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General Election 2019

General Election 2019 Poll  

70 members have voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. Who will you be voting for in the 2019 General Election?

    • Conservative
      24
    • Labour
      34
    • SNP
      1
    • Liberal Democrat
      6
    • DUP
      0
    • Green Party
      0
    • Independent Group for Change
      0
    • Brexit Party
      2
    • UKIP
      0
    • Plaid Cymru
      2
    • Independent candidate
      0
    • Other
      1


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48 minutes ago, Gav said:

We have a prime minister that lies every time his lips are moving.

We have an NHS in crisis, coupled with very real social care crisis and the tories answer - cross party talks - 10yrs you've had to sort this out! 

Child poverty at a record high.

Schools that have no equipment and have to close 1 day a week.

Homelessness at record levels.

No social housing. 

200,000 starter homes promised by the Tories, £174m spent and not 1 house built.

Police numbers slashed by 20,000.

Scrapped nursing bursaries which resulted in a 30% drop in recruitment.

Bedroom tax, universal credit and Camerons disastrous top down NHS restructure which was scrapped and cost the tax payer £4bn.

Crumbling roads, trains that never run but the prices keep going up.

Grenfell tower - contracts to operate ferries when you don't own a ferry! - privatisation of the probation service which has been a disaster.

 

All this and much more, yet they're looking like winning a majority - WTF is wrong with people? how can anyone vote for more of this?

 

 

We have a lot of sheep in the Ribble Valley. 

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15 hours ago, philipl said:

Chaddy, I read your answers.

The example you have given is a fantastic example of how the system worked because of how things were.

The NHS is able to drive hard bargains because we were the home to the European Medicines Agency and any American supplier with an eye to the European Market had to price accordingly.

And Trump is determined to end all this.

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16 hours ago, 47er said:

This is what you call debate!

And, in fact, you haven't answered Jim's question about how you have been personally affected from being in the EU although he's put it many times.

You avoid questions and posters you don't like.

Chaddy can answer exactly how he wishes without being attacked for it by some of the usual suspects on here, that's not debate that's bullying. Oh and he's not the only one who thinks Jim has an attitude. He has accused me of being a liar on at least one occasion that I can remember. 

Edited by old darwen blue

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21 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

Is the idea of a messageboard to have a debate and challenge opinions?

The frustration is when people make statements that they cannot or are unwilling to defend

Absolutely Jim, I agree. 
But if he doesn’t want to answer the question for whatever reason, then I don’t think there’s much value in repeatedly asking him....

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6 hours ago, old darwen blue said:

Chaddy can answer exactly how he wishes without being attacked for it by some of the usual suspects on here, that's not debate that's bullying. Oh and he's not the only one who thinks Jim has an attitude. He has accused me of being a liar on at least one occasion that I can remember. 

I dont think it can be called bullying when he puts himself in a certain position or makes a statement and then when asked to clarify or explain his logic or even answer a straightforward question, he simply refuses to do so. If you take up a position diametrically opposed to the majority of those posting then you need to be capable of and willing to explain your grounds for that position. Chaddy keeps telling us hell be voting Tory and, whilst the majority of us cant understand why, we respect that decision, but, since we cant understand it, wed like to have it explained. The Im all right Jack attitude that Chaddy displays seems incredible in the extreme to large numbers of us when faced with the evidence that most things have got worse in the last 10 years. The naivety he displays in thinking he has a secure job etc in the current world economic climate and especially with all experts telling us that leaving the EU will have a further negative impact is unbelievable to many and I for one just want him to wake up and smell the coffee before we sleepwalk off a cliff into the nodeal brexit Johnson and his allies so desire. I've no personal animosity towards Chaddy. I just want him to engage in proper discussion instead of saying I've told you already when, the majority of the time, he actually hasn't.

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6 hours ago, old darwen blue said:

Chaddy can answer exactly how he wishes without being attacked for it by some of the usual suspects on here, that's not debate that's bullying. Oh and he's not the only one who thinks Jim has an attitude. He has accused me of being a liar on at least one occasion that I can remember. 

