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West Brom at home

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, tomphil said:

Nonsense, you've been on the juice pal. Next season will be more of the same but if as is feared there;s a drastic budget cut or sales we are really up against it.

You'll be on here by October saying give him the next 3 then till Christmas then the window etc etc 😂

Well we’ll have to see about that.

Unlike seemingly everyone I really am able to change my opinion on available evidence.

Thought TM was a goner this time last year when we lost a billion games on the bounce, for example.

 

But this season, for me, we’ve been better in every department.

Of course there’s things I disagree with the managers decisions/recruitment/selections but that’s football innit.

 

Thought it was a good game today and I reckon I’m not alone in wanting to find a place to have a balanced discussion about who played well, about what happened in the game, what I think about a certain player, decision etc.

It’s just constant “Mowbray X,Y,Z is shit” on here.


-edit-

Bit razor tongued

Edited by S8 & Blue

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Don't think you can overestimate the impact of Dack's absence either. 

Someone said before, "Oh, everyone's had injuries".

How many other sides had their best player out for half a season?

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But there’s always “Oh we’ve been better without him” because we have to play differently than what TM wanted.

 

As if that is a valid criticism of the manager or squad.

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But we would have played differently without Rhodes --- and gone up !   That was the cry here 😉

That was bull just as the assumption we'd be guaranteed to be in the play offs now if he hadn't been out is.

Never that straightforwards lads.

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Just now, tomphil said:

But we would have played differently without Rhodes --- and gone up !   That was the cry here 😉

That was bull just as the assumption we'd be guaranteed to be in the play offs now if he hadn't been out is.

Never that straightforwards lads.

It’s almost as if...

We should try to view the games and trajectory of the club objectively!?

 

It’ll never catch on @tomphil

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TM is accorded the benefit of the wider context of if we get rid his replacement would likely be worse. It's an argument I have a lot of time for given we recruit from a second rate agency. However the wider context should also be applied to how quickly we need promotion and the odds of a slow build happening being slim indeed. Dack, Armstrong, Lenihen all will be gone in the next year or two - it's the nature of football and a pattern under Vs. So a slow build isn't really that viable, and I feel we stand on the edge of another shut down resources and bust cycle. With this in mind IF we can keep the squad together next year it very much must be last chance saloon. As it is, I fear we are already drinking in it. The squad needs a fair number replacing with loans and aging stars and there's never been a more open championship where an ounce more consistency or quality and we would be a few points better off and comfortably in playoffs. 

Which brings us on to today's game. Another one that shows the skills and flaws of TM's Rovers in equal measure. A point against a very good standard of opposition is not to be sniffed at and shows we are a decent to good side. However we perhaps could and should have won, which would have put us solidly back in the race, but once again failed to do so. We really are a close but no cigar (wherever that phrase comes from) type of team. We clearly are nearly men and won't actually break top 6, but equally and frustratingly we aren't far away. We perhaps could and should have won today and have been in that place before. It being tantalisingly just out of reach, being just not quite good enough is what gets us so frustrated. 

In a way I see a lot of parallels with Bowyer. The team isn't as good but we get more bang for our bucks out of this lot. If TM was just a bit cannier at signing players maybe we'd be edging it. As it is we're nearly men and I feel we are on the edge of another bust cycle. 

Could coronavirus be our rescue, with a lack of buying power for clubs keeping the squad together, giving TM another chance at promotion. Perhaps. Certainly bar Tosin - admittedly a huge miss - the replacements would struggle to be worse than what we have. That said TMs record in the transfer market has not been good so it's an anxious time. 

I guess my theory is we will see another Bowyer cycle through, then get through a few more of our agency's rejects. Hopefully we will get another Bowyer cycle through and third time lucky - this one has the nous to get us over the finish line. That we've come kinda close with the loons in charge, a substandard structure and imo mediocre management, means it is possible. 

It's the hope that kills you. 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, S8 & Blue said:

Well we’ll have to see about that.

Unlike seemingly everyone I really am able to change my opinion on available evidence.

Thought TM was a goner this time last year when we lost a billion games on the bounce, for example.

 

But this season, for me, we’ve been better in every department.

Of course there’s things I disagree with the managers decisions/recruitment/selections but that’s football innit.

 

Thought it was a good game today and I reckon I’m not alone in wanting to find a place to have a balanced discussion about who played well, about what happened in the game, what I think about a certain player, decision etc.

It’s just constant “Mowbray X,Y,Z is shit” on here.

Anyway, I’ve been banned before for trying to put up the egg cartons in this dying echo chamber.

