Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Hyndburn’s well out of her depth MP tried to take on Andy Burnham on Twitter and got absolutely schooled, which was good to watch. 
Imagine thinking a man fighting for his region was in the wrong, just because you’re inexperienced and spineless so you simply toe the party line....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

 

and I doubt you would hear any Tory MP taking him to task over those comments. That’s the way they are, that’s who they are. This is the kind of society they want and it’s what brexit will bring them closer to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, den said:

and I doubt you would hear any Tory MP taking him to task over those comments. That’s the way they are, that’s who they are. This is the kind of society they want and it’s what brexit will bring them closer to.

Probably the most corrupt Govt this country has seen for many a long decade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Astonishing interview with Dido Harding:
 
“Everyone wants to believe that test and trace is a silver bullet. It has never been and it never will be."
 
Government has claimed throughout the "world-beating" Test & Trace system would be way through dark months ahead.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe they should set up a test and trace for Brain cells in the Government? Just when you think things can't get much worse they make it even worse. How long they will last is the big question?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, K-Hod said:

Hyndburn’s well out of her depth MP tried to take on Andy Burnham on Twitter and got absolutely schooled, which was good to watch. 
Imagine thinking a man fighting for his region was in the wrong, just because you’re inexperienced and spineless so you simply toe the party line....

Awaiting Chaddy's report for some balance!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 17/10/2020 at 01:19, chaddyrovers said:

The rate of COVID-19 infections is rising rapidly across the UK. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) estimate that one in every 240 people in England had the virus in the week from 25 September to 1 October and that the numbers infected are doubling every 7 to 12 days. Cases are not evenly spread, with infection rates rising more rapidly in some areas than others.

In Lancashire, infection rates are among the highest in the country and continuing to rise rapidly. Rates are highest for those aged 16 to 29 at 552 per 100,000 people, while in the most vulnerable age group, those aged over 60, cases stand at 214 per 100,000 people. This increases to 594 per 100,000 for the over 60s in Burnley and 671 per 100,000 for 16 to 29 year olds.

You're admitting failure then on behalf of the government?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, 47er said:

Awaiting Chaddy's report for some balance!

In the interest of balance: yes, she's a gobshite 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is to counteract arguments against controlling the virus.

The hard evidence is a sick population equals a sick economy

which means if you don't do a circuit breaker you are more likely to lose jobs and businesses and not pay mortgages

image.png.9a1c5032d3b7742e47211ba04fffe731.png

Brilliant Johnson and Hancock have achieved one of the highest death rates and one of the biggest economic hits

Add No deal Brexit to that and you need to extend the graph downwards to include -30% and a -35% GDP Fall lines to fit in where the British dot goes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a quick update on the hospital a further 2 wards have had to be opened up for Covid patients

ICU is at 95% capacity

staff are being refused rapid turn around swabs as the hospital have been told they are using to many of them

circuit breaker needs putting in place now or the hospital will be overrun by the end of the month at current rates

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, pedrob2014 said:

Just a quick update on the hospital a further 2 wards have had to be opened up for Covid patients

ICU is at 95% capacity

staff are being refused rapid turn around swabs as the hospital have been told they are using to many of them

circuit breaker needs putting in place now or the hospital will be overrun by the end of the month at current rates

Thanks for sharing this, it really does put things into perspective.

The Nightingales are now on standby in Harrogate and Manchester which tells its own story.

We have been saying for a while that we need a national lock down, its clear where this is going, Johnson needs to take his head out of 1922 boys clubs arse and get on with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Gav said:

Thanks for sharing this, it really does put things into perspective.

The Nightingales are now on standby in Harrogate and Manchester which tells its own story.

We have been saying for a while that we need a national lock down, its clear where this is going, Johnson needs to take his head out of 1922 boys clubs arse and get on with it.

Out of curiosity do you think a lockdown in similar fashion to the one in March is required, ie practically everybody?

Within my industry, groundworks construction, the majority of our lads work outside in all weathers, and therefore are less at risk of catching Covid than someone sat in a cinema. It would therefore seem pretty draconian to force them lads off work for 2 weeks and shut down / reopen constuction sites (which is a costly excercise) for a 2 week period which may or may not deliver the results they want to see.

