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2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

But they still have systems and structure in place for virus like this which we don't since we don't get these sort of virus in the UK. That's the point and we don't Ewood Ace

In previous weeks we have discuss New Zealand and Australia so I refer you those good points made by @Bazzanotsogreat

We were slow to get the test kits and test centres in place. I have said this a number of times. But we need to learn from this and put in the proper structures and systems in place so make sure this doesn't haven't again. 

Thanks for reply. I will ask him

Then why did they go ahead with Exercise Cygnus in 2016. It was to simulate an epidemic like we are seeing now.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/07/what-was-exercise-cygnus-and-what-did-it-find

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62,600 estimated excess deaths, yet the government have done nothing wrong. I guess we just got unlucky.

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1 hour ago, lsp82 said:

No it is not true...just look up the school..top 2percent in the country for results, outstanding rates by Ofsted and in the most disadvantaged area in Leeds. What the head Chris said was that he wasnt doing online learning but rather doing weekly packs delivered to kids homes as over 80 percent of the children did not have access to laptops for online learning. Completely different.

Ah but if schools can be cast as to blame for not wanting to go back it shifts attention from.the government's poor planning and abandonment of leadership. 

57 minutes ago, lsp82 said:

Aah the Great British common sense!!

 

Again showing why the government needed to take stronger measures and not to rely on "common sense." But tbh who is surprised by this, it was always going to be the case without strong leadership. Sad times though as it increases the risk of the virus spreading and shifts the focus from the government to the people. 

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2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

177,216 test today

And just over 60000 people tested in the past 24 hours. Nearly 40000 people short of what the government pledged to have tested daily by the end of last month, yet they still haven't managed to hit 100000 a day even for a single day. The testing in this country is a source of national shame, that has doubtless cost many lives. 

Edited by Ewood Ace

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1 hour ago, arbitro said:

Then why did they go ahead with Exercise Cygnus in 2016. It was to simulate an epidemic like we are seeing now.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/07/what-was-exercise-cygnus-and-what-did-it-find

Yes I seen this exercise Cygnus mention before. Thanks for the link. I will have a look through the report later. 

But most of those people who was involve in that exercise aren't in Government in the CSO or CMO officers. Whitty or Vallance weren't in the roles. Johnson, Hancock or Rabb wasn't in their roles they are now. I remember Seeing Osbourne talk about this on Question time a couple of weeks ago speaking of this. 

Why haven't the Media and press interview Former Health Secretary Hunt on tv to ask questions of it 

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7 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Yes I seen this exercise Cygnus mention before. Thanks for the link. I will have a look through the report later. 

But most of those people who was involve in that exercise aren't in Government in the CSO or CMO officers. Whitty or Vallance weren't in the roles. Johnson, Hancock or Rabb wasn't in their roles they are now. I remember Seeing Osbourne talk about this on Question time a couple of weeks ago speaking of this. 

Why haven't the Media and press interview Former Health Secretary Hunt on tv to ask questions of it 

You can’t remove the governments responsibility because some of the people involved at that time have changed Chaddy. 

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14 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Yes I seen this exercise Cygnus mention before. Thanks for the link. I will have a look through the report later. 

But most of those people who was involve in that exercise aren't in Government in the CSO or CMO officers. Whitty or Vallance weren't in the roles. Johnson, Hancock or Rabb wasn't in their roles they are now. I remember Seeing Osbourne talk about this on Question time a couple of weeks ago speaking of this. 

Why haven't the Media and press interview Former Health Secretary Hunt on tv to ask questions of it 

Those recommendations wouldn't happen overnight, they would have twosome time to implement. It seems now like it was a box ticking exercise and the arrogance of successive Tory governments thinking it won't happen to us. It wasn't acted upon and for me it's another huge failing.

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24 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Yes I seen this exercise Cygnus mention before. Thanks for the link. I will have a look through the report later. 

But most of those people who was involve in that exercise aren't in Government in the CSO or CMO officers. Whitty or Vallance weren't in the roles. Johnson, Hancock or Rabb wasn't in their roles they are now. 

Some different faces perhaps but it was still a Tory government and that means only one thing for the NHS. Cuts.

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41 minutes ago, den said:

You can’t remove the governments responsibility because some of the people involved at that time have changed Chaddy. 

 

32 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Those recommendations wouldn't happen overnight, they would have twosome time to implement. It seems now like it was a box ticking exercise and the arrogance of successive Tory governments thinking it won't happen to us. It wasn't acted upon and for me it's another huge failing.