I’ll leave it at that.

Agree with everything you have said. This forum has just turned into a Mowbray bashing forum now. It's got to the stage now were u genuinely believe people want us to get beat, so they can have another moan. I'm sick to death of the 12 million wasted on 2 forwards line as well. No manager gets every transfer rite. What about the 2 million spent on dack and arma. That compensates for the money spent on big Ben and gally

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1 minute ago, Roverinbelfast said:

Agree with everything you have said. This forum has just turned into a Mowbray bashing forum now. It's got to the stage now were u genuinely believe people want us to get beat, so they can have another moan. I'm sick to death of the 12 million wasted on 2 forwards line as well. No manager gets every transfer rite. What about the 2 million spent on dack and arma. That compensates for the money spent on big Ben and gally

They'll have cost more than that by now Armas fee was set to rise to 3 million alone.

two wrongs don't make a right and whilst it's true to say they never get it all right the critics for the 12 million is perfectly justified. Managers live and die by results and their big signings. The whole clubs financial health could rest on that and to look at it another way if they recoup that money from the sales of Dack & AA well we are no better off are we.

Only if they all click on the pitch are we better off.

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It’s just the same cycle. Is it any wonder crowds are dwindling?

LLL = Mowbray needs to go

LWD = He needs more time, he’s had injuries, yada yada

These two runs sum up Mowbray’s time here: steady away and then a dreadful run, a slight recovery and then steady away for a bit.

The only constant is that, no matter what, Mowbray will continue. Results don’t matter, performances don’t matter, recruitment doesn’t matter.

You end up with two choices: Pack it all in as there isn’t any ambition, or just go through the motions because you support Rovers (or at least the idea/history of Rovers) and as long as they put a team out you’ll watch.

The grim reality is that if you were a potential fan just joining the scene right now, you probably wouldn’t bother. I’m not even sure if we still have the hereditary effect (dad-to-lad) as a lot don’t care if their son/daughter “supports” City or Liverpool, nay they even buy them the kit!

Good days like today - let’s face it, nearly beating and not losing to the team joint top of the league is a good day - are undermined by defeats against the likes of Barnsley.

He has to go if we are to progress. Waiting until we are back on a downward trajectory is too late.

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Just now, Roverinbelfast said:

Agree with everything you have said. This forum has just turned into a Mowbray bashing forum now. It's got to the stage now were u genuinely believe people want us to get beat, so they can have another moan. I'm sick to death of the 12 million wasted on 2 forwards line as well. No manager gets every transfer rite. What about the 2 million spent on dack and arma. That compensates for the money spent on big Ben and gally

Not sure it does compensate for so many reasons. One is to do with resources and risk - if a 2 million signing doesn't work out, one portion of the budget has gone wrong. When 5-7 million is wasted that's your whole budget. In other words we could gamble in two or three £2 million ish signings and the risks are devolved and reduced by two thirds. The potential benefits are multiplied by three as well if all come off. As it is the lost opportunity costs of being able to buy a balanced squad on top of the flops of Gally and Ben is huge and something that has hurt us just as much as their non performances. 

There's also the issues of Armstrong costing more than you say and only having become very good in the last 6 months. Well worth persevering with and plenty of potential - and am loving his form - but equally let's not pretend we have had 3 years of excellent form out of him. Not criticising the move but just pointing out another reason why they don't balance out. 

Oh then there's the minor detail of the 12 million putting us in danger of FFP/allowing this to become an excuse for cutting the budget. So yeah on a host of fronts people are quite rightly concerned by the outlay on strikers, and it cannot simply be washed away with well Dack and Armstrong are good signings. 

More to the point what pees me off about your post is that Rovers fans genuinely want us to lose. Yeah right! I've yet to find a Rovers fan who wants us to lose. 

Criticising the manager is not the same as wanting the team to lose. Nor is not rating the manager. The two things are mutually exclusive and the idea that any Rovers fan would be gutted if we snuck into the playoffs and went up is horse manure. More like you can't cope with different opinions. It must be easier if you tell yourself those nasty critics want us to lose, but it just doesn't wash or ring true at all. 

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1 minute ago, tomphil said:

They'll have cost more than that by now Armas fee was set to rise to 3 million alone.

two wrongs don't make a right and whilst it's true to say they never get it all right the critics for the 12 million is perfectly justified. Managers live and die by results and their big signings. The whole clubs financial health could rest on that and to look at it another way if they recoup that money from the sales of Dack & AA well we are no better off are we.