So the people calling for a lockdown: is this a one size fits all action or should there be at least some thought into what industries can continue regardless? At the moment we are getting nothing but one size fits all policy from the government but the opposition are, whilst taking them to task in the media about the "forgotten few", are then calling for a 'circuit breaker' lockdown which will inevitably unfairly punish certain industries with no talk of exceptions or industry by industry differences. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think if we're going to lockdown do it sensibly. Let's not chastise people for sitting on a park bench or daring to go on a walk in the peak district. Let's have a think about what industries can reasonably carry on without risk. 

And most importantly, cancel all half marathons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Out of curiosity do you think a lockdown in similar fashion to the one in March is required, ie practically everybody?

Within my industry, groundworks construction, the majority of our lads work outside in all weathers, and therefore are less at risk of catching Covid than someone sat in a cinema. It would therefore seem pretty draconian to force them lads off work for 2 weeks and shut down / reopen constuction sites (which is a costly excercise) for a 2 week period which may or may not deliver the results they want to see.

So the people calling for a lockdown: is this a one size fits all action or should there be at least some thought into what industries can continue regardless? At the moment we are getting nothing but one size fits all policy from the government but the opposition are, whilst taking them to task in the media about the "forgotten few", are then calling for a 'circuit breaker' lockdown which will inevitably unfairly punish certain industries with no talk of exceptions or industry by industry differences. 

It's a really good question. I could be wrong but from my reading of things I think the circuit breakers main strength is pressing pause rather than solving the problem (which resumes when unpaused). Given how out of control things are - and from what I am hearing stuff really is out of control - a pause seems very necessary to enable us to get a strategy in place that works. Like a competent test and trace, one clear set of rules, working out which industries (like the one you mention) are less dangerous and so on. 

Quite simply if we head on as we are doing we are going to be in an even bigger mess. Stopping brings a hell of a lot of collateral damage but I think the benefits outweigh the costs. 

I'm also struck by how many people apparently aren't following the rules. A mate yesterday said he read of an article that estimates only 18% of those who should self isolate are. From what I've seen round town and elsewhere it seems people are ignoring the rules, so such a low figure doesn't surprise me. Of course it doesnt help the rules are so confusing its hard to follow them even if you want to! 

I guess what I am saying is it seems to be going to hell in a handcart and we need to start again. A circuit breaker would give us the opportunity to do so. 

Would the government make the most of it? Probably not. But it gives them the chance to. And if nothing else it gives the NHS a chance not to be overwhelmed at this moment. 

What annoys me is that it is all so unnecessary and a waste of the previous lockdown to prepare for it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Out of curiosity do you think a lockdown in similar fashion to the one in March is required, ie practically everybody?

Within my industry, groundworks construction, the majority of our lads work outside in all weathers, and therefore are less at risk of catching Covid than someone sat in a cinema. It would therefore seem pretty draconian to force them lads off work for 2 weeks and shut down / reopen constuction sites (which is a costly excercise) for a 2 week period which may or may not deliver the results they want to see.

So the people calling for a lockdown: is this a one size fits all action or should there be at least some thought into what industries can continue regardless? At the moment we are getting nothing but one size fits all policy from the government but the opposition are, whilst taking them to task in the media about the "forgotten few", are then calling for a 'circuit breaker' lockdown which will inevitably unfairly punish certain industries with no talk of exceptions or industry by industry differences. 

I think we need a national lock down similar to March yes, the only difference now is we're slightly better at treating the virus, everything else seems to going the same way as it did back then.

I sympathise with anyone impacted by potential draconian measures, I seem to recall construction sites being allowed to remain open? Or did they come back onsite before most people went back to work? The main concern, especially in London, was how these workers actually got to site, the tube was clearly a place where the virus would thrive, being enclosed and full of people not wearing masks was a disaster waiting to happen. 

A full lock down also stops the ones who couldn't care less about the virus from moving around the place freely, whilst it won't stop everyone, they'll be exposed and dealt with where possible.

SAGE say we need the circuit break, I agree with them, but with a heavy heart for people like the construction industry, service industry etc, but it could save thousands of lives.

