Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Nice to see we have an open and trannsparent Govenment when it comes to advice on Covid-19

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/08/revealed-uk-scientists-fury-over-attempt-to-censor-covid-19-advice

 

Government scientific advisers are furious at what they see as an attempt to censor their advice on government proposals during the Covid-19 lockdown by heavily redacting an official report before it was released to the public, the Guardian can reveal.

The report was one of a series of documents published by the Scientific Advisory Group on Emergencies (Sage) this week to mollify growing criticism about the lack of transparency over the advice given to ministers responding to the coronavirus.

However, large blocks of text in the report, produced by SPI-B, the Sage subcommittee providing advice from behavioural scientists on how the public might respond to lockdown measures, were entirely blanked out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Mike E said:

And yet back in February and early March, we were 2nd best on the Global Health Security Index:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/prepared-britain-coronavirus-pandemic-sophisticated-analysis/

For 2nd best, we've badly failed, and according to the Government's own targets we've also badly failed. That's assuming there's only one wave of this 😕

I think it's time for logic and reason to give up. I'll break it down for you... 

New Zealand large remote island population 4.8 million. Lots of natural resources, houses and commuties more less densely populated

UK 20% smaller population 66 million. 

I realy do despair as to why this dosent compute

Edited by Bazzanotsogreat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Horse manure. The lack of criticism seems very political.

Also this is another plain evasion of your poor logic of championing most of what Vallance says but not the 20k figure. You've yet to give a good reason why this inconsistency in your opinion exists. 

Sadly your wrong. I've took politics out of it. 

Vallance mention 20k figure as good outcome during select committee meeting. 

Edited by chaddyrovers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gav said:

When will footballers like Kyle Walker realise that the restrictions are in place for a reason, to nick one off Jim - He's as thick as mince:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52587293

He doesn't know if he's carrying the virus, meeting family members/elderly parents could potentially kill them, you thick swine.

Playing the victim and the mental health-card. Its quite simple really, stop breaking lockdown rules and you will not get 'harassed'. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RoverDom said:

Bang on. 

Some people will want an inquiry that concludes e.g. PPE was inadequate, sack hancock, bash the tories, job done. What I'm more interested in is the changes to infrastructure that means we can quickly ramp up procurement and distribution of PPE in the event of another pandemic. 

 This is a one in 100 year year event - as with the Spanish flu the next one will likely be completely different.

This government has made a huge mess of it - of course heads should roll

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Gav said:

The party of working people is now the Conservative Party Jim and has been for many many years now, killing off tens of thousands of them simply makes no sense at all, they're Tory voters.

Sadly the days of the Labour party supporting the working man/woman have long gone in many peoples eyes.

Age is the biggest dividing line in British politics - not social class

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Sadly your wrong. I've took politics out of it. You havent. Dont like my opinion why keep asking me then. 

Vallance mention 20k figure as good outcome during select committee meeting. 

 Not true, because you swiftly counter any criticism of the government

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Inglorious basturk said:

I find nz a ludicrous comparison to anything . Having lived there the jokes in flight of the conchords so close to the truth . Eg toothbrush fence 

 The point is not New Zealand's size or population compared to the UK, but the determination of its prime minister to put the health of its citizens first.

Our PM saw the British people as expendable. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Sadly your wrong. I've took politics out of it. 

You can say it till you are blue in the face but the evidence says otherwise. One example.of this being your recent response to criticism of the government being if they had done nothing it would have been even worse, which as I pointed out before, is a straw man argument. 

15 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Vallance mention 20k figure as good outcome during select committee meeting. 

So are you now saying it is a good figure/target? The fact he mentioned it in a committee meeting suggests that's the case. 

You still haven't given a reason why you take most of what he says as brilliant but not the thing that makes the government look bad. (Which incidentally also suggests that you haven't depoliticised your posts...) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Bazzanotsogreat said:

I think it's time for logic and reason to give up. I'll break it down for you... 

New Zealand large remote island population 4.8 million. Lots of natural resources, houses and commuties more less densely populated

UK 20% smaller population 66 million. 

I realy do despair as to why this dosent compute

It computes perfectly well, I understand your exact point.

And yet accounting for all that, as the GHSI did if you'll read their report, we should have been the second best placed country to deal with a pandemic.

Or are you suggesting you're capable of a logic and reasoning that those experts tasked with compiling and reviewing the GHSI are not?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RoverDom said:

Causes of failures are absolutely what we should be looking for but it's what you do with that information that matters. I would prefer for systems and processes to be put in place to stop it happening again, whereas I think some people would like Bojo in the stocks for each and every mistake made. 