Only if they all click on the pitch are we better off.

Let's just deal with facts. We paid just over 1 mill for arma. 2.5 mill if we get promoted. 

'the clubs financial health' that's just you guessing. The truth is nobody knows what finances we do or don't have. I don't even think mogga or waggot know never mind you. 

14 Mill all in for dack armo brereton and gally isn't bad. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Not sure it does compensate for so many reasons. One is to do with resources and risk - if a 2 million signing doesn't work out, one portion of the budget has gone wrong. When 5-7 million is wasted that's your whole budget. In other words we could gamble in two or three £2 million ish signings and the risks are devolved and reduced by two thirds. The potential benefits are multiplied by three as well if all come off. As it is the lost opportunity costs of being able to buy a balanced squad on top of the flops of Gally and Ben is huge and something that has hurt us just as much as their non performances. 

There's also the issues of Armstrong costing more than you say and only having become very good in the last 6 months. Well worth persevering with and plenty of potential - and am loving his form - but equally let's not pretend we have had 3 years of excellent form out of him. Not criticising the move but just pointing out another reason why they don't balance out. 

Oh then there's the minor detail of the 12 million putting us in danger of FFP/allowing this to become an excuse for cutting the budget. So yeah on a host of fronts people are quite rightly concerned by the outlay on strikers, and it cannot simply be washed away with well Dack and Armstrong are good signings. 

More to the point what pees me off about your post is that Rovers fans genuinely want us to lose. Yeah right! I've yet to find a Rovers fan who wants us to lose. 

Criticising the manager is not the same as wanting the team to lose. Nor is not rating the manager. The two things are mutually exclusive and the idea that any Rovers fan would be gutted if we snuck into the playoffs and went up is horse manure. More like you can't cope with different opinions. It must be easier if you tell yourself those nasty critics want us to lose, but it just doesn't wash or ring true at all. 

I take on board your comments and apart from your snidey remarks its well structured. But in my opinion there are people on this forum that enjoy having a huge rant when we loose. 

I gut into a dispute with someone on here at the start of the season who refused to watch a pre season game because Evans was playing. How stupid and petulant is that? 

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53 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

Thought we gave a good performance today. Pretty even 1st half really, all that separated the teams was a couple of decent Walton saves & a dodgy goal, though we were a bit toothless ourselves. Second half it looked like we could get steamrollered, but after a dodgy 10-15 mins the subs changed the game & from then we should've won.

So it feels like a defeat, not just due to the missed chances but the missed opportunities v Wigan & especially Barnsley. 

There's been a lot said about TM not wanting promotion a d / or not caring, but there's been plenty of evidence these last 2 games that's not the case (not that it should be needed).

There is clear progress from last season to this. We're a better footballing side, more fluent, less reliant on one individual. There's work to do, but it's reasonable to think we can get another 5 or 6 points from the last 3 games. If we do, that's a 10% improvement on last season, and that's without Dack for half of it. Same level of improvement again next season & were into the 70s.

Yes theres work to do, holes to fill & a bit of balance to find. But I recall at the start of this season many predicting a relegation scrap and we've never been anywhere near it. A few tweaks here & there, reduce individual errors & improve our points tally from winning positions by 20% and well be thereabouts next season.

This season was not playoffs or bust for Rovers. TM should be allowed further time to mould the squad, hopefully we keep our main men Lenihan, Travis, Arma & Dack.

It's not the worst thing in the world to keep Mowbray, he's got some plus points. But if we had a decent amount to invest you would look for someone better. The squad is all over the place and we wasted a huge amount of money on Gallagher and Brereton. He's signed some good quality - Armstrong and Dack principally - but his recruitment on the whole hasn't been of the standard to get promotion, and he's been lucky to get a few top players through the academy to help cover some major holes.

That said I think we are weeing with the willy we have so we have to hope Tony learns a few lessons and make a better fist of whatever budget is provided next time.

If he signs another wide striker, holding midfielder or number 10 I might weep but won't be surprised 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Roverinbelfast said:

Let's just deal with facts. We paid just over 1 mill for arma. 2.5 mill if we get promoted. 

'the clubs financial health' that's just you guessing. The truth is nobody knows what finances we do or don't have. I don't even think mogga or waggot know never mind you. 

14 Mill all in for dack armo brereton and gally isn't bad. 

 

Facts my friend seeing as you bring that up...

Armstrong 1.75 plus add ons rising to c 3 million, 4 year deal c 15k pwk

Steve Waggot himself has pointed out we are sailing close to the FFP wind and piss so i don't know where you get the guessing from.

