules for a season, do you think the Venkys are primed to splash out or something?  

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9 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

is Morgan Fox any better than Bell? Was very poor against us when we beat them 5 nil. 

 

The points you are overlooking every time with regards to next season's budget is currently we don't know what EFL are doing in terms of FFP rules being relax and is this salary cap being introduce next season plus when is next season starting and when will transfer window open and close. All these unknowns which every time you failed to acknowledge need to be sorted first 

 

In fairness, I bet nobody played well for a team that got beat 5-0....

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5 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

So, if they do relax the FFP rules for a season, do you think the Venkys are primed to splash out or something?  

Not on Tony’s watch.

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17401247.rovers-owners-prepared-spend-january-says-boss/

A big budget brings pressure to use it well. 

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Game of opinions and all that, but I’ve honestly not seen a part of Bell’s game that is good enough for a side that want to be a contender for PL promotion on a consistent basis.

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8 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

is Morgan Fox any better than Bell? Was very poor against us when we beat them 5 nil.  

 

The points you are overlooking every time with regards to next season's budget is currently we don't know what EFL are doing in terms of FFP rules being relax and is this salary cap being introduce next season plus when is next season starting and when will transfer window open and close. All these unknowns which every time you failed to acknowledge need to be sorted first 

 

No idea. And FFP has no bearing on the point I am making. If we are totally unsure on budget partially due to FFP, then it makes more sense NOT to extend Bell's contract, consistent with the other policies on contracts. That is my point.

I am being prudent and assuming we are a Championship club and with very little money, the most likely scenario. if we bring in a cheap left back, considering we will also have Downing and Williams as cover, for me having additional cover in the shape of Bell is unnecessary expenditure, FFP or no FFP.

3 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

So, if they do relax the FFP rules for a season, do you think the Venkys are primed to splash out or something?  

Apparently FFP is the only thing that stops them from writing off cheques!

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Just now, Mattyblue said:

Game of opinions and all that, but I’ve honestly not seen a part of Bell’s game that is good enough for a side that want to be a contender for PL promotion on a consistent basis.

Agreed. Very passive defensively, and a myth that he is a good attacking full back, very hesitant and seldom if ever puts in a dangerous cross, often opting to check back and play a safe pass.

Renewing his contract doesnt fit into any of the scenarios for me. Premier League, obviously he goes. Championship, we replace him and assuming money is tight, have Downing and Williams as cover, neither of whom is less capable in that role.

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Posted (edited)

He is 26 now too, not a young up and coming player anymore. By now we should be seeing close to the final product - which as it stands is not that great. Difficult to imagine he can get much better from here on in. If he cannot nail down a permanent spot in the championship by now, he unlikely ever will - League 1 is his level. We didnt bring in Cunnigham not to start, so it would seem that TM does not see Bell as the longterm answer either. 

 

Edited by JacknOry

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24 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

So, if they do relax the FFP rules for a season, do you think the Venkys are primed to splash out or something?  

Relaxing FFP rules would means we wouldn't have to sell a key player or 2

14 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

No idea. And FFP has no bearing on the point I am making. If we are totally unsure on budget partially due to FFP, then it makes more sense NOT to extend Bell's contract, consistent with the other policies on contracts. That is my point.

I am being prudent and assuming we are a Championship club and with very little money, the most likely scenario. if we bring in a cheap left back, considering we will also have Downing and Williams as cover, for me having additional cover in the shape of Bell is unnecessary expenditure, FFP or no FFP.

 

Of course FFP rules or salary cap has an impact on the point you are making tho on next season budget. Extending Bell by 12 months covers us for next season whether he is 1st or 2nd choice. 

You mention a cheap left back but would he be any cheaper than extending Bell's contract for 12 months? when you factor in wages, player signing on fee and agent fees and possible transfer or loan fee involved. 

I wouldn't expect us to be signing players for millions like Gallagher or Brereton but I would say we need possible 5 or 6 sensible signings in the summer in terms of 2 keepers, a full back, 2 centre backs and possible 1 winger. whether its a 3 or 4 permanent signings and 1 or 2 loans. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, chaddyrovers said:

Relaxing FFP rules would means we wouldn't have to sell a key player or 2

Of course FFP rules or salary cap has an impact on the point you are making tho on next season budget. Extending Bell by 12 months covers us for next season whether he is 1st or 2nd choice. 

You mention a cheap left back but would he be any cheaper than extending Bell's contract for 12 months? when you factor in wages, player signing on fee and agent fees and possible transfer or loan fee involved. 

I wouldn't expect us to be signing players for millions like Gallagher or Brereton but I would say we need possible 5 or 6 sensible signings in the summer in terms of 2 keepers, a full back, 2 centre backs and possible 1 winger. whether its a 3 or 4 permanent signings and 1 or 2 loans. 

 

 

But you have regularly declared a want for another left back, so what I am saying is that there is no reason to extend Bell's contract now. If we are fairly skint and in the Championship, replace Bell on the cheap, having Bell AS WELL is an expense we cant justify surely or at least commit too now if we had a new left back plus Downing and Williams to cover for injury. Bell is an unnecessary additional option if we are strapped for cash.

Nothing you say has any logic. You approve of waiting to budget and hand out new deals "until we know what division we are in." Fine, but extended Bell's contract NOW goes against that totally. Especially when you yourself want a left back (as well as loads of other signings as per a normal transfer window) AND to keep Bell!

