The Sun - And Its Pile Of **** Apology.

[1864roverite]

then try reading the accounts of the people who were at the Bradford tragedy, that will really hit home.

I am not saying that it is in anyway "worse" or "better" than hillsborough but they are both real life events that have happened.

Human error, human behaviour and bad luck ALL played their horrible parts in both incidents.

we can take every single sporting tragedy back to Ibrox and beyond and it is all the same.

this subject should be closed NOW

[Paul]

this subject should be closed NOW

Why?

[thenodrog]

Tripe, tripe and utter tripe. That is one of the worst post I have ever read on this message board made worse by the fact that someone who is supposedly intelligent posted it.

How on earth can you compare it to WWII. They were going to a football match FFS. The young men & women who gave there lives for their country in the war may just have had inkling of the danger that awaited them. What with the guns and bombs and stuff like that. These people were just off to support their team.

Whoever said I was supposedly intelligent?

Anyway I might not have made it totally clear MB but (and not wanting to decry in any way the loss of servicemens lives) if you read it again you should find that I was actually meaning the far greater loss of innocent civilian lives due to constant German bombing of the city of Liverpool.

You harp on about justice! Well what justified that eh? Justice is not obligatory, loads of injustices occur every day all over the world. Whatever, its all forgotten now and the Germans are our respected partners within the eu.

Anyway what do you want to happen MB? Do you think that nailing some (probably guilt ridden) Police chief to the mast and doling out millions in compensation will bring anybody back to life? Cos I dont. I dont think that it's justice that you really want or care about, its really vengeance isn't it?

Like the innocent children / teenagers / men and women blown to smithereens in their homes time heals all wounds if it's allowed to and it's about time the Hillsborough tragedy was laid to rest.

[1864roverite]

coz

everyone has different views, everyone begs to differ and more importantly people who have never really had opportunities to read articles other than what has appeared in the media know very little of what actually happened on that fateful day.

thats why

[1864roverite]

and yes I agree totally with TND

the horrid World War losses are far bigger a tragedy than any sporting event losses.

[Manchester Blue]

Well if people look hard enough it's not difficult to find more accurate accounts. Try reading Hillsborugh - The Truth by Phil Scraton. It's frightening the lengths that the police went to cover up statements, hide evidence and basically obstruct any enquiry.

Or the Judge who decided that 3.15 was a cut off and no evidence after that could be considered. There are literally hundreds more incidents from this day and afterwards of injustices that have been carried out and never redressed.

You don't have to take all your information from the papers. Vengeance has got sod all to do with it TND. Justice is all that is asked and that has never been gained so far.

[Manchester Blue]

and yes I agree totally with TND

the horrid World War losses are far bigger a tragedy than any sporting event losses.

You have just answered your point there. Obviously the World War and any war are horrific, they can't be anything else but they are wars and as such deaths are a consequence.

You may well be able to dismiss 96 deaths at a 'sporting event' but I can't, it may be convenient to blame it on ticket touts but we know the real cause of the disaster. 96 people shouldn't die going to a football match.

[kingalan]

Tripe, tripe and utter tripe.  That is one of the worst post I have ever read on this message board made worse by the fact that someone who is supposedly intelligent posted it. 

How on earth can you compare it to WWII.  They were going to a football match FFS.  The young men & women who gave there lives for their country in the war may just have had inkling of the danger that awaited them.  What with the guns and bombs and stuff like that.  These people were just off to support their team. 

Whoever said I was supposedly intelligent?

Anyway I might not have made it totally clear MB but (and not wanting to decry in any way the loss of servicemens lives) if you read it again you should find that I was actually meaning the far greater loss of innocent civilian lives due to constant German bombing of the city of Liverpool.

You harp on about justice! Well what justified that eh? Justice is not obligatory, loads of injustices occur every day all over the world. Whatever, its all forgotten now and the Germans are our respected partners within the eu.

Anyway what do you want to happen MB? Do you think that nailing some (probably guilt ridden) Police chief to the mast and doling out millions in compensation will bring anybody back to life? Cos I dont. I dont think that it's justice that you really want or care about, its really vengeance isn't it?

Like the innocent children / teenagers / men and women blown to smithereens in their homes time heals all wounds if it's allowed to and it's about time the Hillsborough tragedy was laid to rest.