The problem being that he doesn't answer at all, he either avoids the question or repeats what he's already asserted ad infinitum.

Its a bit like that sketch on Monty Python where Cleese was paid to argue only not funny.

 

Edited by 47er

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He doesn't debate because he cannot form a coherent argument - at least one that makes sense. They're usually generalisations with no detail or understanding, or at least an attempt to learn, how things work in practice, eg trade. Johnson's the same - all bluster and big picture but when questioned on the detail he doesn't have a clue. 

Anyway, back to the election and the forthcoming hung parliament

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That's apparently looking more likely because the Tories have already taken up kost of the vote available to them whereas Labour still have more to pick up if people vote tactically. Was reading an article this morning.

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Just now, gumboots said:

I dont think it can be called bullying when he puts himself in a certain position or makes a statement and then when asked to clarify or explain his logic or even answer a straightforward question, he simply refuses to do so. If you take up a position diametrically opposed to the majority of those posting then you need to be capable of and willing to explain your grounds for that position. Chaddy keeps telling us hell be voting Tory and, whilst the majority of us cant understand why, we respect that decision, but, since we cant understand it, wed like to have it explained. The Im all right Jack attitude that Chaddy displays seems incredible in the extreme to large numbers of us when faced with the evidence that most things have got worse in the last 10 years. The naivety he displays in thinking he has a secure job etc in the current world economic climate and especially with all experts telling us that leaving the EU will have a further negative impact is unbelievable to many and I for one just want him to wake up and smell the coffee before we sleepwalk off a cliff into the nodeal brexit Johnson and his allies so desire. I've no personal animosity towards Chaddy. I just want him to engage in proper discussion instead of saying I've told you already when, the majority of the time, he actually hasn't.

Not all experts, for the sake of some much-needed neutrality in this debate.

Brexit, like most things in British politics, has become such a polarised subject that it is difficult to find the "middle" anymore. The one side believe we'll be back to ruling the seven Seas with the greatest poker hand ever dealt when it comes to trading and the other thinks we will be sunk into a Hollywood like dystopian future where gangs of violent street thugs will be looting and pillaging, throwing toxic waste into the environment and nobody will have jobs or homes because the EU aren't there to tell them not to / give them. The truth lies somewhere inbetween that jargon but quite where is actually anybodys guess, regardless of what some experts tell us.

It is much like this topic. Chaddy holds the Tories in extremely high regard, blind to the negatives that he brings, but likewise there are more quite extreme Labour voters on here that simply won't have anything else said other than what narrative they believe. When did the world become so polarised? 

Labour are roughly £385bn short on their manifesto pledges through raising taxes by supposedly taxing just the "95%". As I highlighted in another topic that isn't true - from start of next tax year (April) I would be £1,000 a year worse off under a Corbyn govt taking into account only the raise in small business tax. This is without taking into account the taxes that he applies on energy companies, gas in particular, being passed onto consumers, there's a pension tax which impacts 11 million people, the petrol tax which thinktanks would expect 16p a litre added onto fuel prices along with a hike in fuel duty and supposed measures to cut 60% of journeys. This is to name a few policies which would impact me and I'm firmly in that 95%. I can't get to work without driving, I have money going into pension pots that will effectively have a tax grab on them, my energy bills will increase if his policies are enacted. The only tax increase that won't affect me is the inheritance tax but I think that's a farce too - why should families be punished further for a life time of hard work when they have paid into the system already?

Now, to make that est. £385bn shortfall, Corbyn has two options: a) come up with more taxes or b) borrow. I want neither. It's a no-brainer for someone like myself to vote for a party that better suits my interests. The Lib Dems offer a much more sensible spending policy, as do the Greens, but both of them parties have enacted some weird pact like mentality with Labour to not run against them, then they did, now they aren't. So where else does my vote go because if it ain't blue or red it's wasted?

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3 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

 It's a no-brainer for someone like myself to vote for a party that better suits my interests. 