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1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

But you have regularly declared a want for another left back, so what I am saying is that there is no reason to extend Bell's contract now. If we are fairly skint and in the Championship, replace Bell on the cheap, having Bell AS WELL is an expense we cant justify surely or at least commit too now if we had a new left back plus Downing and Williams to cover for injury. Bell is an unnecessary additional option if we are strapped for cash.

Nothing you say has any logic. You approve of waiting to budget and hand out new deals "until we know what division we are in." Fine, but extended Bell's contract NOW goes against that totally. Especially when you yourself want a left back (as well as loads of other signings as per a normal transfer window) AND to keep Bell!

Replace Bell on the cheap? isnt that going to more expensive to find a cheap replacement when Bell is on about 5k a week at best but a new signing would probably cost more when you factor in wages, agent fee, player signings on fee. 

I have said we need sign a full back. We also have a young left back coming through who probably isnt ready for championship football next season but a loan move next season where he is playing regular then he would be ready for the season after. 

Rovers had a club option to extend Bell's contract for 1 year, more likely at the same wage so no extra cost on budget. 

loads of other signings? I have just said around 5 or 6 signings this summer and their positions(2 keepers, 2 centre backs and 1 full back plus possible winger).. is that loads? other posters have said 10. surely that's loads 

I would let Williams go and use Carter or Maglorie as 4th choice and development them. 

 

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Replace Bell on the cheap? isnt that going to more expensive to find a cheap replacement when Bell is on about 5k a week at best but a new signing would probably cost more when you factor in wages, agent fee, player signings on fee. 

I have said we need sign a full back. We also have a young left back coming through who probably isnt ready for championship football next season but a loan move next season where he is playing regular then he would be ready for the season after. 

Rovers had a club option to extend Bell's contract for 1 year, more likely at the same wage so no extra cost on budget. 

loads of other signings? I have just said around 5 or 6 signings this summer and their positions(2 keepers, 2 centre backs and 1 full back plus possible winger).. is that loads? other posters have said 10. surely that's loads 

I would let Williams go and use Carter or Maglorie as 4th choice and development them. 

 

Why is Bell being on 5k a week now gospel 😂

You quite clearly dont see the inconsistent and flawed logic of adopting a wait to see what division we are in etc policy but signing Bell for am extra year prematurely. You also seem not to realise that both suggestions involve signing a left back but yours also has Bell ASWELL. Its like talking to a brick wall so I will leave it there.

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7 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Why is Bell being on 5k a week now gospel 😂

You quite clearly dont see the inconsistent and flawed logic of adopting a wait to see what division we are in etc policy but signing Bell for am extra year prematurely. You also seem not to realise that both suggestions involve signing a left back but yours also has Bell ASWELL. Its like talking to a brick wall so I will leave it there.

Well yes cos I would let William's go instead as I said before which you miss!

So no reply to this again isnt that going to more expensive to find a cheap replacement when Bell is on about 5k a week at best(I guess) but a new signing would probably cost more when you factor in wages, agent fee, player signings on fee. 

Also when did I say loads of signings? Another comment without any evidence of me saying this by yourself again. More BS!

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Williams over bell all day.

williams is a decent cb and a poor left back. Bell is just poor. He hasn’t improved in the whole time he’s been here. He can’t tackle , he checkS back and plays It safe without putting a cross in. He seems to lack confidence and he hasnt grown and fulfilled his potential the way I thought he would because he has the attributes. Ultimately he is a defender that can’t defend. Williams is decent cb cover and had never let us down when played there. The answer is clearly we need a new LB 

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Said it before will say it again - when we are debating who is less crap rather than who is better, as in the case of our left backs, you know there are real issues. 

For me we need:

A good solid championship keeper who is ours.

A decent back up keeper better than Leus. 

A proper championship quality left back. 

A proper championship quality centre back to replace Tosin. 

A reserve centre back for when Lenihen is injured. Who could also perhaps provide full back cover. And by this I mean better than Williams. 

A proper defensive/centre mid to partner Travis. As in someone better than and less injured than Evans. 

A wide attacking forward/wide midfielder who adds width. 

A quality  target man striker. 

 

You could argue we get away without either  a target man or wide forward with Armstrong occupying one of these roles, but really is it good that he is the only striker likely to score? You could also say between Downing, Johnson and Evans we don't need a partner for Travis. But two are aging, one is injured and Downing covers multiple positions. You could say Williams is cover for CB and lb but it's questionable he is of the required quality at CB and definitely not at lb.you could say a youth player could cover reserve keeper but that's heck of a risk.  So I think there is a case for needing 8 players to make this squad promotion worthy. Even best case scenario needs 4 or 5. For the record I don't think we will get near this in terms of numbers or recruits but this is what I think is needed. Perhaps players in the squad will step up and fulfil these roles to this level. Again though I can't see it happening 

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Rudy Gestede is available on a free. Wonder if Tony wants another massive fake winger???

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I think first of all we need a new manager. I like Mowbray and the steady job he's done. But he's not done anything more than Bowyer, who was binned off by this stage in his tenure. Even Mowbray has talked about 3year cycles in management, which means he should be done according to his own theory. If we have any aspirations for the Premier league, it's time for a parting of the ways.

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