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12 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

The home test kits are count at the start. Gav has posted how the government count the figures. Why keep going the same issues week after week?  

Why dont know how many tests get return or not used. So I not going guess. Cos it would be pointless. 

Chaddy - we know how the tests are being counted. Mine and others' point is that the method they use is just plain wrong. The whole reason we don't know how many tests are returned or not used is that we are counting them at the wrong time. There is no point in counting a test at all until it has been analysed in a lab.

They are producing numbers which are greatly exaggerated and therefore of no real use if you want to know exactly how many have actually been done.

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Posted (edited)

Excess deaths estimated to be 62,100. That’s an estimate on the lower side.

Edited by den

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"Fake news" @Den. Please quote government and/or ONS figures only because they are the only ones that count

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2 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

"Fake news" @Den. Please quote government and/or ONS figures only because they are the only ones that count

Well I could link to which are known deaths (51,441 verified by the ONS) and how the total is estimated (very accurately so far), but thought there was no point doing that any more because some folk would shoot the messenger whatever I posted. 

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46 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

The home test kits are count at the start. Gav has posted how the government count the figures. Why keep going the same issues week after week?  

Why dont know how many tests get return or not used. So I not going guess. Cos it would be pointless. 

What's pointless is counting a test as a test if no one takes the test and never returns it.

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Play video with sound on 😀

 

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Don't mess with Jonathan Van Tam - You got the feeling he wants to tell those journalists to feck off with the barrage of stupid questions :tu:

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1 hour ago, OnePhilT said:

@chaddyrovers It took Keir Starmer to do the simple calculation to raise the point about 10,000 unexplained deaths in care homes. The government either knew about this already, and decided to avoid the subject (irresponsible), or they just heard the news from Starmer (incompetent). They are one of the two, Chaddy; they cannot be neither.

I saw a care home manager being interviewed on Sky News this afternoon. He applied for testing kits ten days ago, and has received nothing as of today. When he received his care home patients back from the hospitals - patients that hadn't been tested, that is - he asked what on Earth was going on to the NHS managers (managers in the Trust, I guess?). They told him that it was government policy, and not their decision. Either they are lying, or they are being ordered to make decisions that are not medically safe. In any case, he was compelled to take them back in, because the NHS managers said that if he didn't, then they would need to involved Social Services, who would have the power to get another (desperate) care home to take them in.

I don't know much about testing kits, chaddy, but this care home stuff is really becoming not just an issue, but a scandal-in-the-making. Something isn't right. It's either sheer incompetence, or some devious plan to hide a lot of deaths. I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but logic tells me that it has to be one of the two.

Starmer got his figures from the ONS site. I do post the stats from the official office of National statistics. 

The news and reporters are very good at reporting negative stories but very rarely report good stories like Care homes or staff who has receive the home test kits and sent them back.  

I have seen the Sky News report on care homes and that a consultant refuse to take an elderly patient who had a coronavirus. Ambulance staff was told not to bring her in. That's need investigating why the Consultant. Have you seen this 30 mins reporter on this?   

1 hour ago, only2garners said:

Chaddy - we know how the tests are being counted. Mine and others' point is that the method they use is just plain wrong. The whole reason we don't know how many tests are returned or not used is that we are counting them at the wrong time. There is no point in counting a test at all until it has been analysed in a lab.

They are producing numbers which are greatly exaggerated and therefore of no real use if you want to know exactly how many have actually been done.

why keep going on and on over the same point for last 3 weeks? 

The Government has told you how the collect and record the data for number of tests. We have heard for Professor John Newton who is in charge of the tests on this. 

55 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

What's pointless is counting a test as a test if no one takes the test and never returns it.

well you or I don't know if tests are all used. So yet again we don't know. 

Do you have figures to post of the number of tests not used or not return?

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1 minute ago, chaddyrovers said:

Starmer got his figures from the ONS site. I do post the stats from the official office of National statistics. 

The news and reporters are very good at reporting negative stories but very rarely report good stories like Care homes or staff who has receive the home test kits and sent them back.  

I have seen the Sky News report on care homes and that a consultant refuse to take an elderly patient who had a coronavirus. Ambulance staff was told not to bring her in. That's need investigating why the Consultant. Have you seen this 30 mins reporter on this?

OK, then it took Starmer to highlight it. The question is why the government either chose to not address it, or why they are trying to switch the focus to Starmer being misleading when he quoted the government word for word from back in March.

The news has been good at negative reporting since news began, but it seems like you're being dismissive of the case I mentioned because "the news is just being negative".

No, I haven't seen the report on that, but it just adds to the strange and numerous examples of confusion. It shouldn't be like this, should it?

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1 hour ago, den said:

Well I could link to which are known deaths (51,441 verified by the ONS) and how the total is estimated (very accurately so far), but thought there was no point doing that any more because some folk would shoot the messenger whatever I posted. 

You like using different figures. The ONS figures are out tomorrow and they are official figures. Why use Estimations?  

27 minutes ago, den said:

Play video with sound on 😀

 

Typical Morgan. Van Tam has explained the Airport quarantine thing a number of times. I got it first time. 