My Answer is to both of the people above:-

Well if you read through the article it says that Matt Hancock was told that all recommendations have been done when he became Health Minister. This is why I suggest that Jeremy Hunt has questions to answer about this. Aswell as other ministers or former ministers. Plus current and former CMO, CSO, Public health England officials, social care officials including the head of Care UK. Questions need to be asked of all officials, Staff and organisations that are involved. So you need a full investigate into all of this

24 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Some different faces perhaps but it was still a Tory government and that means only one thing for the NHS. Cuts.

NHS spending is increasing every year. It is UK Law and called NHS Funding Bill. Did you miss this?

Here is the NHS Funding Bill that become law on 16th March 2020. Funding will be between 2021and 2024 will see an increase of just short of 21.5 billions pounds over that period of time plus the extra funding that has been required to support the NHS during this Coronavirus. Hardly a Cut is it. 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/5/section/1/enacted

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5 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

But we don't know that do we? Testing is woeful across the UK. 

Have you not got to grips with this yet....?

It certainly looks that way. One reason why I think football will return is that the Prem (& FL if they ever say yes) will have one of the strongest test, track, and trace programs around.

4 hours ago, lsp82 said:

Yes i agree the infection rates grew fast and testing became unmanageable, however it is clear from the Governments actions in February and March that they allowed that infection rate to grow to where nothing was manageable. I hate to say herd immunity on here but as I was told after those meetings all senior coroners said the same thing its is hard immunity in all but name. If the Government had acted faster and actually had a competent plan testing and tracing would have been a key weapon in combating the virus. As in Germany testing and tracing has never stopped throughout even now. We were too slow in everything from stopping air travel, testing, locking down, supplying PPE, all because the Government went with the wrong plan at the start and when it was clear it was going to cause a catastrophe of epic proportions it was too late. Everything since has been to cover up the mess they have made.

Good points.

It's purely a sideline view but the UK looks to have shifted from "the country is tougher than the virus" to "the virus is tougher than the country".

Shutting up shop was the easy part, opening up is hard, especially without testing on a massive scale.

Trump ballsed up the US response, badly, but unlike the UK state governments (for the most part) picked up the slack. Now states are starting to reopen. Wearing masks, especially when inside (shops, malls) is being promoted widely. Is that happening in the UK?

 

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8 minutes ago, speeeeeeedie said:

It certainly looks that way. One reason why I think football will return is that the Prem (& FL if they ever say yes) will have one of the strongest test, track, and trace programs around.

Good points.

It's purely a sideline view but the UK looks to have shifted from "the country is tougher than the virus" to "the virus is tougher than the country".

Shutting up shop was the easy part, opening up is hard, especially without testing on a massive scale.

Trump ballsed up the US response, badly, but unlike the UK state governments (for the most part) picked up the slack. Now states are starting to reopen. Wearing masks, especially when inside (shops, malls) is being promoted widely. Is that happening in the UK?

 

Honestly can't say if it is as I am stuck in Egypt since they closed the airports. Here though masks are mandatory in public with fines if caught without one. I got pulled up for not having one on getting shopping from my car to take inside!! Speaking to family and friends in UK they say no although they wear them.

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42 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

NHS spending is increasing every year. It is UK Law and called NHS Funding Bill. Did you miss this?

It’s not future promises that are the issue but past performance.

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1 hour ago, speeeeeeedie said:

It certainly looks that way. One reason why I think football will return is that the Prem (& FL if they ever say yes) will have one of the strongest test, track, and trace programs around.

Good points.

It's purely a sideline view but the UK looks to have shifted from "the country is tougher than the virus" to "the virus is tougher than the country".

Shutting up shop was the easy part, opening up is hard, especially without testing on a massive scale.

Trump ballsed up the US response, badly, but unlike the UK state governments (for the most part) picked up the slack. Now states are starting to reopen. Wearing masks, especially when inside (shops, malls) is being promoted widely. Is that happening in the UK?

 

No and in truth I don't think it ever will. It's just not "British". There are a few people wearing them out and about but, on hot days like today, you regularly see them on the chin. 

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1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

My Answer is to both of the people above:-

Well if you read through the article it says that Matt Hancock was told that all recommendations have been done when he became Health Minister. This is why I suggest that Jeremy Hunt has questions to answer about this. Aswell as other ministers or former ministers. Plus current and former CMO, CSO, Public health England officials, social care officials including the head of Care UK. Questions need to be asked of all officials, Staff and organisations that are involved. So you need a full investigate into all of this

NHS spending is increasing every year. It is UK Law and called NHS Funding Bill. Did you miss this?

