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Just now, RoverDom said:

I think you've got to look at it over a period over more a few weeks that people were doing. A 12 month period would give you a good idea of how many of those covid deaths were on their last legs anyway. 

Yes agreed , to look back on it this time next year perhaps . 

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6 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

I think you've got to look at it over a period over more a few weeks that people were doing. A 12 month period would give you a good idea of how many of those covid deaths were on their last legs anyway. 

Excess deaths take account of those that “would have died anyway”. They would be part of the average deaths for the time of year  line.

I would love to know how it’s now believed that coronavirus wasn’t as bad as we first thought? Based on what?

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2 hours ago, RoverDom said:

Someone I know made the point that if this thing is as infectious as people like to claim, why does the swab have to go so far into the nose and throat to get a reliable test. 

That's where your cough or sneeze comes from, no?  Why do a test and not make sure you do ot properly?  You really are picking for the sake of it.  

Look at the USA , in certain states 1 in 4 have the virus.  

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5 minutes ago, den said:

Excess deaths take account of those that “would have died anyway”. They would be part of the average deaths for the time of year  line.

I would love to know how it’s now believed that coronavirus wasn’t as bad as we first thought? Based on what?

If someone had a terminal illness and was going to die in September regardless but then catches coronavirus and dies in July. The July excess death would be +1 "arrrrggghhh nasty covid" but the september would be -1. So for 2020 the excess deaths would be 0. Which is why you've got to look at excess deaths over a longer period than we have been doing. I'm not saying excess deaths doesnt pick up those who would die anyway. I'm saying it does if you only look at half the data. 

 

10 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

That's where your cough or sneeze comes from, no?  Why do a test and not make sure you do ot properly?  You really are picking for the sake of it.  

Look at the USA , in certain states 1 in 4 have the virus.  

The swabs have to go really really far back. If swabbing the mouth / lower nose which coughs and sneezes pass through  isnt picking up enough covid to produce a positive test how much is realistically going to be on a tin of beans I pick up in morrisons. I'm just saying its not at infectious as the people who treat it like it's 'one touch - instant death'

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

The swabs have to go really really far back. If swabbing the mouth / lower nose which coughs and sneezes pass through  isnt picking up enough covid to produce a positive test how much is realistically going to be on a tin of beans I pick up in morrisons. I'm just saying its not at infectious as the people who treat it like it's 'one touch - instant death'

I've heard of being sceptical,  but questioning how a test is carried out to get the best result??  My son had a test and it wasn't as bad as you make out.

Can you post your qualifications in epidemiology please? And we wonder why so many died here with people running about trying to poo poo everything like some medical Columbo....

Compared to other virus, its terribly infectious.   I just hope you and yours don't suffer because of your apathy and ignorance. 

Edited by Sparks Rover

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Just now, Sparks Rover said:

I've heard of being sceptical,  but questioning how a test is carried out to get the best result??  My son had a test and it wasn't as bad as you make out.

Can you post your qualifications in epidemiology please? And we wonder why so many died here with people running about trying to poo poo everything like some medical Columbo....

Compared to other virus, its terribly infectious.   I just hope you and yours don't suffer because of your apathy and ignorance. 

I don’t think he is as such is he ? Just having an open mind about what we have been presented with ? We have no concept of what existing involves , not really , so it’s fairly natural to want to question the unusual . 

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1 hour ago, gumboots said:

Just to say the author Camus is Algerian French. His family were pieds noirs, ie they came to Algeria wearing shoes which made the native Algerians call them black feet as more often than not they themselves wore sandals or went barefoot. 

Camus is one of the greatest writers to have ever lived in my book.

His writing is so direct I was able to read it in the original French. His ability to narrate and inject the most profound human observation is unique. Tragically died in a car accident in 1960.

Even the extreme right wing libertarian American Institute of Economic Research find Camus irresistible- here translated into English.

An extract well worth a read:

https://www.aier.org/article/the-deary-metaphysics-of-lockdown-according-to-albert-camus/

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4 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

I've heard of being sceptical,  but questioning how a test is carried out to get the best result??  My son had a test and it wasn't as bad as you make out.

Can you post your qualifications in epidemiology please? And we wonder why so many died here with people running about trying to poo poo everything like some medical Columbo....

Compared to other virus, its terribly infectious.   I just hope you and yours don't suffer because of your apathy and ignorance. 

If we're going down posting qualifications route we might as well shut down the entire thread. 

So firstly you have no idea what precautions I take. Just cos I'm questioning and curious doesnt mean I'm going round coughing on people. I abide by the guidance even when i dont understand some of it.

Secondly it's a genuine question from someone who doesnt have a medical background. Hopefully you've seen over these various forums I'm fairly balanced and open to having my view changed. If I have this view / misconception about the testing you can bet theres hundreds of others who do as well. If you're in a position  of knowledge youd be better explaining why I've got the wrong end of the stick rather than just calling me ignorant. 

 

So my question is. If I have covid, surely my mouth and nose is crawling with covid 19 virus. Why does not going back far enough produce so many negative results?  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, gumboots said:

Just to say the author Camus is Algerian French. His family were pieds noirs, ie they came to Algeria wearing shoes which made the native Algerians call them black feet as more often than not they themselves wore sandals or went barefoot. 