 

I'd like both outcomes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

 The point is not New Zealand's size or population compared to the UK, but the determination of its prime minister to put the health of its citizens first.

Our PM saw the British people as expendable. 

I despise boris and his shower of shit but we could never have applied nz policy . It’s basically a village. trust me I was there 3 years . 
 

I don’t  think there are many comparisons to be made with anyone but I do wish we had taken the German approach to death recording and testing as now we look like scandal merchants and you can’t go backwards 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, gumboots said:

I'd like both outcomes. 

I’m quite a placid guy but I’d not get bored of punching Alexander .... sorry I mean boris 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

You can say it till you are blue in the face but the evidence says otherwise. One example.of this being your recent response to criticism of the government being if they had done nothing it would have been even worse, which as I pointed out before, is a straw man argument. 

So are you now saying it is a good figure/target? The fact he mentioned it in a committee meeting suggests that's the case. 

You still haven't given a reason why you take most of what he says as brilliant but not the thing that makes the government look bad. (Which incidentally also suggests that you haven't depoliticised your posts...) 

Well if you actually look into what Vallance said regarding the 20k being a good outcome. He said 20,000 would be a good outcome. 

I listened to the Experts like Vallance, Whitty and Van Tam. Why would I not? They are at the top of the profession. 

Thing that makes the government look bad? Which is? And you never mention it. 

Yet again I have criticise the government over a number of things wrong as I posted to you in a reply which I think was Tuesday or Wednesday night. But the government has done so good things also. But yes they could have done better in some areas. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Mike E said:

It computes perfectly well, I understand your exact point.

And yet accounting for all that, as the GHSI did if you'll read their report, we should have been the second best placed country to deal with a pandemic.

Or are you suggesting you're capable of a logic and reasoning that those experts tasked with compiling and reviewing the GHSI are not?

Yes I've read it others similar. What the scope of such studies are limited too are clinical. They dont look at the physical characteristics of each nation whether that socio economic, demographic or population mapping.

There was good reason why Britain was predicted to have a large death toll. Well before the government did or didn't put certain plans in place. Research done before the first recorded death suggested a high death. Researches would of looked at the whole picture including public health (which is woeful) the amount of people which of have chronic illness ( which is significantly higher than most if Europe) and they would of looked at population density

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Well if you actually look into what Vallance said regarding the 20k being a good outcome. He said 20,000 would be a good outcome. 

You are going to have to explain to me why this figure should be discounted. All i'm getting from this is he said it would be a good outcome, and since we are double that then surely that is a bad outcome. I'm not sure how your reply strengthens the.argument for the figure being discounted or that the government isn't doing badly. 

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I listened to the Experts like Vallance, Whitty and Van Tam. Why would I not? They are at the top of the profession. 

Fine and I am fine on that, yet you say we should ignore Vallance on this. As I keep saying this is contradictory. 

You have said: 

1) Listen to Vallance and co

2) But don't listen to him when he moots a 20k death target figure. 

Can you see how this comes across as contradictory? 

 

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Thing that makes the government look bad? Which is? And you never mention it. 

Oh I have. Check my first post of the day. Long list there of muck ups by the govt. 

But to summarise, no PPE early on, Turkey PPE disaster, poor levels.of testing, stupid target for tests only got through manipulation and then missed regularly since, the care home crisis, the belated lockdown weeks after it should have been, stupid comments re lockdown lifted on Mondays There's a bit much to explain away. Not expecting a perfect response but there's too much there to explain away as a good response. 

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Yet again I have criticise the government over a number of things wrong as I posted to you in a reply which I think was Tuesday or Wednesday night. But the government has done so good things also. But yes they could have done better in some areas. 

I think it's comments like "if they had done nothing it would be worse" that do you no favours. As obviously doing nothing is worse, and they would be criminally negligent if they did do nothing, so it's not anything to laud them with that they actually acted. Such silly defence of the govt makes you appear unbalanced in your views. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

You are going to have to explain to me why this figure should be discounted. All i'm getting from this is he said it would be a good outcome, and since we are double that then surely that is a bad outcome. I'm not sure how your reply strengthens the.argument for the figure being discounted or that the government isn't doing badly.