I'm all right jack. 

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Just now, jim mk2 said:

I'm all right jack. 

Come on Jim, when you are a young family looking to make your way in life you look after yourself, Chaddy is doing the same and whilst I find voting for the Tories absolutely repugnant, I do understand why people would do it. 

You own your own house, you have a decent job and lifes good, why vote for change? 

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4 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Not all experts, for the sake of some much-needed neutrality in this debate.

Brexit, like most things in British politics, has become such a polarised subject that it is difficult to find the "middle" anymore. The one side believe we'll be back to ruling the seven Seas with the greatest poker hand ever dealt when it comes to trading and the other thinks we will be sunk into a Hollywood like dystopian future where gangs of violent street thugs will be looting and pillaging, throwing toxic waste into the environment and nobody will have jobs or homes because the EU aren't there to tell them not to / give them. The truth lies somewhere inbetween that jargon but quite where is actually anybodys guess, regardless of what some experts tell us.

It is much like this topic. Chaddy holds the Tories in extremely high regard, blind to the negatives that he brings, but likewise there are more quite extreme Labour voters on here that simply won't have anything else said other than what narrative they believe. When did the world become so polarised? 

Labour are roughly £385bn short on their manifesto pledges through raising taxes by supposedly taxing just the "95%". As I highlighted in another topic that isn't true - from start of next tax year (April) I would be £1,000 a year worse off under a Corbyn govt taking into account only the raise in small business tax. This is without taking into account the taxes that he applies on energy companies, gas in particular, being passed onto consumers, there's a pension tax which impacts 11 million people, the petrol tax which thinktanks would expect 16p a litre added onto fuel prices along with a hike in fuel duty and supposed measures to cut 60% of journeys. This is to name a few policies which would impact me and I'm firmly in that 95%. I can't get to work without driving, I have money going into pension pots that will effectively have a tax grab on them, my energy bills will increase if his policies are enacted. The only tax increase that won't affect me is the inheritance tax but I think that's a farce too - why should families be punished further for a life time of hard work when they have paid into the system already?

Now, to make that est. £385bn shortfall, Corbyn has two options: a) come up with more taxes or b) borrow. I want neither. It's a no-brainer for someone like myself to vote for a party that better suits my interests. The Lib Dems offer a much more sensible spending policy, as do the Greens, but both of them parties have enacted some weird pact like mentality with Labour to not run against them, then they did, now they aren't. So where else does my vote go because if it ain't blue or red it's wasted?

But theres the difference between what Chaddy does and what you are capable of doing. You have articulated your genuine concerns about a Corbyn led government and I share many of them.  I have even more massive concerns about a Tory government as I feel that Corbyn is always going to be a short term leader and I feel that some of the manifesto will soon be seen as being unachievable in the short and medium term and will be cut, but feel that the Tories could do a great deal of damage very quickly if they hung on to power. I dont think well descend into widespread civil unrest but I do think the break up of the union will be hastened if Johnson gets a mandate to take us out of the EU.

There are all kinds of things I dont like about Corbyn, not least that I hold him as responsible as the Tories for Remain losing the referendum. Had he come down firmly on the leave side then the deal could probably have been properly sorted a while ago. And had he come down on the Remain side then the result would have likely been very different. However, I know what a Tory government does and I know I dont like it, not this government under this leadership, at least. I'm not a Labour supporter and never have been, in fact I've been largely non political most of my life,, but I'm prepared to give them a chance this time round

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10 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Now, to make that est. £385bn shortfall, Corbyn has two options: a) come up with more taxes or b) borrow. I want neither. It's a no-brainer for someone like myself to vote for a party that better suits my interests. The Lib Dems offer a much more sensible spending policy, as do the Greens, but both of them parties have enacted some weird pact like mentality with Labour to not run against them, then they did, now they aren't. So where else does my vote go because if it ain't blue or red it's wasted?

