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2 hours ago, philipl said:

This summary of autopsies from Hamburg shows:

1) Covid 19 attacks the body everywhere

2) It might be an accelerator (of death) in even the mildest of cases

3) We still know far too little about it.

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1258171469072236544/photo/4

Yet you still feel qualified to state we " have the worst record in Europe" which is it it? 

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11 minutes ago, Bazzanotsogreat said:

Yet you still feel qualified to state we " have the worst record in Europe" which is it it? 

Eh? When he says  "We still know far too little about it" I'm assuming Philip is reffing to the make-up of the virus---medical issues like is there immunity once you've had it, is it mutating, how is it affected by temperature and the like.

Its possible not to know enough about those areas but still be able to say" We have the worst record in Europe"

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8 minutes ago, 47er said:

Eh? When he says  "We still know far too little about it" I'm assuming Philip is reffing to the make-up of the virus---medical issues like is there immunity once you've had it, is it mutating, how is it affected by temperature and the like.

Its possible not to know enough about those areas but still be able to say" We have the worst record in Europe"

You just answered yourself, if we don't understand the virus. What it is, how it mutates and ultimately how it kills. How can we accurately record deaths and therefore compare? 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bazzanotsogreat said:

Yet you still feel qualified to state we " have the worst record in Europe" which is it it? 

We know that Italy and Spain only count Hospital where we use all settings. Plus our the experts have repeatedly said it is far too early to judge the numbers. No one has proved why Giles has experience in Data recording or analysing statistics over Our Chief Medical Officer Chris Whitty who is an expert in his field. 

Edited by chaddyrovers

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12 minutes ago, Bazzanotsogreat said:

You just answered yourself, if we don't understand the virus. What it is, how it mutates and ultimately how it kills. How can we accurately record deaths and therefore compare? 

He has an axe to grind for some reason . 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Bazzanotsogreat said:

You just answered yourself, if we don't understand the virus. What it is, how it mutates and ultimately how it kills. How can we accurately record deaths and therefore compare? 

We can accurately record deaths on the same basis as everyone else----regardless of the "qualities" of the disease.

We don't know the same things as everyone else doesn't know. Therefore  all countries are equal.

You are being obtuse. On what basis do we  not have the worst record in Europe then?

Edited by 47er

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6 minutes ago, Inglorious basturk said:

He has an axe to grind for some reason . 

Is that me who's meant to have an axe to grind? How do you justify that remark? (on second thoughts--don't bother).

 I simply post my opinions on here like everyone else and try to make sense of some of the rest.

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9 minutes ago, 47er said:

Eh? When he says  "We still know far too little about it" I'm assuming Philip is reffing to the make-up of the virus---medical issues like is there immunity once you've had it, is it mutating, how is it affected by temperature and the like.

Its possible not to know enough about those areas but still be able to say" We have the worst record in Europe"

But some of the unknowns surely impact how bad our record is? 

E.g. Level of immunity is unknown as is the level if asymptomatic spread. So two purely hypothetical situations 

1 - we've had massive asymptomatic spread due to not going into full lockdown and 40m now have full immunity. Spain and italy had mild spread a low levels of immunity

2 - the opposite of above very people have had it and there is no immunity. 

A higher death count in the second scenario is surely much worse than the first at this stage because the other countries would be at greater risk of another outbreak.

Yes we can count death rates reasonably easily but surely the interpretation and comparisons is meaningless with some of the unknowns that are still out there? 

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13 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

But some of the unknowns surely impact how bad our record is? 

E.g. Level of immunity is unknown as is the level if asymptomatic spread. So two purely hypothetical situations 

1 - we've had massive asymptomatic spread due to not going into full lockdown and 40m now have full immunity. Spain and italy had mild spread a low levels of immunity

2 - the opposite of above very people have had it and there is no immunity. 

A higher death count in the second scenario is surely much worse than the first at this stage because the other countries would be at greater risk of another outbreak.

Yes we can count death rates reasonably easily but surely the interpretation and comparisons is meaningless with some of the unknowns that are still out there? 

I'm with all those who believe that what motivates this line of argument is to put off the the reckoning for as long as possible.

We have a history of enquiries that report after 50 years when everybody's dead.

 

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6 hours ago, philipl said:

This sorts out the argument about international comparisons

And this..

 

Good post Philip, and totally lost on the below

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

. Plus our the experts it is far too early to judge the numbers. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Targets have and always be an issue in politics. 200k is literally just another benchmark figure, I can’t imagine there’s much more thought gone into than that. Now there will be more pressure on the testers and organisers to reach that figure regardless. 
 

They will make out like they reached that target and the opposition will either say they didn’t or claim they’d have reached 250k. Rinse, repeat. Welcome to target driven politics. It’s happened for too long. Those similar targets are also what’s at fault for privatising some aspects of the health service, because the only way to reach them is by paying private companies to perform. Blair and Brown accelerated this ten fold, and now we are seeing most of the testing and tracing outsourced for this pandemic. It’s nonsense. 

Nobody made Hancock or Johnson  set those targets.  They did it of their own free will.  For what it's worth I think the whole issue of testing is a shambles.  How effective are they for a start ? Are they getting targeted at the right people ? What is the point of " home testing " when the chances are you won't have performed the swabbing correctly ?

On a more personal note my wife's best friend's daughter died of a Covid induced heart attack last night. She'd been having gastric problems for a while, hardly eating etc. She'd sought medical help last week and had been given the test in A and E which was negative. She came home again but ended up back in hospital earlier this week when she was tested a second time- this time it was positive for Covid.  All very sudden.

