Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Incidentally @tomphil I found myself thinking about left wing Tories and right wing Labour when reading your post. Would you consider Stewart (albeit he's gone indy) and Starmer each of those respectively? I feel like I'd be extremely optimistic for the future of politics if it were Stewart vs Starmer as they both have their 'wings' but seem to temper them with pragmatism.

I feel Starmer COULD (big word) be a rare politician that could actually merge capitalism and socialism successfully. Although he of course leans more left than right. I know a lot of Tory members impressed by him, and I certainly am as a recent Labour voter.

Edited by Mike E

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

No Jim, he's just very unlikeable and I don't need any newspaper to tell me what I think. I like Starmer though.

Bit of a generalization on your part.

What are you looking for in a leader?

In the case of Corbyn it was his policies, not his sparkling persona that most people liked.

Can you explain why you preferred to vote for an arrogant, lazy, complacent, elitist, incompetent, bigoted, cowardly, dishonest, shambling shitbag of a man?

Edited by jim mk2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Incidentally @tomphil I found myself thinking about left wing Tories and right wing Labour when reading your post. Would you consider Stewart (albeit he's gone indy) and Starmer each of those respectively? I feel like I'd be extremely optimistic for the future of politics if it were Stewart vs Starmer as they both have their 'wings' but seem to temper them with pragmatism.

I feel Starmer COULD (big word) be a rare politician that could actually merge capitalism and socialism successfully. Although he of course leans more left than right. I know a lot of Tory members impressed by him, and I certainly am as a recent Labour voter.

It would certainly be radical and refreshing to have two leaders who went back to actually debating things in an effort to get the best situation for the country. Starmer is too sharp for Johnson on that score i think and Boris feels threatened so resorts to bumbling so one scores points whilst the other digs his heels in further.

That fella should have been front of house for Labour a long time ago at least there would have been an identity.

Stewart - i can't say iv'e given it much thought to be honest.

Edited by tomphil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Incidentally @tomphil I found myself thinking about left wing Tories and right wing Labour when reading your post. Would you consider Stewart (albeit he's gone indy) and Starmer each of those respectively? I feel like I'd be extremely optimistic for the future of politics if it were Stewart vs Starmer as they both have their 'wings' but seem to temper them with pragmatism.

I feel Starmer COULD (big word) be a rare politician that could actually merge capitalism and socialism successfully. Although he of course leans more left than right. I know a lot of Tory members impressed by him, and I certainly am as a recent Labour voter.

Stewart was my local MP albeit it briefly as I only moved to area towards the end of his tenure but I was only in the neighbouring constituency previously. I was very impressed with him and the local consensus was that he was a very good MP. 

 

So far I think Starmer could be great. The fact he's had a solid career before becoming an MP is also a massive plus for me. He could win a lot of people back to labour. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

What are you looking for in a leader?

In the case of Corbyn it was his policies, not his sparkling persona that most people liked.

Can you explain why you preferred to vote for an arrogant, lazy, complacent, elitist, incompetent, bigoted, cowardly, dishonest, shambling shitbag of a man?

Brexit, I cannot stand the EU

Edited by Sparks Rover

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Brexit, I cannot stand the EU

The EU is the greatest achievement by humanity since 1946.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't go that far at all, and I voted to stay in. It has a lot of things wrong with it, Nigel Farage being one but I suppose it has broken the mould of massive European wars every 50 years or so. It certainly is no better than the internet, affordable air travel, the discovery of the structure of DNA or the Hubble telescope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

Brexit, I cannot stand the EU

Why? What has it failed to do for you? Genuine question, not to wind you up. You see, I've lived my entire adult life as a member of the EU, and whilst the top heavy bureaucracy annoyed me and I acknowledge it was in need of reform, I never imagined a time when we wouldn't be part of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It could never be reformed. Too much power in a self serving unelected elite (their nomenclature) who would only land grab more power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And our current government? They're elected but fail on just about every other level. But I dont want to get into an argument

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, iacok said:

It could never be reformed. Too much power in a self serving unelected elite (their nomenclature) who would only land grab more power.

We have an unelected "elite" running the show in No 10. But he's not foreign of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

Brexit, I cannot stand the EU

Why? 

You sound as though it has affected you personally.