Some very good points in there but I feel as though you may have polarised the 95% debate yourself. I earn nowhere near £80,000 but at the moment I am comfortable. However, I can see the way society is going and understand it is going to take some investment to fix this. The IFS have said even the Tory manifesto doesn't have enough money for their pledges so I don't expect society is going to improve any time soon.
I'm voting Labour (and expect some tax increase in one way or another) to reduce crime, have the NHS there if I need it and improve education and just about everything else you see outside your front door.

I imagine Tory supporters don't enjoy the way society is/ is going but I don't see how you can complain if you vote to continue it for the sake of a small (in most cases) amount of extra money in your pocket.

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20 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Not all experts, for the sake of some much-needed neutrality in this debate.

The governments own figures, covering all scenarios say we will be much worse off. 
 

which detailed assessments that cover all the options illustrate how we’ll be better off? I haven’t seen one.

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Just now, Gav said:

Come on Jim, when you are a young family looking to make your way in life you look after yourself, Chaddy is doing the same and whilst I find voting for the Tories absolutely repugnant, I do understand why people would do it. 

You own your own house, you have a decent job and lifes good, why vote for change? 

Some people can't see past the end of their own noses. That post is consistent with others he's posted. There are also some questionable claims on the increases to ulility bills and other costs. 

As a minority govt Labour would be able to do only a fraction of their manifesto. A majority Tory govt would have to spend more than a minority Labour govt if they are to fulfill their election pledges.

Either way, taxes will rise. I've no problem with that, but as you;ve said the country needs radical change. A Tory vote is for more the same. 

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17 minutes ago, RoverthePennines said:

Some very good points in there but I feel as though you may have polarised the 95% debate yourself. I earn nowhere near £80,000 but at the moment I am comfortable. However, I can see the way society is going and understand it is going to take some investment to fix this. The IFS have said even the Tory manifesto doesn't have enough money for their pledges so I don't expect society is going to improve any time soon.
I'm voting Labour (and expect some tax increase in one way or another) to reduce crime, have the NHS there if I need it and improve education and just about everything else you see outside your front door.

I imagine Tory supporters don't enjoy the way society is/ is going but I don't see how you can complain if you vote to continue it for the sake of a small (in most cases) amount of extra money in your pocket.

True. The IFS has come out and said both manifestos are unrealistic, so the real decision lies with which one is going to affect me the most.

As stated previously I was born in Blackburn, although too young to remember any real social problems, but raised in Kingstanding (Birmingham). I went through school under a Labour govt and having been around it I think that whilst crime has become more violent it certainly hasn't increased in amount. Two boys in my secondary school got stabbed, we had metal detectors for 3 months and eventually a "super-head" brought in to calm things down after 9 headteachers in 5 years passed through our school (1 died of a heart attack, stress induced, no lie). So all these glory years of big investment didn't ever creep down to me. My year largely under achieved in GCSEs and a handful are in prison and swathes are dead heads that are heading for the mortuary or prison themselves.

On the contrary, my little sister left school last year, went to the same comp, all under a Tory / Lib Dem / Tory govt, and her school year achieved magnificent things. Two went to Oxford, one went to London School of Economics and most (including my sister) went to Russell Group universities. Now I'm not saying this relatively small comparison can be extended throughout the country but it's just a glimpse into another view - that maybe things aren't always perfect under Lab - certainly not improved - and things aren't always worse under the Tories. For the sake of argument the school I went to services: Park Hall, Walsall (affluent), Kingstanding (council estate), Great Barr (mixture) and Perry Barr (council estates). It's not a school for the rich but a traditional comp that caters to all "social classes". What I will say is the difference was in headteacher and the headteacher, a Dame, was notoriously strict and demanded only the best. Actual discipline, and not money, won the day here.

I don't see crime as a symptom of a Tory govt but more a symptom of social breakdown. Now that could be blamed on a Tory govt, however if we are being realistic crime has always existed, granted with poverty as its main cause. However, again to draw comparison to my younger years, it wasn't even thought about to bring a knife to school - when it happened it sent shockwaves around us all - but we had fights every day, teachers' cars got scratched and rival schools fought rival schools. This was with all the "boom money" of the Lab govt and increased public spending. Nowadays children don't fight with fists but with knives: a social breakdown has occurred where the value of life is nil. I don't blame the Tories but parents, the lack of a moral fabric in society, rise in get rich quick gang lifestyles and most importantly drug policies - which neither Lab or Tory propose to amend!

