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They announced the 'herd immunity' idea at the first news conference didn't they? Then backtracked after heavy backlash from almost all sides. Not sure there's any real debate to be had there!

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11 minutes ago, den said:

The chief medical officer did Gav. It was denied by the government after they were warned that 250,000 people would die from the strategy they were following - and changed course.

If that is true you can’t blame the government for taking the advice from the experts can you? 
 

We are all experts after the fact, reading between the lines it took 2 days for the experts to change the advice, once the data filtered through for China/Italy.

Its a bit of a stretch to hammer them for that, following expert advice is what us left leaning posters have long been advocating.

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46 minutes ago, Gav said:

Has the government actually said they adopted a herd immunity policy and changed their minds?

Or is this fake news? and don't quote to me far flung websites or The Scum.

If you know a little bit about this virus you will know that the lockdown was always going to happen when it happened, herd immunity or not.

No they haven't said they adopted it as far as I'm aware. By that I mean I don't recall them using the term. They wouldn't say that would they?

Edited by 47er

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Just now, Gav said:

If that is true you can’t blame the government for taking the advice from the experts can you? 
 

We are all experts after the fact, reading between the lines it took 2 days for the experts to change the advice, once the data filtered through for China/Italy.

Its a bit of a stretch to hammer them for that, following expert advice is what us left leaning posters have long been advocating.

There was discussion and criticism in the media and  on here before the government did a U-Turn. Working out that herd immunity meant leaving thousands to their fate wasn't difficult to work out and is why common sense prevailed. But, I repeat, a vital fortnight was lost.

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16 minutes ago, DE. said:

They announced the 'herd immunity' idea at the first news conference didn't they? Then backtracked after heavy backlash from almost all sides. Not sure there's any real debate to be had there!

Don't think he announced it but wasnt he asked a question about it and talk about it being a possibility. It was discussed in meetings but not policy. Think someone last week posted that herb immunity wasnt policy from government. 

11 minutes ago, Gav said:

If that is true you can’t blame the government for taking the advice from the experts can you? 
 

We are all experts after the fact, reading between the lines it took 2 days for the experts to change the advice, once the data filtered through for China/Italy.

Its a bit of a stretch to hammer them for that, following expert advice is what us left leaning posters have long been advocating.

The government is listening to the country's best medical and scientific officers. 

Spain has overtook China in total number of death. 3,434 people has passed away. 

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3 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Don't think he announced it but wasnt he asked a question about it and talk about it being a possibility. It was discussed in meetings but not policy. Think someone last week posted that herb immunity wasnt policy from government. 

The government is listening to the country's best medical and scientific officers. 

Spain has overtook China in total number of death. 3,434 people has passed away. 

No herb immunity wasn't , but no matter what you say Herd immunity was. How many people need to tell you this and how much evidence do you need to see before you admit reality? 

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4 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Don't think he announced it but wasnt he asked a question about it and talk about it being a possibility. It was discussed in meetings but not policy. Think someone last week posted that herb immunity wasnt policy from government. 

The first strategy was "mitigation" which was explained as such:

Quote

He said: "Our aim is to try and reduce the peak, broaden the peak, not suppress it completely.

"Also, because the vast majority of people get a mild illness, to build up some kind of herd immunity so more people are immune to this disease."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51915302

So yes I would say herd immunity was a part of the original policy, even if they u-turned very quickly when presented with evidence suggesting their plans would lead a significant amount of people to an unnecessary early grave. 

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30 minutes ago, Gav said:

If that is true you can’t blame the government for taking the advice from the experts can you? 
 

We are all experts after the fact, reading between the lines it took 2 days for the experts to change the advice, once the data filtered through for China/Italy.

Its a bit of a stretch to hammer them for that, following expert advice is what us left leaning posters have long been advocating.

People were spelling it out here weeks, if not months ago. Look at Philpls post on page 1 of the thread. I don't get this after the fact stuff or Chaddys favorite "hindsight". It's as if some are just refusing to acknowledge reality. It's bizzare. 