The government are an absolute disgrace, where we are now is criminal, no track and trace nationally, that was the way to avoid lock downs, but they pissed that money up the wall, disgusting. They hate PHE and have started disbanding them, PHE has a track and trace system thats excellent, linked to local councils, but the government are laying the blame at PHE's door for the private track and trace which is useless, shifting the blame, confusing the public, who runs what, it pathetic.

If they had adopted the PHE/Local council tracking system at the start we'd be in a much better place than we are now, but nope, big national contracts needed handing out to big business........Its the Tory way.

Edited by Gav

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

It's a really good question. I could be wrong but from my reading of things I think the circuit breakers main strength is pressing pause rather than solving the problem (which resumes when unpaused). Given how out of control things are - and from what I am hearing stuff really is out of control - a pause seems very necessary to enable us to get a strategy in place that works. Like a competent test and trace, one clear set of rules, working out which industries (like the one you mention) are less dangerous and so on. 

Quite simply if we head on as we are doing we are going to be in an even bigger mess. Stopping brings a hell of a lot of collateral damage but I think the benefits outweigh the costs. 

I'm also struck by how many people apparently aren't following the rules. A mate yesterday said he read of an article that estimates only 18% of those who should self isolate are. From what I've seen round town and elsewhere it seems people are ignoring the rules, so such a low figure doesn't surprise me. Of course it doesnt help the rules are so confusing its hard to follow them even if you want to! 

I guess what I am saying is it seems to be going to hell in a handcart and we need to start again. A circuit breaker would give us the opportunity to do so. 

Would the government make the most of it? Probably not. But it gives them the chance to. And if nothing else it gives the NHS a chance not to be overwhelmed at this moment. 

What annoys me is that it is all so unnecessary and a waste of the previous lockdown to prepare for it. 

Cheers Blue blood.

It strikes me that this problem of remerging coronavirus cases isn't restricted to the U.K alone. Nearly all major European countries are seeing cases rise and in countries like France we are seeing reintroductions of curfews similar to over here. The Guardian showed a "before vs after" of Paris curfew, with punters packed into establishments late into the night to get one last drink. So the unruly behaviour isn't a Brit only thing, it's happening throughout mainland Europe too. Which kind of brings me to the point about the effectiveness of lockdowns and restrictions. They seem, on the face of it, to have a profoundly greater effect in parts of Asia than they have in Europe. There's definitely more of a culture of adhering to government guidelines there (whether it is brought about with the carrot or the stick is another argument..) but evidently in Europe our European love of liberty and freedom, and perhaps our penchant for not listening to authority, is having an impact in the effectiveness of policies driven to 'control the virus'. So what makes this particular 'circuit breaker' any different? If the outcome will be a simple pause, then surely not pretending to the public like this is an opportunity to develop systems to prevent this again is the better avenue to take. There's no doubt in my mind that after this 2 week "pause" the r-rate will go start to rise inline with the lifting of restrictions. In a sense all we are doing is delaying the inevitable - another lockdown later down the line, and therefore rinse and repeat until this vaccine, which a hell of a lot of people are refusing to take, is put on the market.

Then we have the current debacle around Greater Manchester. Lancashire and Liverpool held out for what seems like a bigger cheque, where the Labour driven resistance to the lockdown in Manchester seems to be way beyond money. Burnham says this himself. Clearly he doesn't perceive the dangers to public health as great as others do because he is essentially keeping the virus circulating until he receives the outcome from the government he wants. Therefore why should the public take as much care and attention as what central government are telling us to do if local government is in disagreement? This whole game of politics extends to Hancocks rule breaking, Cummings rule breaking etc but I think the Burnham case is particularly relevant as it is here and now.

Like you said, entirely unnecessary, but I do have to keep asking when the end date to this is. Neither government nor opposition have so far provided a reasonable timeline of when they believe the country could/should have suitable mechanisms in place to stop entire swathes of people being locked out of working, seeing family and ultimately contributing positively to society. At the moment there's a lot of people in limbo because politicians can't agree or can't effectively manage any mechanism to prevent the need for further lockdowns.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Cheers Blue blood.