We don't have a final outcome yet so I rather we waited before we discuss whether it was bad outcome or not. But you got to look at all factors which has been discuss on by some posters but you have overlook in posting 'surely this is a bad outcome"

Look at @Bazzanotsogreat posts over the past few weeks and even above when he posted this 

"There was good reason why Britain was predicted to have a large death toll. Well before the government did or didn't put certain plans in place. Research done before the first recorded death suggested a high death. Researches would of looked at the whole picture including public health (which is woeful) the amount of people which of have chronic illness ( which is significantly higher than most if Europe) and they would of looked at population density" 

Plus he has been post about this for weeks. From reading his posts has even got me motivate to lose weight and be alot more healthy from now on. 

 

4 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Fine and I am fine on that, yet you say we should ignore Vallance on this. As I keep saying this is contradictory. 

You have said: 

1) Listen to Vallance and co

2) But don't listen to him when he moots a 20k death target figure. 

Can you see how this comes across as contradictory? 

I didn't say ignore Vallance but I wish he hadn't put a figure on a good outcome as people will criticise him for doing so during his appear infront the select committee. 

also it wasn't a death target figure it was good outcome comment from Vallance. 

5 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Oh I have. Check my first post of the day. Long list there of muck ups by the govt. 

But to summarise, no PPE early on, Turkey PPE disaster, poor levels.of testing, stupid target for tests only got through manipulation and then missed regularly since, the care home crisis, the belated lockdown weeks after it should have been, stupid comments re lockdown lifted on Mondays There's a bit much to explain away. Not expecting a perfect response but there's too much there to explain away as a good response. 

I disagree that Hancock's test target was wrong cos the UK has ramped up the test capacity to over 100k per day. But people need to go and yes we do need more test centre.

I never thought the lockdown was going to be lifted on Monday but small changes will happen and mostly for businesses. 

We did have PPE for a Flu pandemic as George Osborne said on Question time a week on Thursday ago as that was the biggest threat to the UK. Yes we did have PPE but not enough to meet ongoing demand to a world wide shortage in this areas. Do you support my view that we should start making our PPE for NHS and Social Care in this country and store it in a secure warehouse on an Army base? do you support this?  

on the Turkey PPE disaster, you cannot blame the buyer when the Supplier hasn't deliver the right quality of kit. I know this Since I work this warehouse sector and sometimes the supplier doesn't deliver the right quality and the stuff get returned. 

But there is a number of good things like making sure we have the NHS bed capacity and our NHS didn't get overwhelmed and we didn't run out of Critical Care Beds. Also the Furlough system which has save people jobs and help businesses keep staff on their books. Also the Businesses loans and grants which has save small and medium businesses during this crisis. 

 

5 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

I think it's comments like "if they had done nothing it would be worse" that do you no favours. As obviously doing nothing is worse, and they would be criminally negligent if they did do nothing, so it's not anything to laud them with that they actually acted. Such silly defence of the govt makes you appear unbalanced in your views.

some people have argued this lockdown was wrong like Sweden's top coronavirus Doctor saying the UK has gone too far https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11330343/swedens-top-coronavirus-doc-britains-lockdown-too-far/

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not if hes trying to lose weight!😀

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

97,029 number of test was carried out yesterday

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

97,029 number of test was carried out yesterday

Irrelevant 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

We don't have a final outcome yet so I rather we waited before we discuss whether it was bad outcome or not. But you got to look at all factors which has been discuss on by some posters but you have overlook in posting 'surely this is a bad outcome"

1 As I have said many times before. You don't need to always wait to the end to draw conclusions e.g. Coyle's reign. 

2 So your and others predictions/forecasts  on why it would be greater are ok but Vallance's target of 20k based on predictions are wrong? Double standards. 

53 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Look at @Bazzanotsogreat posts over the past few weeks and even above when he posted this 

"There was good reason why Britain was predicted to have a large death toll. Well before the government did or didn't put certain plans in place. Research done before the first recorded death suggested a high death. Researches would of looked at the whole picture including public health (which is woeful) the amount of people which of have chronic illness ( which is significantly higher than most if Europe) and they would of looked at population density" 

Plus he has been post about this for weeks. From reading his posts has even got me motivate to lose weight and be alot more healthy from now on. 

I've read a number of articles saying why we shouldn't have a higher death rate then Italy - less smokers, less generations living together etc. I get some comparisons like NZ are false and there are a lot of factors at play but let's not pretend that Britain was uniquely going to suffer or that it absolves the government of blame. 

 

53 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I didn't say ignore Vallance but I wish he hadn't put a figure on a good outcome as people will criticise him for doing so during his appear infront the select committee

But he did and this seems to be a target. One we have missed. No doubt you wish he hadn't set it but if you respect him as an expert you have to respect the validity of his target. 