The key issue was you were behind other countries shutting things down. They had the info, so how did you not? 

Edited by Bigdoggsteel

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5 hours ago, Ossydave said:

Why? Because it doesn't affect you if they close?

If those companies can still operate safely then they should remain open. 

There is a rise for demand in MANY mail order items that are helping people through this, I know because I work in the industry. They can't bob down the shops for home exercise equipment or garden toys for the kids as 2 examples. 

Also this may surprise you Chaddy but a hell of a lot of goods on sale in this country are imported from the far east and the like, working with 12 week lead times or longer. When this mess all ends we ALL need to be ready to hit the ground running and get economy back on its feet.

It will affect me as I worked in the Manufacturing warehouse industry but I currently on day 7 of my self isolated with my missus and daughter. 

I am fully aware about goods coming from far east as I unloaded these types of wagons. 

I agree we need the economy to hit the ground running after this but we need to put people's health 1st

3 hours ago, philipl said:
I read out the government guidance to you on this directly this morning

and you rejected it.

 

Quote Tweet
 
5ovqIK49_normal.jpg
Michael Gove
 
@michaelgove
 
I wasn’t clear enough earlier, apologies. To confirm - while children should not normally be moving between households, we recognise that this may be necessary when children who are under 18 move between separated parents. This is permissible & has been made clear in the guidance

Happened yesterday on Good Morning Britain. Watched it live

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14 minutes ago, DE. said:

The first strategy was "mitigation" which was explained as such:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51915302

So yes I would say herd immunity was a part of the original policy, even if they u-turned very quickly when presented with evidence suggesting their plans would lead a significant amount of people to an unnecessary early grave. 

Fair enough. Hold my hands up. But the government listened to the country's Chief medical and scientific officers and departments. 

 

Edited by chaddyrovers

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1 hour ago, Gav said:

I could be mistaken but I'm sure you praised and supported the Chancellors financial help for people Jim? 

 Helping PAYE employees with their wages was the least they could do, but that's a long way from saying the government is doing a good job. And then there's the self-employed.....

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27 minutes ago, 47er said:

But, I repeat, a vital fortnight was lost.

Yeah,  you do keep repeating this.

Where have you got that timeline from?

It was Thurs to Mon as far as I know. 4 days. 

4 days out of about 60. (6%).

And yet it's all anyone goes on about in this thread. Very odd.

What about the other 94% of the timeline? Maybe worth a mention no?

You can still bash the Government for it's actions, or lack of, during that bigger period if you want. But, instead you home in on the tiny part of it.

Maybe because it's an easy target right? A big stick to try and beat them with. They admitted they got it wrong, changed, and moved on from there. Get over it.

People need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture, preferably through untinted glasses. 

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4 minutes ago, Silas said:

Yeah,  you do keep repeating this.

Where have you got that timeline from?

It was Thurs to Mon as far as I know. 4 days. 

4 days out of about 60. (6%).

And yet it's all anyone goes on about in this thread. Very odd.

What about the other 94% of the timeline? Maybe worth a mention no?

You can still bash the Government for it's actions, or lack of, during that bigger period if you want. But, instead you home in on the tiny part of it.

Maybe because it's an easy target right? A big stick to try and beat them with. They admitted they got it wrong, changed, and moved on from there. Get over it.

People need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture, preferably through untinted glasses. 

Pretty strong viewpoint from a mod. Are you not mean to be impartial? 

I think what 47er is saying is very relevant 

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10 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

To provide some balance here, the population in Italy in 2019 was recorded at approx 60.5 m 

The death rate for the same year was recorded as 10.566 deaths per 1000 head of population.

Unless I've misinterpreted the data that means approx 783,000 people died in Italy in 2019 or approx 65,200 per month. Whilst I dont know I'd also have thought that more people usually die over a month in February and March than say July and August.