 

Van Tam's answered to Sky News reporter was full of detail and explanation.  

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4 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

You like using different figures. The ONS figures are out tomorrow and they are official figures. Why use Estimations?  

I’ll use whatever figures I like, thank you very much. I’m very confident in them.

if you want to continue kidding yourself, then carry on that’s perfectly fine.

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2 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

OK, then it took Starmer to highlight it. The question is why the government either chose to not address it, or why they are trying to switch the focus to Starmer being misleading when he quoted the government word for word from back in March.

The news has been good at negative reporting since news began, but it seems like you're being dismissive of the case I mentioned because "the news is just being negative".

No, I haven't seen the report on that, but it just adds to the strange and numerous examples of confusion. It shouldn't be like this, should it?

The Government and CMO/CSO have said judge the figures at the end. So that's what they will do I imagine. But why not ask question about the figures tonight in press conference from Journalists. 

Nope. I after a little bit of balance. That's all. Like the 3 weeks old baby that survive the virus or the 14 years old boy who recovered from Coronavirus after using the drug remdesivir. Both reported by the Daily Mail at the time. But not by the National TV media mainly. 

no it shouldn't be from what I am told. 

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, den said:

I’ll use whatever figures I like, thank you very much. I’m very confident in them.

if you want to continue kidding yourself, then carry on that’s perfectly fine.

You will use whatever figures suit your point or arguments at the time. 

Edited by chaddyrovers

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13 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

well you or I don't know if tests are all used. So yet again we don't know. 

Yet the government still count it as a test even though they don't know at the time of counting it in their figures if the test has been used or not. Can you not see the flaw in this?

 

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8 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

You will use whatever figures suit your point or arguments at the time. 

I’ve been very consistent in using excess death figures Chaddy. They are something else you wouldn’t accept simply because they are around twice the number the govt are giving us. You would have accepted them if they had been lower than the govts figures.

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10 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Yet the government still count it as a test even though they don't know at the time of counting it in their figures if the test has been used or not. Can you not see the flaw in this?

 

Do you have figures to post of the number of tests not used or not return?

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Just now, den said:

I’ve been very consistent in using excess death figures Chaddy. They are something else you wouldn’t accept simply because they are around twice the number the govt are giving us. You would have accepted them if they had been lower than the govts figures.

Did I not post the ONS when released last week? 

Government figures are the number of people who have die from the virus in all settings. 

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25 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

The news and reporters are very good at reporting negative stories but very rarely report good stories like Care homes or staff who has receive the home test kits and sent them back.  

That's like me saying why is no one talking about the 3 students in my class who got full marks in their exams and focussing on the fact I beat the rest of the class to the point they needed medical attention. 

If there's more bad then good, then of course they are going to focus on that. 

Can you not see how silly and biased you sound? Not a total like for like, but not far off in logic (if not a moral comparison which I am not likening to) to why does no one focus on Hitler's care for the elderly and say more about that? 

PS the rest of the post is full of false logic too. Critics can't count tests they don't know aren't returned but the government who don't know can. Can you not see the hypocrisy? 

PPS people keep going on about the same points to you because your opinions are proven to be false. That's like me thinking the moon is made of cheese and complaining that people keep making the point the moon is made of rock. Why do they do it - to tackle blatant falsehoods and lies. 

An opinion is not unchallengeable especially when it is a demonstrable lie built on false logic and counter to the evidence. 

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Posted (edited)

Forgot to include quote

Edited by gumboots

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Government figures are the number of people who have die from the virus in all settings. 

.......minus the ones they've omitted from care homes and the community

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Do you have figures to post of the number of tests not used or not return?

No of course we dont but we all know what large numbers of people are like. They only do things if its urgent but even then they fail to return things in post etc

Edited by gumboots

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24 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Nope. I after a little bit of balance.

You're referencing a feel-good story in the Daily Mail - the paper that also saw fit to dedicate itself to painting Starmer as a bad man of the people because he owns a field for his mother's donkey sanctuary that isn't even worth anything up to £10m (no planning permission allowed on it from what I read).

We're digressing a bit to newspapers, but I want to bring it back to why this government is suspected of engineering numbers so that they would seem lower than they are by shipping infected vulnerable patients back into care homes. If there are strong suspicions that there is at best incompetence or at worst foul play, then this government absolutely needs to be held to account. I was of the opinion that this all needed to be looked at later on, but I'm beginning to wonder what more might come out of the woodwork with this government in charge.

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20 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

You will use whatever figures suit your point or arguments at the time. 

This coming from the guy who uses test numbers that they don't know are returned, ignores the excess death count and doesn't like the focus on negative stories. I mean, if we are looking for bias and unobjective views I think you may need to start closer to home then Den...

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10 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Did I not post the ONS when released last week? 

Government figures are the number of people who have die from the virus in all settings. 

I think you’re possibly the only person who thinks the govt figures on deaths are anywhere close to being accurate. 
 

something else to think about, I read this earlier today.....

The only countries that have unexplained excess deaths are those with large numbers of Covid deaths. Those who locked down early and avoided excess mortality from Covid don't have these. Therefore almost all the 'unexplained' excess deaths are, in fact, Covid. 

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