If we have nothing to spend next season the 12 million on BB & Gallagher looks even worse business. Only if they have good seasons and it starts looking recoupable if needed can it be called - not bad.  A 14 million strike force in this lge should have you knocking on the door it should even cope with the loss of one of them.

I do agree some of the TM bashing goes overboard one or two of us try to balance it a bit....sometimes.

 

 

Edited by tomphil

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1 minute ago, Roverinbelfast said:

I take on board your comments and apart from your snidey remarks its well structured. But in my opinion there are people on this forum that enjoy having a huge rant when we loose. 

My remark is snidey?!? Implying Rovers fans want us to lose wins award for that. That said I shouldnt respond in kind, even if it does my nut in that people think they would want their team to lose? Seriously there's nothing good about losing for a Rovers fan. 

(Although I admit, if it were a midtable game with nothing to play for and by us losing we relegated Burnley or Manure, I admit, I would be rather philosophical about the loss...)

Quote

I gut into a dispute with someone on here at the start of the season who refused to watch a pre season game because Evans was playing. How stupid and petulant is that? 

Very. Or they were just bulling because they didn't want to go. That said it's a bit of an extrapolation from that to saying fans who criticise the team or manager want us to lose. 

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34 minutes ago, S8 & Blue said:

Well we’ll have to see about that.

Unlike seemingly everyone I really am able to change my opinion on available evidence.

Thought TM was a goner this time last year when we lost a billion games on the bounce, for example.

 

But this season, for me, we’ve been better in every department.

Of course there’s things I disagree with the managers decisions/recruitment/selections but that’s football innit.

 

Thought it was a good game today and I reckon I’m not alone in wanting to find a place to have a balanced discussion about who played well, about what happened in the game, what I think about a certain player, decision etc.

It’s just constant “Mowbray X,Y,Z is shit” on here.

Anyway, I’ve been banned before for trying to put up the egg cartons in this dying echo chamber.

I’ll leave it at that.

 

23 minutes ago, S8 & Blue said:

But there’s always “Oh we’ve been better without him” because we have to play differently than what TM wanted.

 

As if that is a valid criticism of the manager or squad.

We will see quite how much (if any, although the chance of 0 points id like to think is minimal) progress has been made at the end of the next 3 games. You mentioned that in your opinion that weve been better in every department. We have reached the points total of 60 that we achieved last season with 3 games to go. Last season you think back to Mulgrew creaking at CB, Smallwood a regular. And we will beat it by 0-9 points. Of course in addition to this, some of those improvements have been built on quick sand. Adarabioyo goes back, we have no senior keepers, Downings future is in the balance etc.

The lack of our best player for half a season is an unquestionable blow. But how much sympathy is lost when the manager has had 12 million to spend on 2 strikers who have not even covered part of the deficit of goals that we have lost?

Im really in between at the moment, swaying in my opinion. I acknowledge that a small progression will have been made this season in terms of a points haul. Weve never broken that top 6 barrier even for a few hours, and the idea of a slow build as others have pointed out is flawed. There are a number of tactical issues and curiosities that worry me, strikers on the wing, false 9s, and im just unsure about how we are going to set up going forward.

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Just now, Blue blood said:

My remark is snidey?!? Implying Rovers fans want us to lose wins award for that. That said I shouldnt respond in kind, even if it does my nut in that people think they would want their team to lose? Seriously there's nothing good about losing for a Rovers fan. 

(Although I admit, if it were a midtable game with nothing to play for and by us losing we relegated Burnley or Manure, I admit, I would be rather philosophical about the loss...)

Very. Or they were just bulling because they didn't want to go. That said it's a bit of an extrapolation from that to saying fans who criticise the team or manager want us to lose. 

Again fair points. You might not want to believe it, but I do. 'fans' on this forum enjoy us getting beat if it gives them an opportunity to kick the manager that's where we differ 

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Just now, roversfan99 said:

 

Im really in between at the moment, swaying in my opinion. I acknowledge that a small progression will have been made this season in terms of a points haul. Weve never broken that top 6 barrier even for a few hours, and the idea of a slow build as others have pointed out is flawed. There are a number of tactical issues and curiosities that worry me, strikers on the wing, false 9s, and im just unsure about how we are going to set up going forward.

This is what gets me most. The stuff which is very controllable but seems to make us weaker is most worrying. There is an element of risk in any signing and game plans don't work out but constantly starting under performing players, playing nunerous players out of position and chopping and changing the team and formation are all things that are obvious and known (especially after a few games) but seem to take forever to be acted upon. And if we can't get the basics like this right, then it is just giving us an uphill struggle. Plus if TM hasn't learned this by now then he never will. 