Here is the NHS Funding Bill that become law on 16th March 2020. Funding will be between 2021and 2024 will see an increase of just short of 21.5 billions pounds over that period of time plus the extra funding that has been required to support the NHS during this Coronavirus. Hardly a Cut is it. 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/5/section/1/enacted

Spending on the NHS has decreased under Tories. That isn't arguable.

What is arguable is why are those spending cuts hitting some disproportionately but that argument can never be had with any die hard Tory or die hard Labour supporter. Each of them is as obtuse as the other on the subject.

However, the final line is this, the Tory party have reduced funding to the NHS. For example them spending increases of over £20bn are spread out over a number of years. It is likely that the reported 4% a year increase in spending (not a small figure, despite the numerical value of the %) will, in real terms, be far less due to inflation. In fact, given what has gone in in 2020 I'll assume inflation will take more than half of that spending increase away.

What does need to be considered is why various NHS "Foundations" are in the financial mess that they are in. If someone tells you it's solely because of the Tories they are lying. If someone tells you it's not the Tories' fault they are lying too. Every politician dating back to the inception of PFI is at fault because they allowed private financiers to tie our health service into insurmountable debt. Labour - so they could say they hit targets. Tories - so they could privatise industry.

Each to blame, equally. Although activists from either side defend each other to the hilt but really we, as a population, should be turning on MPs from both parties and asking why our NHS' finances were left to get into the state they are in now. 

Edited by Dreams of 1995

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Unbelievable that your GP can't order a test for Covid for their patients... just one more strand of uselessness from this lot.

Anthony Costello from the WHO explained how our government have screwed up from the beginning of March with our Herd immunity idea

Edited by Sparks Rover

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41 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Anthony Costello from the WHO explained how our government have screwed up from the beginning of March with our Herd immunity idea

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/18/sage-advice-britain-coronavirus-science-government-policy

Are you referring to this? 

Because by my reading it says the exact opposite. He is laying the blame solely at the door of the experts, SAGE.

The first paragraph even states: "the biggest failure of scientific advice to ministers in our lifetime".

He then basically goes on to call out Sir Mark Walpot from Sage as a bullshitter. 

Continues to say we need to: ".....learn lessons from the scientific debates that might have led to well-intentioned misjudgments."

Then insinuates that SAGE are trying to pass the buck: "If the blame is now subtly being shifted to public health colleagues by core members of Sage, then this heightens the necessity for full transparency."

 

If you meant "Government" as in the whole package then fair enough, but if you're meaning the politicians then I wholeheartedly disagree.

That article sticks the boot into Sage bigtime for me.

 

Reading between the lines it says:

Sage ballsed this up big time, they are now trying to blame everyone else for the failures, so I want to see the full evidence quick sharp......... he then caveats it by saying he doesn't want the blame game played, and quite rightly wants lessons learned so it doesn't happen again. 

Which all seems fair enough to me. Suppose it's about timescales though. They don't want to release the information until the end of the pandemic, he wants it now.

Obviously,  his ulterior motive could be to see if the politicians have ignored or gone against the Sage advice. Which would be a whole other story. But his tone in that article seems to suggest he thinks the advice was followed, it was just wrong advice. 

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4 minutes ago, Silas said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/18/sage-advice-britain-coronavirus-science-government-policy

Are you referring to this? 

Because by my reading it says the exact opposite. He is laying the blame solely at the door of the experts, SAGE.

The first paragraph even states: "the biggest failure of scientific advice to ministers in our lifetime".

He then basically goes on to call out Sir Mark Walpot from Sage as a bullshitter. 

Continues to say we need to: ".....learn lessons from the scientific debates that might have led to well-intentioned misjudgments."

Then insinuates that SAGE are trying to pass the buck: "If the blame is now subtly being shifted to public health colleagues by core members of Sage, then this heightens the necessity for full transparency."

 

If you meant "Government" as in the whole package then fair enough, but if you're meaning the politicians then I wholeheartedly disagree.

That article sticks the boot into Sage bigtime for me.

 

Reading between the lines it says:

Sage ballsed this up big time, they are now trying to blame everyone else for the failures, so I want to see the full evidence quick sharp......... he then caveats it by saying he doesn't want the blame game played, and quite rightly wants lessons learned so it doesn't happen again. 

