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Prelude

Can we make the Playoffs?

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1 hour ago, Parsonblue said:

I suspect that you, like me, are old enough to remember Preston dropping out of the top flight in 1960.  They've not been back since - so 60 years of "treading water" as you put it.  However, the North End fans I know have still enjoyed their football.  Still enjoyed the ups and downs (and there have been plenty of the latter).  No club has the guaranteed right to top flight football.  Whatever has happened in the past is in the past - good and bad.  Today we are a club that is trying to get to grips with FFP and put a team on the pitch that can achieve what we all want.  Sadly, there is no magic wand that is going to restore the club to where it was a decade ago.

 

Lets not compare budgets between us and Preston over the last 20 years though eh.

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47 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

Last season 74 points got Derby in the play-offs so that means we would probably need somewhere between 30-35 points from our remaining 16 games, so to keep the arithmetic simple, 2 points per game on average.

Could we win say 9, draw 5 & lose 2 ? Put like that, it doesn’t sound totally implausible. But let’s overlay reality now, we have lost our best player, possibly his replacement, have not been in the top 6 since Kean was here (I think...) and all of a sudden it’s more of a pipe-dream.

if we finish top ten, a five place improvement would I believe be a decent season.

 

Win 9, draw 5, lose 2? That sounds totally implausible.

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1 hour ago, Parsonblue said:

I suspect that you, like me, are old enough to remember Preston dropping out of the top flight in 1960.  They've not been back since - so 60 years of "treading water" as you put it.  However, the North End fans I know have still enjoyed their football.  Still enjoyed the ups and downs (and there have been plenty of the latter).  No club has the guaranteed right to top flight football.  Whatever has happened in the past is in the past - good and bad.  Today we are a club that is trying to get to grips with FFP and put a team on the pitch that can achieve what we all want.  Sadly, there is no magic wand that is going to restore the club to where it was a decade ago.

You keep talking about the situation as though we have no money. This is the paradox that Venkys bring to the equation.

But ignoring the fact that if they wanted and were not being directed otherwise they could get around FFP or even pay for the consequences...

FFP only seems to be a barrier to Rovers, and it’s a problem brought about by poor spending by Mowbray. We are in this situation because of him. He has gambled our future and lost. Why does he get to carry on? Probably because he waxes lyrical about the natural order of things, talks about Rovers as though they are plucky lower league team who are lucky to be a top 10 side. His lack of ambition, lack of abilities in recruitment and selection, and his parochialism are holding us back. Much like you defended Bowyer with the exact same argument as we peaked, plateaued and then fell, you are doing the same with Mowbray. Both nice chaps who you could enjoy a cup of tea and a chat with, I’m sure, but football managers need to be one-eyed, success-hungry bastards with coaches of a certain standing. I can’t believe that we have to scramble around when a fraction of the money Mowbray has wasted could have brought in a Wagner or a Farke or a Dyche.

“No magic wand”, is just painfully condescending. Nobody expects top flight football as a right but it is where we need to be. Bookending Rovers may suit the historian angle but I want us to have long term prospects, and without a short term fix to our loss-making and utter reliance on the Raos, we may well not have one.

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2 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

I suspect that you, like me, are old enough to remember Preston dropping out of the top flight in 1960.  They've not been back since - so 60 years of "treading water" as you put it.  However, the North End fans I know have still enjoyed their football.  Still enjoyed the ups and downs (and there have been plenty of the latter).  No club has the guaranteed right to top flight football.  Whatever has happened in the past is in the past - good and bad.  Today we are a club that is trying to get to grips with FFP and put a team on the pitch that can achieve what we all want.  Sadly, there is no magic wand that is going to restore the club to where it was a decade ago.

 

 I don't see how Preston's history is relevant to Rovers in the Venky's era. We're different to PNE. We were an established PL club with a top management and infrastructure on a different level to theirs. Then we threw it away.

The point is, the longer we remain out of the PL the harder it will be to get back. Since we were relegated in 2012 we haven't been in the playoffs once. I don't see any sign of progress whatsoever - on any level since we went down.

There is a magic wand - it is identifying a very good manager and keeping him. Burnley have done it, and many others. I grates to see the likes of Bournemouth, Brighton and Watford - third division and fourth clubs to my mind - in the PL when we are languishing.

I'd like your thoughts on why you think "we are making progress" - because I don't see any

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2 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

I suspect that you, like me, are old enough to remember Preston dropping out of the top flight in 1960.  They've not been back since - so 60 years of "treading water" as you put it.  However, the North End fans I know have still enjoyed their football.  Still enjoyed the ups and downs (and there have been plenty of the latter).  No club has the guaranteed right to top flight football.  Whatever has happened in the past is in the past - good and bad.  Today we are a club that is trying to get to grips with FFP and put a team on the pitch that can achieve what we all want.  Sadly, there is no magic wand that is going to restore the club to where it was a decade ago.

 

I really respect your views, Parson and the fact that you are about as die hard as it gets.

However, it feels like you are missing some points in the post above.

1) I’m not sure what relevance PNE have.