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Think Davenport is a ready made replacement for the outgoing Stew Downing. He looks class.

How he hasn't started games is beyond me.

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2 minutes ago, Roverinbelfast said:

Again fair points. You might not want to believe it, but I do. 'fans' on this forum enjoy us getting beat if it gives them an opportunity to kick the manager that's where we differ 

Nah, the only manager hated by Rovers fans was Kean. Even Coyle was acknowledged to have been given a crap deal even though he was utterly inept. 

I see plenty of criticism for the current manager, yes, but here's the thing: it's all for actual mistakes he has made. Persevering with under performing players, poor formations, playing players out of position, his poor transfers, his unbalanced squad, his criticisms in public on certain players. These are all legitimate concerns and genuine issues with TM. 

Now, there is an issue as to whether his positives should be mentioned more as well. And there is definitely an argument they should. We're not useless and neither is he because of where we are. But again, whether there should be more balance doesn't mean a) fans want us to lose or b) that there aren't some serious flaws in the manager. 

And for the record I am more annoyed with TM than Coyle or some of the other jokers we have appointed - because he isn't a complete duffer. Coyle for example was a write off, useless, so his uselessness was expected. TM has a bit about him which is why his basic mistakes and errors are all the more frustrating. I mean how can the guy who buys Dack think Bereton us worth 7 million? How can he outthink Cardiff and Bristol but not know how to beat a team in the bottom 3? How can he be so critical of Nayambe but let Bennett play despite being horrific. How can we play a formation specifically to get the best out of Dack, yet then stuck Gally on the wing? 

You see, TM is a paradox and all the more irritating for it.

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For someone who has preserved with under performing players and poor formations and plays players out of position, he has progressed us every season. 

Don't get me wrong certain things that he has done annoy me as well. Especially what happened with our keepers this season 

But he has done more good than bad and personality I stand behind him 100%. 

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7 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Think Davenport is a ready made replacement for the outgoing Stew Downing. He looks class.

How he hasn't started games is beyond me.

I think thats a huge call based on a few cameos. Seems full of energy and enthusiasm but no evidence from a very small number of minutes that he has either the calculated precision, intelligence and positional discipline. Definitely a player id like to see more of but not one ive jumped to any conclusions about just yet.

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A lot of people on this board get frustrated when we lose- I know I do. But It’s unfair to say those fans, “want Rovers to lose.”

Also, we can disagree on Mowbray staying or getting sacked, and still be fans of the club. But no matter what side of Mowbray you’re on, nobody can say the man doesn’t care if he loses. 
I had to say that. Having said it, the point won today was one of the hardest earned and most deserved point won of the season. Very proud of the manager, staff, and players.  

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Lets cut the angry mob with pitchforks wanting their own team that they pay money to watch narrative as well please. I dont doubt that a select few on one side struggle to see past their argument/opinion that Mowbray should go and that isnt necessarily healthy for debate, but in the same way there are a few on the other side of the fence who defend the manager regardless or dismiss any doubts about the manager based on attitudes towards the overall running of the club or the fact that we arent massively underachieving.

Mowbrays future is understandably a topic of great debate at the moment. We are amidst a run of 10 points in 10 games, below average form and we are at a juncture whereby the manager no longer has clear objectives (survival, promotion, stability) and where he has outlasted all other Championship managers, is trying to with mixed success transform us tactically and has a very mixed transfer record.

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Just now, roversfan99 said:

Lets cut the angry mob with pitchforks wanting their own team that they pay money to watch narrative as well please. I dont doubt that a select few on one side struggle to see past their argument/opinion that Mowbray should go and that isnt necessarily healthy for debate, but in the same way there are a few on the other side of the fence who defend the manager regardless or dismiss any doubts about the manager based on attitudes towards the overall running of the club or the fact that we arent massively underachieving.

Mowbrays future is understandably a topic of great debate at the moment. We are amidst a run of 10 points in 10 games, below average form and we are at a juncture whereby the manager no longer has clear objectives (survival, promotion, stability) and where he has outlasted all other Championship managers, is trying to with mixed success transform us tactically and has a very mixed transfer record.

Very good post. I'll hold my hands up and say that at one stage this season I wanted shot of the manager, because we were playing so poorly and as previously said the keeper situation really annoys me. But he has turned it round and I'm glad he didn't get the boot. 

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