It strikes me that this problem of remerging coronavirus cases isn't restricted to the U.K alone. Nearly all major European countries are seeing cases rise and in countries like France we are seeing reintroductions of curfews similar to over here. The Guardian showed a "before vs after" of Paris curfew, with punters packed into establishments late into the night to get one last drink. So the unruly behaviour isn't a Brit only thing, it's happening throughout mainland Europe too. Which kind of brings me to the point about the effectiveness of lockdowns and restrictions. They seem, on the face of it, to have a profoundly greater effect in parts of Asia than they have in Europe. There's definitely more of a culture of adhering to government guidelines there (whether it is brought about with the carrot or the stick is another argument..) but evidently in Europe our European love of liberty and freedom, and perhaps our penchant for not listening to authority, is having an impact in the effectiveness of policies driven to 'control the virus'. So what makes this particular 'circuit breaker' any different? If the outcome will be a simple pause, then surely not pretending to the public like this is an opportunity to develop systems to prevent this again is the better avenue to take. There's no doubt in my mind that after this 2 week "pause" the r-rate will go start to rise inline with the lifting of restrictions. In a sense all we are doing is delaying the inevitable - another lockdown later down the line, and therefore rinse and repeat until this vaccine, which a hell of a lot of people are refusing to take, is put on the market.

Then we have the current debacle around Greater Manchester. Lancashire and Liverpool held out for what seems like a bigger cheque, where the Labour driven resistance to the lockdown in Manchester seems to be way beyond money. Burnham says this himself. Clearly he doesn't perceive the dangers to public health as great as others do because he is essentially keeping the virus circulating until he receives the outcome from the government he wants. Therefore why should the public take as much care and attention as what central government are telling us to do if local government is in disagreement? This whole game of politics extends to Hancocks rule breaking, Cummings rule breaking etc but I think the Burnham case is particularly relevant as it is here and now.

Like you said, entirely unnecessary, but I do have to keep asking when the end date to this is. Neither government nor opposition have so far provided a reasonable timeline of when they believe the country could/should have suitable mechanisms in place to stop entire swathes of people being locked out of working, seeing family and ultimately contributing positively to society. At the moment there's a lot of people in limbo because politicians can't agree or can't effectively manage any mechanism to prevent the need for further lockdowns.

 

Some more good points and I definitely agree on the end date. As a schools worker I know that the charity I lead, outside of these restrictions and lockdown would flourish. There's more work than we can handle. But with restrictions on who goes into schools it's thin pickings. It leaves me and the Trustees in a hard position knowing there is a thriving charity of 25 years plus but there just isn't the work in this season. So yes an end date / exit strategy is huge and would make an enormous difference. Not heard anything better than when there's a vaccine though on that front...

Agree with much of your post. Especially that it's  not just the local government that is giving an example to ignore the rules though, the government themselves are massively undermining their own guidance. the ITV interview where Boris said it's ok to ignore government guidance /advice if you use common sense was a huge blunder.  A clear set of rules which didn't change every 5 minutes would also help... The Manchester situation is an interesting one as it sees rebel Torys which I thought were extinct/eliminated. Suggests that there.are some very serious concerns there. 

I get from having worked with international students, how much of a divide there is between Asian / European adherence to government rules there is. That said it has still surprised me how many in the UK have ignored/twisted the rules, including a lot of people I would have expected to obey them. Think this government had lost all credibility for this to have happened.

Only point I disagree with is the 2 week lockdown. A breather will make a difference and give the NHS, increasingly localised test and trace a bit more time to prepare and lessen the pressure on them. Just as an example, community nursing, it would allow the redeployment of staff and a vague familiarisation of caseloads, which would in turn ease the pressure later, then them being drafted in into an unfamiliar situation. Its not a long term solution but it would ease the system and might just ease the pressure enough to stop it from breaking. Definitely not a long term solution but just because the government arsed up the opportunity last time doesnt mean the lockdowns don't have any value. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Some more good points and I definitely agree on the end date. As a schools worker I know that the charity I lead, outside of these restrictions and lockdown would flourish. There's more work than we can handle. But with restrictions on who goes into schools it's thin pickings. It leaves me and the Trustees in a hard position knowing there is a thriving charity of 25 years plus but there just isn't the work in this season. So yes an end date / exit strategy is huge and would make an enormous difference. Not heard anything better than when there's a vaccine though on that front...