I'd love to know.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, gumboots said:

Why? What has it failed to do for you? Genuine question, not to wind you up. You see, I've lived my entire adult life as a member of the EU, and whilst the top heavy bureaucracy annoyed me and I acknowledge it was in need of reform, I never imagined a time when we wouldn't be part of it.

For me, a number of things turn me off.

You said it - just so much unnecessary bureaucrats, too much unnecessary travel, wages, etc money for nothing.

I believe the EURO was wrong for Greece, italy, Spain etc, I think it put the cost of living up virtually overnight, crashed their economies when they weren't strong in 2008,  and then they had years of austerity imposed on them, without option. And pro-EU poster on here are generally the ones opposed to the austerity here.

There's no real accountability,  you might say the European elections but I'd disagree. They haven't had their accounts signed off, why not?

They always get votes turned around that they don't agree with....there are loads of examples.. that just seriously annoys me.

I could go on, the idea that their environmental credentials are miles better than ours....I've seen some awful waste management jobs across europe that would make your hair curl, no regulations and safety....Bulgaria, Greece etc really bad.

We are just better off out of there. I love Europe though, always have..

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

For me, a number of things turn me off.

You said it - just so much unnecessary bureaucrats, too much unnecessary travel, wages, etc money for nothing.

I believe the EURO was wrong for Greece, italy, Spain etc, I think it put the cost of living up virtually overnight, crashed their economies when they weren't strong in 2008,  and then they had years of austerity imposed on them, without option. And pro-EU poster on here are generally the ones opposed to the austerity here.

There's no real accountability,  you might say the European elections but I'd disagree. They haven't had their accounts signed off, why not?

They always get votes turned around that they don't agree with....there are loads of examples.. that just seriously annoys me.

I could go on, the idea that their environmental credentials are miles better than ours....I've seen some awful waste management jobs across europe that would make your hair curl, no regulations and safety....Bulgaria, Greece etc really bad.

We are just better off out of there. I love Europe though, always have..

 

 

And when you voted, did you envisage any sort of relationship with EU after? I.e. was no deal on the cards from the off or something that's come about later? 

 

(Thought I'd get in on the genuine question cos it's rare I come across a Brexit debate that hasnt descended into "REMOANER" "RACIST") 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

And when you voted, did you envisage any sort of relationship with EU after? I.e. was no deal on the cards from the off or something that's come about later? 

 

(Thought I'd get in on the genuine question cos it's rare I come across a Brexit debate that hasnt descended into "REMOANER" "RACIST") 

Of course. They are our neighbours, and we have a trade defecit with them, so we need to keep dealing with them for certain commodities.  However for the reasons I've highlighted,  it should be apart from them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

And when you voted, did you envisage any sort of relationship with EU after? I.e. was no deal on the cards from the off or something that's come about later? 

 

(Thought I'd get in on the genuine question cos it's rare I come across a Brexit debate that hasnt descended into "REMOANER" "RACIST") 

Absolutely spot on Dom.

We've got the same tired old labels on this very thread, in fact on this very page which proves your point.

The way I see things is once the referendum result was declared and the Tories won a massive majority at the election, brexit stopped being an issue for me.

It doesn't matter how much bluster people throw at the brexit debate now its irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, because the country have given the Tories a mandate to do whatever they please and thats exactly what they'll do.

On a personal note I hope we tell the EU to sod off, especially after they threw the Italians to the wolves over Covid19, who the hell wants to deal with those that are willing to contribute to the deaths of thousands of its own members? They publicly apologised for the lack of support, its criminal.

I take things like that personally, call me old fashioned......

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still waiting to hear how we’ll benefit practically from leaving guys?

still boils down to simple soundbites to me.

how will leaving the EU benefit us? 
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

For me, a number of things turn me off.

You said it - just so much unnecessary bureaucrats, too much unnecessary travel, wages, etc money for nothing.

I believe the EURO was wrong for Greece, italy, Spain etc, I think it put the cost of living up virtually overnight, crashed their economies when they weren't strong in 2008,  and then they had years of austerity imposed on them, without option. And pro-EU poster on here are generally the ones opposed to the austerity here.

There's no real accountability,  you might say the European elections but I'd disagree. They haven't had their accounts signed off, why not?

They always get votes turned around that they don't agree with....there are loads of examples.. that just seriously annoys me.

I could go on, the idea that their environmental credentials are miles better than ours....I've seen some awful waste management jobs across europe that would make your hair curl, no regulations and safety....Bulgaria, Greece etc really bad.