2) We are getting to grips with FFP because of the signings Mowbray has made.

3) The magic wand is appointing the right manager and making better signings.

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4 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Sorry No I dont. At all. You might want to have that attitude but I dont. 

Dont like my attitude then dont reply or quote my posts. No one is forcing you to quote then!

That's not particularly fair Chaddy! 

You ask why not. He gives some reasons why it may not happen. Apart from answering your question (the one you asked!) in a very well reasoned and friendly manner he also used facts- not "attitude" or "opinions". 

This is why people dislike discussing things with you. You get in a huff when they disagree, you call facts you don't like attitudes and opinions so you can ignore them, and don't engage properly - as in you twist their points, misinterpret them and deflect - with what anyone who disagrees says at all. 

Really poor do to have a huff when someone dares to disagree with you in a thread all about discussing whether we can get promoted! 

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18 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

I really respect your views, Parson and the fact that you are about as die hard as it gets.

However, it feels like you are missing some points in the post above.

1) I’m not sure what relevance PNE have.

2) We are getting to grips with FFP because of the signings Mowbray has made.

3) The magic wand is appointing the right manager and making better signings.

There was a reason why we went from being likely candidates for dropping down into the old Fourth Division to regularly knocking on the door of the old First Division. That was because we had a board consisting of local people who knew enough about pro football that they were able to appoint a series of young and up and coming managers that one by one turned the club completely around. With the sole exception of Jim Iley all the incumbents in that era had more about them than our current manager.

Without leadership at the very top we are like a rudderless ship.

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3 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

I suspect that you, like me, are old enough to remember Preston dropping out of the top flight in 1960.  They've not been back since - so 60 years of "treading water" as you put it.  However, the North End fans I know have still enjoyed their football.  Still enjoyed the ups and downs (and there have been plenty of the latter).  No club has the guaranteed right to top flight football.  Whatever has happened in the past is in the past - good and bad.  Today we are a club that is trying to get to grips with FFP and put a team on the pitch that can achieve what we all want.  Sadly, there is no magic wand that is going to restore the club to where it was a decade ago.

Of course no one has a right to be in the Premiership but is essential we get back there soon because it's not sustainable for us with our finances to continue mid table in the Championship. The best and easiest way to help get our finances back on track is promotion. If this club spends 50 years outside the top flight then goodness knows where it will be, that's if it is anywhere at all.

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1 hour ago, Blue blood said:

That's not particularly fair Chaddy! 

You ask why not. He gives some reasons why it may not happen. Apart from answering your question (the one you asked!) in a very well reasoned and friendly manner he also used facts- not "attitude" or "opinions". 

This is why people dislike discussing things with you. You get in a huff when they disagree, you call facts you don't like attitudes and opinions so you can ignore them, and don't engage properly - as in you twist their points, misinterpret them and deflect - with what anyone who disagrees says at all. 

Really poor do to have a huff when someone dares to disagree with you in a thread all about discussing whether we can get promoted! 

I still believe we can get top 6 even now. He doesn't. We disagree. I posted Villa wasnt in playoffs place at this stage and believe were 13th at one point in February/March and end up in playoffs and getting promoted. There is Fact for you. 

No one in huff so please don't post such rubbish. 

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6 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Sorry No I dont. At all. You might want to have that attitude but I dont. 

Dont like my attitude then dont reply or quote my posts. No one is forcing you to quote then!

 

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I still believe we can get top 6 even now. He doesn't. We disagree. I posted Villa wasnt in playoffs place at this stage and believe were 13th at one point in February/March and end up in playoffs and getting promoted. There is Fact for you. 

No one in huff so please don't post such rubbish. 

The bit in bold does sound a bit huffy! 

Am not too sure where to start on this as it is a mega piece of deflection, again. 

Ok, let's start with opinions:

He gives 3 or 4 reasons why we won't go up - facts you ignore or have no comeback to. Now - and this is key - just because someone has an opinion doesn't make it correct or valid. I might have the opinion we're going to get relegated or I'm the next Alan Shearer football wise. Now just because I have these opinions doesn't mean they are correct or valid or particularly likely. (Neither of these are btw.) So just stating this is my opinion doesn't make it correct or in line with reality.

For example my "we are going to get relegated opinion" - people could point to the number of points between us and relegation, our form, the number of teams below us and their form and so on - all showing that the huge likelihood is we aren't going down. My response of "well that's my opinion" doesn't make my opinion any more credible. 

Do you see what I'm saying here?

At least in your last post you used a fact. Ok, it doesn't answer the issues put to you why we won't get promoted but it is a fact and shows its possible for teams to come from nowhere. 

My response - engaging with this point -is yes teams come from nowhere so it is technically possible. In fact I think one team will come from nowhere in, and often does so it is one piece of evidence for us possibly making it. 

However there are still the 3 or 4 issues highlighted going against this fact/Villa case study. Also factor in Villa changed their manager (we haven't) and brought in a couple of key players like Mings (we brought no one) which were the catalyst for this change/promotion push. Given we have neither of these factors to give us a boost I would suggest it is unlikely to see us make a similar upward charge. 