53 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

also it wasn't a death target figure it was good outcome comment from Vallance. 

Mate that's poor. That's word play. The two are synonymous. A good outcome and a target are if not the same, very similar. 

53 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I disagree that Hancock's test target was wrong cos the UK has ramped up the test capacity to over 100k per day. But people need to go and yes we do need more test centre.

Now here we go with govt bias again. They haven't met the target - they needed to count ones mailed out but not back - and have missed it a number of days running. Yet you blindly quote that we are doing 100k tests a day. 

Rereading your comments you throw in the word capacity but this is still sneaky as Hancock didn't say test capacity but tests done. Can you see why you may come across as bias? 

53 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I never thought the lockdown was going to be lifted on Monday but small changes will happen and mostly for businesses. 

And yet we had headlines in papers and Boris's comments which were really unhelpful. Another poor do from the government. At best mixed messages from the government. 

53 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

We did have PPE for a Flu pandemic as George Osborne said on Question time a week on Thursday ago as that was the biggest threat to the UK. Yes we did have PPE but not enough to meet ongoing demand to a world wide shortage in this areas. Do you support my view that we should start making our PPE for NHS and Social Care in this country and store it in a secure warehouse on an Army base? do you support this?

A flu pandemic is different to a covid 19 pandemic. I could be wrong but for flu don't we have a vaccine making it less deadly? Regardless they had a couple of months heads up, and also there are a range of different  pandemics so putting it all on flu PPE is a little convenient and doesn't wash. 

I think we need to get more PPE whatever it takes. Within a week NHS workers I knew said it's crap for them but worse for carers so not sure how the govt took so long to recognise this. 

53 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

on the Turkey PPE disaster, you cannot blame the buyer when the Supplier hasn't deliver the right quality of kit. I know this Since I work this warehouse sector and sometimes the supplier doesn't deliver the right quality and the stuff get returned. 

Also there is a responsibility on the buyer to request and check that the supplier has the right product - that's basic procurement too. 

53 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

But there is a number of good things like making sure we have the NHS bed capacity and our NHS didn't get overwhelmed and we didn't run out of Critical Care Beds. Also the Furlough system which has save people jobs and help businesses keep staff on their books. Also the Businesses loans and grants which has save small and medium businesses during this crisis. 

Some good stuff in there too. No doubt about it. It's been a mixed response. My concern is more the greater number of negatives then positives. 

53 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

some people have argued this lockdown was wrong like Sweden's top coronavirus Doctor saying the UK has gone too far https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11330343/swedens-top-coronavirus-doc-britains-lockdown-too-far/

 

Do you believe this guy? Seems to.contradict your experts and most of the experts i rate too. Another poor argument for saying lockdown came too early./wasn't soon enough. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a correct focus on the death statistics and on Government missing its testing targets as Chaddy has reminded us they have been missed yet again.

I guess that we would all recognise that a human being is a human being whether you find them in the UK, USA, Germany, Italy, Malta, China, Australia or New Zealand. "Do I not bleed?" as Shakespeare wrote.

Some countries have been better at preserving life than others is probably another non-controversial statement.

I looked at the British stats just now and one ratio really scared me.

1.6m tests and over 200K cases. 

Or 12% of tests are positive. That means testing in the community is at a very very early stage. The majority of testing is still on patients to be at 12% if you remember that each positive case gets tested four times on average.

In countries which have the virus under control, the proportion of positive cases drops to under 2% of tests done.  

At 200,000 tests per day, the UK is probably six weeks away from any lockdown easing is safe on medical statistical grounds. In short any relaxation now is a political gamble.

UK not the only country taking such a gamble and the US is a suicide note, not even a gamble. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In other news here’s a picture of my local MP at a street party this afternoon. Didn’t look very socially distant to me, however as an MP I’ll take his word for it that this is allowed  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Italians in general are much healthier than us Brits smoking aside. They have far lower rates of diabetes, heart disease and obesity than us Brits. They eat healthier and are generally in better health in older age. I lost my grandad 2 years ago. Who was still pretty fit even at 91. Yes he smoked like most Italians do. However his diet was immense given the lack of formal education Southern Italiens received in 30 and 40s

I'm convinced that when a full and comprehensive review is done. One of the key findings that will come out of it. Will find how unhealthy we are as a nation. Which is the failing of successive Tory and Labour governments. What's so wrong in learning kids about nutrition, expanding space so people can grow their own fruit and veg and taxing the hell out of sugury and fatty foods

Edited by Bazzanotsogreat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.