It has also been admitted by one of the Chief Scientific Officers in Italy that one of the reasons why the rates in Italy might appear higher than in other Countries is that Italy record all deaths of people dying  WITH Corona virus as dying BECAUSE OF Corona virus whereas other Countries record their data differently. In fact on independent analysis only 12% of the deaths could be solely attributed to the virus.

So whilst the likes of Sky News like to provide us with a daily head count from each Country to ramp up the sense of panic, we need to know a lot more about these figures before we get a proper picture. Is it 6k extra deaths per month on top of the normal 65,200 (which would be a lot) or somewhat less?

What do we make of it all if it transpires  the overall death toll is virtually unchanged from normal and that overall people are merely dying with Corona virus at roughly the same rate as before albeit from  a differently recorded cause?

Or if  (perhaps more likely) there is a temporary spike  because the virus is targeting the most vulnerable first and all at once andthat by the end of the year the figures have balanced themselves out?

You ignore most of the Italian deaths are from just two regions of Italy, not the entire population.

Bergamo's death rater, according to their Mayor, is running at four times that of the same period last year.

Nembro, within the region, is reported to have had as many deaths since the beginning of March than they had all last year.

 

 

Edited by Hasta

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2 hours ago, Peteb2014 said:

For those moaning about having to stay indoors and being on lockdown my wife is working 3 12 hour shifts a week at the hospital and if you having to stay in doors and has a impact on your life for a month or 2 but it keeps her alive and stops her from getting the disease, keeps our 2 young kids with a mum then I have 2 words for you and make no apologies for them tough shit

I know of civil servants who are having to go and mix in offices when they could easily work from home . 
it must be remembered that civil servants are vital key workers but most could and probably want to work from home 

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2 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Pretty strong viewpoint from a mod. Are you not mean to be impartial? 

 

Where did you get the impression Mods weren't allowed "viewpoints".

I think it's been brought up many times on the board.

Does it look like I'm currently "modding" something? 

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7 minutes ago, 47er said:

Sort of trivialises a bit?!! its not a hissy fit!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/17/new-data-uk-government-coronavirus-pandemic-measures

Think this scientist puts it best:

"It’s easy to criticise those in charge, but I can’t overemphasise how difficult these decisions are. There is no one right answer about how to tackle a pandemic caused by an entirely novel virus. "

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Just now, Silas said:

They admitted they got it wrong,

When ? 

They acknowledged that “drastic action” and a change of direction was required but as far as I recall they never admitted they got it badly wrong. 

You might not like it but the fact is the government has screwed this up badly and the only option to try to mitigate the disaster they've caused through their weeks of dither and delay is to urgently do what they should have been doing from the beginning: test, contact trace, and isolate the infected.

 

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43 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

 Helping PAYE employees with their wages was the least they could do, but that's a long way from saying the government is doing a good job. And then there's the self-employed.....

Bill coming this week to help them. Not easy system for government to come up with a system

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1 hour ago, Gav said:

If that is true you can’t blame the government for taking the advice from the experts can you? 
 

We are all experts after the fact, reading between the lines it took 2 days for the experts to change the advice, once the data filtered through for China/Italy.

Its a bit of a stretch to hammer them for that, following expert advice is what us left leaning posters have long been advocating.

I guess the key point is other countries had the same or less information and reacted differently.

We're too early on the curve to see the impact of the governments decisions but it will be pretty plain in a couple of months.

The main thing that's clear is all Western governments really really dropped the ball on testing, the UK government particularly so.

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42 minutes ago, Silas said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/17/new-data-uk-government-coronavirus-pandemic-measures

Think this scientist puts it best:

"It’s easy to criticise those in charge, but I can’t overemphasise how difficult these decisions are. There is no one right answer about how to tackle a pandemic caused by an entirely novel virus. "

Well I would say mass testing is always going to be a good idea. I can't think of a scenario where that isn't the case. So not doing that was, imo, a real balls up.

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59 minutes ago, Inglorious basturk said:

Herb immunity !!! That may have an effect on your taste bugs !!!

The important factor is the thyme it takes to work.

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