 

8 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Some people can't see past the end of their own noses. That post is consistent with others he's posted. There are also some questionable claims on the increases to ulility bills and other costs. 

As a minority govt Labour would be able to do only a fraction of their manifesto. A majority Tory govt would have to spend more than a minority Labour govt if they are to fulfill their election pledges.

Either way, taxes will rise. I've no problem with that, but as you;ve said the country needs radical change. A Tory vote is for more the same. 

No. It's got nothing to do with that Jim. Perhaps it is you that can't see past the end of your own nose. You stated in other posts that despite the rise in taxes you will "still be ok". That's good, well done for you, but you've had your life and built up your material wealth. I haven't. I've got children planned, a house to purchase and goals in life that will be impacted by a Corbyn govt. Which especially irks when I don't believe the policies he's enacting will actually make as much of a difference as people are saying.

Edited by Dreams of 1995

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6 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

True. The IFS has come out and said both manifestos are unrealistic, so the real decision lies with which one is going to affect me the most.

 

 

The biggest impact, if the Tories win, will be leaving the EU.  it will mean Johnson won't even have the money to end Austerity.

Corbyn will be spending more money but look at what he's spending it on. You'll benefit from NHS Improvements and cheaper medicines, subsidised bus routes, cheaper rail fares, free tertiary education for your kids, a greener Britain and so on and so forth.

Social breakdown is a result of poverty and inequality by the way. You can't expect kids to behave if they go to school without breakfast.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by 47er

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It's a very strange election for sure. I know Labour voters who 'want Brexit done', and I know Conservative voters (including party members) voting Labour purely in an attempt to mitigate what they perceive as their party hijacked by UKIP/BNP types and drag the party back into the centre to combat a left-wing Labour.

It's all mental.

Personally, I think all I can go off is policy and leader. I think Labour's policy is nearer to what direction the country should go in than the other policies, and I think Corbyn (as an honest idealist- to the point of naivety) is a better bet than Johnson (a selfish liar).

Edited by Mike E

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Just now, Mike E said:

It's a very strange election for sure. I know Labour voters who 'want Brexit done', and I know Conservative voters (including party members) voting Labour purely in an attempt to mitigate what they perceive as their party hijacked by UKIP/BNP types and drag the party back into the centre to combat a left-wing Labour.

It's all mental.

Personally, I think all I can go off is policy and leader. I think Labour's policy is nearer to what direction the country should go in than the other policies, and I think Corbyn (as an honest idealist- to the point of naivety) is a better bet than Johnson (a selfish liar).

I'm certainly not Corbyns biggest fan, he's kept some very dubious company in the past........but the one thing about Corbyn is he doesn't tell lies, compared to Johnson who lies his way through every public appearance he makes.

For that reason alone i'd rule out the Tories, how can you trust a party with a leader thats a proven liar?

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There's a very good article in todays " Guardian " by Peter Oborne, who for people who don't follow politics that closely used to write for " The Daily Torygraph " and " The Daily Mail ". A left wing commentator he certainly isn't. The article is regarding the way the media have rolled over in this election and steadfastly looked the other way when the Tories have cocked up.

He's particularly scornful of the BBC. He draws attention to the fact that " When a dishevelled Johnson made a mess of placing a red wreath at the Cenotaph, ahead of the silence on Remembrance Sunday, BBC Breakfast showed footage of a much smarter Johnson placing a green wreath; footage dating back to 2016 when Johnson was Foreign Secretary. The Corporation insisted the clip was used in error ".