Hopefully the above engages with your point and shows my thoughts on it. 

Apologies if this is a bit passive aggressive - not the intent. What I am trying to show is that just stating an opinion doesn't make it valid and that people's points need to be engaged with. 

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Villa have a very good manager and one or two exceptional players. We have an average manager and some good players, with some key ones injured.

Citing Villa as an example of something we can emulate as Chaddy has done is pure fantasy

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3 hours ago, tomphil said:

'So Jack we've consolidated last season and after investing 12 million of your hard earned i think we can finish a place or so above that this season. What do you think ?'

 

"Fuck off Tony"

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3 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Villa have a very good manager and one or two exceptional players. We have an average manager and some good players, with some key ones injured.

Citing Villa as an example of something we can emulate as Chaddy has done is pure fantasy

Pure fantasy?

Why can't it be done? 

Injuries happened. That's football sadly. Gives opportunity for others. 

 

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Our bed is made when we can't overcome teams like Charlton and Luton at home (throw Reading and Birmingham in there, too). Even with our bad run over Christmas, just imagine what a difference beating those two would have made to our outlook now. I suppose you could say that an unexpected win away at Sheffield Wednesday and Bristol City balances things out, but you have to have a solid foundation of results against the lesser teams to then see what you can do against the promotion rivals.

This has been a problem for as long as I can remember under Mowbray. We got away with it in League One when we went down to teams like Southend and Doncaster early on, but there's no way you can get away with it in this league.

Averaging two points per game would have been hard enough with Dack in the team, but given our latest injury problems, it's difficult to see how we are going to improve on our current average.

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9 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Pure fantasy?

Why can't it be done? 

Injuries happened. That's football sadly. Gives opportunity for others. 

 

Why can't it be done? Because we're not good enough, plain as the nose on your face. The league table doesn't lie. 

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2 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

There was a reason why we went from being likely candidates for dropping down into the old Fourth Division to regularly knocking on the door of the old First Division. That was because we had a board consisting of local people who knew enough about pro football that they were able to appoint a series of young and up and coming managers that one by one turned the club completely around. With the sole exception of Jim Iley all the incumbents in that era had more about them than our current manager.

Without leadership at the very top we are like a rudderless ship.

Indeed Tyrone.

Parson likes to quote the past to back up the present situation in a lot of his posts. He'd do well to remember us consistently knocking on the door of promotion in the 80s when we didn't have a pot to piss in.

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2 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

There was a reason why we went from being likely candidates for dropping down into the old Fourth Division to regularly knocking on the door of the old First Division. That was because we had a board consisting of local people who knew enough about pro football that they were able to appoint a series of young and up and coming managers that one by one turned the club completely around. With the sole exception of Jim Iley all the incumbents in that era had more about them than our current manager.

Without leadership at the very top we are like a rudderless ship.

That is key to the issue. There does not seem any pressure to perform at Rovers. Large portions of the fans accept mediocrity and don't get on the back of the manager unless winless runs make double figures.  The manager doesn't demand every ounce of effort and fight from the players (but will call out the youngsters at the drop of a hat), there isn't a man of captain material on the pitch barking at the players and leading by example, the Chief Exec (or whatever Waggott is) isn't remotely demanding of the manager or coaches and the owners in a faraway land, don't appear to have aspirations of success.

 

It is no wonder we are where we are: languishing in the safety of no man's land. 

Edited by Pedro

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Absolutely no chance we have neither the squad or the manager capable of getting us into the top 6.

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6 hours ago, philipl said:

Players are definitely good enough.

Without the Manager dropping stupid points we's be in the top 2.

Are they? Especially accounting for the injuries and considering the lack of signings?

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Players good enough however we are a squad tactically inept because Mowbray struggles to out the right formation out until we are chasing games.

happy with a top 10 finish this season as it is another year of progress - 2021 is our year

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1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I still believe we can get top 6 even now. He doesn't. We disagree. I posted Villa wasnt in playoffs place at this stage and believe were 13th at one point in February/March and end up in playoffs and getting promoted. There is Fact for you. 

No one in huff so please don't post such rubbish. 

Totally different situation. Aston Villa had only appointed their new manager in October, so it made sense for their general consistent performance to improve once the manager had settled in, we dont have that so a consistent increase in point accumulation would be somewhat unexpected.

Add to this, Villa werent hit by the same injury problems, Dack is a huge blow for example, whereas they still had Abraham banging in the goals. Throw in Evans, Cunningham, Rothwell and Holtby and we are struggling.

And crucially, to rectify their main issue, they made a huge signing in the January window of Tyrone Mings, as well as signing Kourtney Hause.

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5 hours ago, Stuart said:

Win 9, draw 5, lose 2? That sounds totally implausible.

You kind of selectively ignored the very next sentence...😆

Our best run of the season?
P15 W8 D4 L3 Pts 28 @ 1.86 per game 

...had we not lost Dack, Holtby, Evans & Rothwell...might we have continued that form? 
 

Well we’ll never know now, but it’s not a massive leap of faith from 1.86 ppg to 2.0 I would venture...

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