Which all seems fair enough to me. Suppose it's about timescales though. They don't want to release the information until the end of the pandemic, he wants it now.

Obviously,  his ulterior motive could be to see if the politicians have ignored or gone against the Sage advice. Which would be a whole other story. But his tone in that article seems to suggest he thinks the advice was followed, it was just wrong advice. 

No. He was on Peston.   He was criticising both I suppose.

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2 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

No. He was on Peston.   He was criticising both I suppose.

Ah, right, haven't seen that.

Just saw you quote his name, so looked it up and was confused.

If that's the case I agree with him. The politicians can't hide behind the scientists.  But equally, the scientists shouldn't be hiding away in the background either IMO.

If there's blame to be had then I think they each need to take their fair share. They were all in this together from the start. No "I" in team and all that. 

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8 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Yes I seen this exercise Cygnus mention before. Thanks for the link. I will have a look through the report later. 

But most of those people who was involve in that exercise aren't in Government in the CSO or CMO officers. Whitty or Vallance weren't in the roles. Johnson, Hancock or Rabb wasn't in their roles they are now. I remember Seeing Osbourne talk about this on Question time a couple of weeks ago speaking of this. 

Why haven't the Media and press interview Former Health Secretary Hunt on tv to ask questions of it 

This is breathtakingly naive.

Systems are established to survive people.

You don't even have the excuse of change in Government Party.

Replying to Silas above, SAGE was totally compromised by having Cummings and pal on it. 

How can you get unbiased scientific advice when the majority of the committee can be fired by someone with a reputation for dramatic firings?

Edited by philipl

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The US debate moving onto blaming deaths directly on lockdown inaction. That is a chart in the New York Times.

If 62,000 British deaths and counting get put at number10's door...

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2 hours ago, philipl said:

The US debate moving onto blaming deaths directly on lockdown inaction. That is a chart in the New York Times.

If 62,000 British deaths and counting get put at number10's door...

I think we also have a lot of ‘deaths ‘ in this country due to the money NHS trusts get from crisis death certs rather than normal ones and I have two anecdotal examples . 
anyway we can’t turn back the clock, 

you know what they say , if, ‘it’s’ and ‘buts’ were candy and nuts then every day would be an ünterdonkfest

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10 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

My Answer is to both of the people above:-

Well if you read through the article it says that Matt Hancock was told that all recommendations have been done when he became Health Minister. This is why I suggest that Jeremy Hunt has questions to answer about this. Aswell as other ministers or former ministers. Plus current and former CMO, CSO, Public health England officials, social care officials including the head of Care UK. Questions need to be asked of all officials, Staff and organisations that are involved. So you need a full investigate into all of this

NHS spending is increasing every year. It is UK Law and called NHS Funding Bill. Did you miss this?

Here is the NHS Funding Bill that become law on 16th March 2020. Funding will be between 2021and 2024 will see an increase of just short of 21.5 billions pounds over that period of time plus the extra funding that has been required to support the NHS during this Coronavirus. Hardly a Cut is it. 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/5/section/1/enacted

A certain Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson was a cabinet minister then - surely he would have been aware of it. 

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12 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Yes I seen this exercise Cygnus mention before. Thanks for the link. I will have a look through the report later. 

But most of those people who was involve in that exercise aren't in Government in the CSO or CMO officers. Whitty or Vallance weren't in the roles. Johnson, Hancock or Rabb wasn't in their roles they are now. I remember Seeing Osbourne talk about this on Question time a couple of weeks ago speaking of this. 

Why haven't the Media and press interview Former Health Secretary Hunt on tv to ask questions of it 

You hadn't read it but you still couldn't help commenting on it anyway! Your whole purpose, it seems, is to blame people who were in authority in 2016 and to excuse anyone in power now.

As others have pointed out, there is cross-over anyway----Johnson was a cabinet member etc---- but you miss the point as usual.

The exercise and the report subsequent to it were  for the benefit of government---not particular individuals at the time. The report found UK was not well prepared to tackle a pandemic and recommended the steps that needed to be taken so we were. In particular they highlighted the danger that care homes were in should there be a severe pandemic.

The recommendations were not implemented and we need an enquiry to find out why. I suspect a focus on Brexit and an enduring commitment to Austerity will figure in any findings but we'll see.

Successive Tory governments have failed the people here and its unforgivable.

Edited by 47er

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