Agree with much of your post. Especially that it's  not just the local government that is giving an example to ignore the rules though, the government themselves are massively undermining their own guidance. the ITV interview where Boris said it's ok to ignore government guidance /advice if you use common sense was a huge blunder.  A clear set of rules which didn't change every 5 minutes would also help... The Manchester situation is an interesting one as it sees rebel Torys which I thought were extinct/eliminated. Suggests that there.are some very serious concerns there. 

I get from having worked with international students, how much of a divide there is between Asian / European adherence to government rules there is. That said it has still surprised me how many in the UK have ignored/twisted the rules, including a lot of people I would have expected to obey them. Think this government had lost all credibility for this to have happened.

Only point I disagree with is the 2 week lockdown. A breather will make a difference and give the NHS, increasingly localised test and trace a bit more time to prepare and lessen the pressure on them. Just as an example, community nursing, it would allow the redeployment of staff and a vague familiarisation of caseloads, which would in turn ease the pressure later, then them being drafted in into an unfamiliar situation. Its not a long term solution but it would ease the system and might just ease the pressure enough to stop it from breaking. Definitely not a long term solution but just because the government arsed up the opportunity last time doesnt mean the lockdowns don't have any value. 

Yeah good point on the Tory rebels in Manchester. They clearly don't consider this as big a public health disaster as central government going by their comments. Then again, I can also share all sides' frustrations in the Manchester council because they are at the forefront of government failure. Way back in March we went into a national lockdown because London required it. It was evident then that the infection rates in the North West were nowhere near as severe but yet were forced to follow suit. Now the shoe is on the other foot the party line changes.

We will agree to disagree. I think you are giving the government too much credit. It has took them 6 months and countless billions of pounds to get it right and they still haven't. A further 2 weeks won't do anything but kick the can down the road a bit. Although, for the benefit of the NHS and its staff, if 2 weeks is enough to give them breathing space then so be it, have it done, although I suspect we will be having the same arguments mid-December because the government simply hasn't got the faintest idea about what the public requires from them.

I don't think they will localise test and trace because that would be an admission of failure. Quite honestly I think they will use Covid-19 as a reason to further undermine the NHS because so far the public health response to this in the UK has been nothing short of disastrous. Whether the electorate recognise that as a Serco/central govt failure or as a NHS failure remains to be seen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Yeah good point on the Tory rebels in Manchester. They clearly don't consider this as big a public health disaster as central government going by their comments. Then again, I can also share all sides' frustrations in the Manchester council because they are at the forefront of government failure. Way back in March we went into a national lockdown because London required it. It was evident then that the infection rates in the North West were nowhere near as severe but yet were forced to follow suit. Now the shoe is on the other foot the party line changes.

We will agree to disagree. I think you are giving the government too much credit. It has took them 6 months and countless billions of pounds to get it right and they still haven't. A further 2 weeks won't do anything but kick the can down the road a bit. Although, for the benefit of the NHS and its staff, if 2 weeks is enough to give them breathing space then so be it, have it done, although I suspect we will be having the same arguments mid-December because the government simply hasn't got the faintest idea about what the public requires from them.

I don't think they will localise test and trace because that would be an admission of failure. Quite honestly I think they will use Covid-19 as a reason to further undermine the NHS because so far the public health response to this in the UK has been nothing short of disastrous. Whether the electorate recognise that as a Serco/central govt failure or as a NHS failure remains to be seen. 

Not sure I've been said to give the government too much credit ever before! Definitely have reservations that they would use another lockdown well. In fact I'm fairly confident they won't. But it could and should give them the time to get more on top of things. Whether they will is another matter...

I suspect you may well be right regarding the need for one in December too. But that doesn't mean the breathing space isn't beneficial, either now or December. And it is definitely needed.

I think that devolving the test and trace is already happening, albeit under council only initiatives and not as that brand? Unless  I've misread the news I think there's been lots of reports of council's doing a better job tracking people down? The two week break gives them more chance to get on with it. That said I agree with you I feel the government will use it to further dismantle the NHS. Just think how the NHS and local councils would've been strengthened with the money given to their mates. 

In fact that's one of the things that annoys me most, is that the corruption barely even gets on the public's  radar due to all the other muck ups. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.