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, philipl said:

D'uh

That is an analysis of autopsies on CV corpses in Hamburg. 

A key point they make is that we still know very little about this virus yet most countries are carrying out hardly any autopsies which would reveal how it kills.

That report from Hamburg shows a lot of evidence of blood clotting and liver damage as well as lung damage.

Germany with a far larger population than the UK was hit earlier and has had far fewer deaths than the UK.

Yes the multiple sources I am reading are absolutely qualified to condemn the UK as having the worst record in Europe.

Interestingly, just seen Larry Summers pointing out that given the immensity of the GDP hit, the lack of resources allocated to testing in all OECD economies but especially the US and UK is utterly inexplicable.

And yet, despite all the flack they're receiving, USA has conducted more tests than Britain!

 24000+ per 1 million of population compared to 21000+ for UK---as of May 2nd.

Source-----https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/covid-19-testing/

Edited by 47er

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5 minutes ago, 47er said:

I'm with all those who believe that what motivates this line of argument is to put off the the reckoning for as long as possible.

We have a history of enquiries that report after 50 years when everybody's dead.

 

I'm all for Boris getting what's coming to him if he deserves it, I'm certainly not pro boris or pro this Tory government in the slightest. I just think it's not possible to say at this stage. 

A public inquiry will sadly be a waste of time as the rest of them are and that's something that wont change. However the facts will come out in some form, probably through investigative journalism and we will all be able to form a view of who did and didnt screw up and which countries did better, we the public dont need an inquiry for that. All I'm advocating is waiting a matter of weeks / months for comparisons to be a bit more meaningful. 

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50 minutes ago, 47er said:

Is that me who's meant to have an axe to grind? How do you justify that remark? (on second thoughts--don't bother).

 I simply post my opinions on here like everyone else and try to make sense of some of the rest.

No it wasn’t you at all 

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18 minutes ago, 47er said:

I'm with all those who believe that what motivates this line of argument is to put off the the reckoning for as long as possible.

We have a history of enquiries that report after 50 years when everybody's dead.

 

Or even later than that. I watched a programme about the " Profumo " affair in 1962-3 and they are still holding back certain documents nearly 60  years later.

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10 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

Care home worker MP sacked because she spoke out about lack of PPE.

Employees losing their jobs because they highlight potentially dangerous working conditions should not be allowed to happen in a supposedly progressive democracy. 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/labour-mp-nadia-whittome-sacked-21985519?fbclid=IwAR1CaJVIx5FyNWuS9oa-NVWgK7YHV01tIa20a85J_Re4jFYUXvDpKPFgMCE

Another for Starmer's to-do list when he gets in No 10. Repeal all the Tory anti-workers employment legislation

It told me all I needed to know about Tony Blair when he didn't do exactly that. 

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Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Or even later than that. I watched a programme about the " Profumo " affair in 1962-3 and they are still holding back certain documents nearly 60  years later.

Strange you should say that. I just finished the Philip Knightly/Caroline Kennedy book last week! Did you know that even the transcript of the trial have been withheld?!!!

Yet it was widely reported at the time and any citizen who got in would have heard it all. Lord Dennings report on the affair has never been released.

 

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Christ there's so many ridiculous articles out there around getting to Sunday then being told we can pretty much do what we want!

Why are people writing this crap and giving people false hope?  If people read the Sun they still think they'll be having a summer holiday in Benidorm this year 🤣  Stories about when football is resuming etc from so called 'sources'.

I can honestly see some people doing as they please pretty much this weekend with it being a sunny bank holiday, judgement clouded by the fact they think it'll all be ok by Monday and a few more days won't make much difference.

I'm actually in favour of TIGHTENING restrictions rather than easing them to be quite honest.

The only thing I would possibly change is allow small family gatherings if nobody has shown symptoms.  Possibly a bit selfish of me because I miss my family a lot, my parents are pretty much housebound at present and apart from exercise the only person from my house going anywhere is me once a week to do the shopping.  People would take the p*ss though even if they did that, I've realised how much I dislike a lot of people lately.

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1 minute ago, Bazzanotsogreat said:

I'd suggest Duh is someone who self grandioses themselves as a high flying business mogul, who has best mates in the EU commission, knows the ins and out of most world governments. Yet posts endless waffle, drivel and spin on a championship football teams unofficial message board. 

You realy are a 21st century Walter mitty. I see straight through you. You are no more qualified than the rest of us on here and your opinion is indeed not fact. It is again an opinion that is hidden amongst pages of waffle and spin

 

Imagine lauding it up here about that sort of stuff . It’s hilarious . Definitely an axe to grind and never in London despite his twitter feed 

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15 minutes ago, 47er said:

Attacking the messenger to discredit the message. 

He does have a point though....

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Are people who want to wait, hoping that the 42000 excess deaths up until 20th April didn’t actually die?

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Just now, den said:

Are people who want to wait, hoping that the 42000 excess deaths up until 20th April didn’t actually die?

Of course we hoped they didn’t die. It’s been a tragedy. You seem to be taking solace in the figure though. You’ve been going around like a pig in shit on this board slamming that figure in almost every post you make.

I’m literally bored of explaining now why I would like to give it a couple of months before rushing into a huge judgement on the government. If you simply aren’t prepared to wait that long for some of our opinions then that’s fine but please do shut up about it now. You are as boring as Chaddy is for arguing against it. 

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