We are just better off out of there. I love Europe though, always have..

 

 

You get over shit don’t you though usually ... the wiemar republic etc is what people go to , 

In my humble opinion In the last 8/10 years we have been rather envious of Spain Germany Italy etc 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, den said:

Still waiting to hear how we’ll benefit practically from leaving guys?

still boils down to simple soundbites to me.

how will leaving the EU benefit us? 
 

 

As ever with hindsight it all just seemed like something to rage about , to argue the toss over , for some to justify being racist 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Gav said:

Absolutely spot on Dom.

We've got the same tired old labels on this very thread, in fact on this very page which proves your point.

The way I see things is once the referendum result was declared and the Tories won a massive majority at the election, brexit stopped being an issue for me.

It doesn't matter how much bluster people throw at the brexit debate now its irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, because the country have given the Tories a mandate to do whatever they please and thats exactly what they'll do.

On a personal note I hope we tell the EU to sod off, especially after they threw the Italians to the wolves over Covid19, who the hell wants to deal with those that are willing to contribute to the deaths of thousands of its own members? They publicly apologised for the lack of support, its criminal.

I take things like that personally, call me old fashioned......

 

 

I do think one of the main issues is that the referendum itself was badly managed. The question itself was crap. I was very on the fence at the time about which way to vote  my issue was we didnt know what either scenario looked like long term. I was on the fence but even before the vote I thought that we should have another vote once we know what leaving looks like. I think what has stirred up a lot of the anger is one side has rightly asked for a second vote which the other side has taken to mean their vote doesnt count and their opinion is worthless and the other side has in a lot of spaces, not so much on here, been very quick to gloat about it, calling people salty libtard remoaner sore losers. Which has then been met with allegations of Racism. 

 

My gut feel at the time was that we potentially could flourish and take advantage of opportunities outside of the EU but I lacked faith in the politicians and the quality of the civil service to be able to pull it off so best not to rock the boat. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, den said:

Still waiting to hear how we’ll benefit practically from leaving guys?

still boils down to simple soundbites to me.

how will leaving the EU benefit us? 
 

 

Does it really matter now den, we are leaving and thats the debate over.

But to answer your question:

We will save around £10bn a year on average, this could build 160,000 social houses which are so badly needed.

Edited by Gav

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ursula Von der Leyen apologised to Italy for a late response.

There was no throwing Italy to the wolves.

Unlike the North West being abandoned by the Tories.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Gav said:

We will save around £10bn a year on average, this could build 160,000 social houses which are so badly needed.

And therein lies the issue Gav. We will stop payments into the EU but we will lose the benefits of lost economic growth which will be a much greater figure. How much that figure will be is anyone's guess and it will very much rely on what deal if any is reached but it will be down according to just about every economist (except the nutter Patrick Minford).

Now in fairness many Brexiteers say that a small financial loss will be worth it to be out of the EU and that seems an honourable position to take even though I profoundly disagree with it. But I believe that whatever deal we end up with the financial impact will be greater than small and will be huge if we end up with no deal. And the brunt of the economic pain will fall on the poorer parts of the UK, many of which voted strongly for Brexit, having been sold a story which can't be delivered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, philipl said:

Ursula Von der Leyen apologised to Italy for a late response.

There was no throwing Italy to the wolves.

Bullshit (To quote you yourself on an earlier thread)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/16/eu-offers-heartfelt-apology-italy-coronavirus-response-herd-immunity

The EU's own block emergency mechanism for helping countries in a crisis wasn't answered, they basically left the Italian people to die, threw them to the wolves.

France and Germany refused to send medical equipment, the EU are supposed to support countries like Italy in such circumstances and they did nothing, not a thing.

The list goes on and The Guardian article is watered down for obvious reasons.

You've been telling everyone the UK locked down to late, you say that cost lives, yet the EU ignored Italy cries for help for weeks but that doesn't count?

Edited by Gav

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, only2garners said:

And therein lies the issue Gav. We will stop payments into the EU but we will lose the benefits of lost economic growth which will be a much greater figure. How much that figure will be is anyone's guess 

So, we know how much will be saved in contributions, 10bn. But the counter argument,   is anyone's guess? That 10bn would have gone up loads aswell after this virus. Thank god we left when we did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.