Oh and I've been carrying on relatively normally in that I've been out and about a lot but I wont be sitting inside a pub or restaurant any time soon. If it's not safe to sit in a theatre then I certainly dong think its safe to sit in a pub. Mostly we have just been out every day walking. I've been in the odd shop other than a supermarket but that's it. I dont think for the majority of people this virus is as bad as you might think from watching news reports but I'm not taking any real chances and I certainly dont want to be responsible for even one other person catching it. 

Camus was also a talented goalkeeper who played for his university team. He could have made it as a pro but he got TB.

Philosophy Football " sell a green  " Camus "  tribute tee shirt with a number 1 and CAMUS on the back and this quote on the front -

" All that I know most surely about morality and and obligation, I owe to football ".

The game was obviously a bit different back in his day !

I'm a bit of a " Philosophy Football " tee shirt addict. I've got about 10. They are really top quality tee's and they last forever from a washing point of view.

My favourite tee shirt is the Sartre shirt. It has SARTRE and number 10 ( inside left winger ) on the back and a quote from " Sartre " on the front - " In football everything is complicated by the presence of the opposite team. "

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, RoverDom said:

Who decides how dangerous it is? 

Scientific and medical experts--you know, the people Gove said we've had enough of. Definitely the ordinary man in the street.

I'm accepting I can't make the judgement and I'll defer to those who are qualified. Its the libertarians who have the arrogance.

Edited by 47er
sp

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2 hours ago, den said:

Excess deaths take account of those that “would have died anyway”. They would be part of the average deaths for the time of year  line.

I would love to know how it’s now believed that coronavirus wasn’t as bad as we first thought? Based on what?

Arrogant and ignorant self-belief.

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1 hour ago, RoverDom said:

If we're going down posting qualifications route we might as well shut down the entire thread. 

Not really. We can discuss our opinions all day so long as we bloody well do as we are told and don't take risks. Not just for you, for everybody else.

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21 minutes ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

Camus also used to drive Andre the giant to school which is an amusing image to think about.

Did he ?? Ha I like that 

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2 hours ago, RoverDom said:

I think you've got to look at it over a period over more a few weeks that people were doing. A 12 month period would give you a good idea of how many of those covid deaths were on their last legs anyway. 

But in the meantime we'll be careful eh?

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Just now, 47er said:

Not really. We can discuss our opinions all day so long as we bloody well do as we are told and don't take risks. Not just for you, for everybody else.

Who isn’t doing as they are told ??? 
does anyone know exactly what they are told ? Don’t you think there has been an air of ambiguity about nearly all the guidance on offer 

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Just now, 47er said:

But in the meantime we'll be careful eh?

What constitutes being careful ? Was I careful when I had to go to work with 150 people and stood no chance of social distancing ? Is getting a hair cut later then a few pints as per the rules careful?

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Just now, Inglorious basturk said:

Who isn’t doing as they are told ??? 
does anyone know exactly what they are told ? Don’t you think there has been an air of ambiguity about nearly all the guidance on offer 

Yes, from the government you are right. Common sense has to take over from those who've failed us in various ways As I said before I couldn't care less what views you hold on this subject so long as you don't put others in jeopardy.

Now I once retired from this debate before. As I said at the time I don't have the stamina of the driven fanatics so I'll stop now.

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Just now, Inglorious basturk said:

What constitutes being careful ? Was I careful when I had to go to work with 150 people and stood no chance of social distancing ? Is getting a hair cut later then a few pints as per the rules careful?

See above.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, 47er said:

Yes, from the government you are right. Common sense has to take over from those who've failed us in various ways As I said before I couldn't care less what views you hold on this subject so long as you don't put others in jeopardy.

Now I once retired from this debate before. As I said at the time I don't have the stamina of the driven fanatics so I'll stop now.

You mean you can’t cope with anything that’s not on a plate ? You don’t help yourself by calling people fanatics when I’ve said all along I’m considering all options . Then you bail if it gets tricky 

by your standards I’ve put hundreds in jeopardy but I’ve had no say in it . I’d have no job  

Edited by Inglorious basturk

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52 minutes ago, 47er said:

Not really. We can discuss our opinions all day so long as we bloody well do as we are told and don't take risks. Not just for you, for everybody else.

 

49 minutes ago, 47er said:

But in the meantime we'll be careful eh?

 

I've never said I haven't followed the rules. I've questioned them and disagreed with some of them but never said I've not followed them. 

I don't know how me saying we should wait 12 months to see the full picture of excess deaths is the same as me saying "screw its let's all go roll around in each other's phlegm" 

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29 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

 

 

I've never said I haven't followed the rules. I've questioned them and disagreed with some of them but never said I've not followed them. 

I don't know how me saying we should wait 12 months to see the full picture of excess deaths is the same as me saying "screw its let's all go roll around in each other's phlegm" 

People have made their mind up about it all and are subsequently rude 

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9 minutes ago, Inglorious basturk said:

People have made their mind up about it all and are subsequently rude 

After saying it's fine to debate it 😂

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11 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

After saying it's fine to debate it 😂

Yes , you don’t have to agree with us but no need for a lack of civility 

thing is too nobody can 100 percent say they are sure what has gone on

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