" Then there was the rather more serious case when for it's main news broadcast , the BBC edited a clip to cut out the audience laughter at the Prime Minister during the party leaders question time, after he was asked whether he believed it was important to tell the truth. The edited clip showed only applause. "

He also refers to the case of Ian Austin.  " The BBC ( and other channels ) paid huge attention when the obscure former MP Ian Austin endorsed the Tories. Those channels paid far less attention when Ken Clarke  ( and Michael Heseltine ) , two political giants, suggested they would not vote Tory".

He's not the only one to see something quite sinister in this turn of events. Of course if figuring out how to pay for your next holiday abroad, new car  etc takes precedence it's all water under the bridge.

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces

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38 minutes ago, Gav said:

I'm certainly not Corbyns biggest fan, he's kept some very dubious company in the past........but the one thing about Corbyn is he doesn't tell lies, compared to Johnson who lies his way through every public appearance he makes.

For that reason alone i'd rule out the Tories, how can you trust a party with a leader thats a proven liar?

It isn't just their leader. They lied by rebranding one of their twitter accounts as an independent fact-checking service. They set up a fake Labour manifesto website to deliberately fool people into believing lies. It's literally stuff that could have come straight out of a dystopian novel, or something you'd expect out of North Korea or China. I think it would be very hard for anybody to vote for a party like that in good conscience, but it's obviously up to the individual to decide how dangerous those actions really are. They certainly scare me to say the least. 

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5 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

 

Well, you got to the right conclusion - a good headmaster does make the difference between a good and bad school - but only after a load of nonsense about problems within a failing school being the fault of a Labour govt and a successful school being down to a Tory govt. .

In 1997 Tony Blair before becoming PM went on tour of the country and he was shocked at what he found - out-dated schools with leaking roofs, Dickensian hospitals not fit for purpose, and neglected infrastructure. The country was in a shocking state because in 19 years of mismanagement the Tories had failed to renew and invest. Note the word: invest, not spend.

After 10 years of "austerity" we're at the same stage now. The UK is in dire need of vastly increased public spending, not tinkering at the edges.

Good luck with the new microwave and washing machine. I can tell you now - successful people do well under governments of all colours. 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

I can tell you now - successful people do well under governments of all colours. 

This is the truest sentence I have seen on this thread so far.

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The most disheartening thing is how we've long-bemoaned the lack of trust that we have in politicians, and yet the polls show the very epitome of that kind of politician ahead of the rest of them. If you believe in "getting Brexit done" and you're voting for Johnson, never again should you be taken seriously if you bring up the issue of trust in politicians.

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9 hours ago, gumboots said:

I dont think it can be called bullying when he puts himself in a certain position or makes a statement and then when asked to clarify or explain his logic or even answer a straightforward question, he simply refuses to do so. If you take up a position diametrically opposed to the majority of those posting then you need to be capable of and willing to explain your grounds for that position. Chaddy keeps telling us hell be voting Tory and, whilst the majority of us cant understand why, we respect that decision, but, since we cant understand it, wed like to have it explained. The Im all right Jack attitude that Chaddy displays seems incredible in the extreme to large numbers of us when faced with the evidence that most things have got worse in the last 10 years. The naivety he displays in thinking he has a secure job etc in the current world economic climate and especially with all experts telling us that leaving the EU will have a further negative impact is unbelievable to many and I for one just want him to wake up and smell the coffee before we sleepwalk off a cliff into the nodeal brexit Johnson and his allies so desire. I've no personal animosity towards Chaddy. I just want him to engage in proper discussion instead of saying I've told you already when, the majority of the time, he actually hasn't.

Well its funny that cos I have told you why I voting Tory as I told you on the 25th November. Here a link to the post I did 

https://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php?/forums/topic/31598-brexit/&do=findComment&comment=2008216

Also why do you keep telling me that my job isn't secure and safe? when actually my job is very secure and safe. Plenty of overtime going currently and the company doing well. So please telling me that my job isn't secure when you don't have a clue

Of course I am going to put myself and my family 1st before others. Why would it be any other wise? if you don't fine but don't  even lecturing me

you really respect my decision to vote Tories? I don't think d9

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by chaddyrovers

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