Trying to compare the Hillsborough tragedy to the loss of lives in WW2. Christ, I've heard it all now.

Get the man a spade because that's one big hole he's dug himself.

[Scotty]

coz

everyone has different views, everyone begs to differ and more importantly people who have never really had opportunities to read articles other than what has appeared in the media know very little of what actually happened on that fateful day.

thats why

From reading your posts on this thread and other similar ones in the past it's clear that you don't have a clue what happened that day. I assume the articles you mention are police in-house articles, and are therefore totally independant and totally factual, I don't think.

I understand why you're trying to deflect the blame away from the South Yorkshire police but you're wrong.

[1864roverite]

oh come on MB

I could never dismiss such a tragedy, and even greater I could never support anyone who did.

The whole sorry incident, including the saturday afternoon, the subsequent media attention, the funerals and the court cases must have been horrendous for families involved.

The same for Bradford, the same for Ibrox and the same for Heysel.

There is no doubt the court case could have been handled better, I dont subscribe to the idea that the judge would not allow any evidence after a time cut off point as that is most definately not within his remit. I would suggest the only reason why it was not allowed would have been that it failed to be served on the prosecution and/or defence within the statutory time limits.

As a sports fan I took to heart what happened in every sporting tragedy in my lifetime, it is the way of a real sporting fan anyone else I am sure would feel the same..

Life has its tragedies along the way but like others have said time does heal. It appears in this aprticular scenario - the Hilsborough tragedy - some people will never let it go. I dont hear Heysel being harped on about, I dont hear Bradford or Ibrox being harped about.

now that should surely tell you one thing.

IMO there is clearly ONE thing missing from the whole sorry argument, a third party that has to this date never been brought to the notice of the public.

[thenodrog]

Trying to compare the Hillsborough tragedy to the loss of lives in WW2. Christ, I've heard it all now.

Get the man a spade because that's one big hole he's dug himself.

And your point is?

btw why would I want a spade AFTER I've dug a hole your majesty?

[1864roverite]

scotty your wrong on that. I would be the first to point out any errors if I saw them.

I have a good idea as to actual time events of that day even though I was over the other side of the Pennines.

I am not pro police on this matter.

I would love to see someone brought to justice for the deaths of those fans.

I would love to see the full enquiry brought out into the public.

so please understand my point of view on this. Someone else as well as the Police Chief has to shoulder some of the blame. He should not be the scapegoat in this.

[Manchester Blue]

I agree with you about the Heysel thing but so do many Liverpool fans so I think that's unfair. A lot of the reaons for that were the crumbling stadium, poor segregation and tickets being either sold to anyone or not even needed.

Bradford was obviously a tragedy and I don't ignore it but many of the issues that arose from Hillsborough didn't occur there.

As for Ibrox well again same applies, incidentally when reading the book I mentioned earlier I discovered that 33 people died and over 500 were injured at Burnden Park at an FA cup match. The home office enquiry criticised the police and ground officials for not realising what was happening and not acting quickly enough.

All tragedies that shouldn't have happened but for some reason the Hillsborough one is still a prickly issue. Largely for the reasons I have mentioned.

Finally I would ask if you still think ticket touts are to blame. How many people died at Ewood when we played Celtic, or at the Champions League final when Man U played Barcelona. There were large numbers of people getting in with forgeries then but the police did what they are paid to do and dealt with it. You got some angry fans but better than dead ones.

[1864roverite]

com on MB that last point is totally irrelavent is it not ?

We are now in 2004 not 1986.

There are still people being killed at sporting events be it tragedy or murder, leeds fans will testify to that as will English supporters in Portugal. African fans have died in crowd rushes not too far ago when a ground was overcrowded.

Sporting events are much better organised and people are better trained, facilities are far better and believe it or not some lessons have been learned and some haven't.

On that fateful day a whole range of human errors as well as an old stand conspired together with the end result that 96 persons died.

there is not ONE person responsible for the event and if you read every survey on the internet sites for the hillsborough tragedy you will not find ONE that goes 100 percent against anyone be it the liverpool fans or the south yorks bobbies.

It was sad and will always be but IMO its time to let it lie

[broadsword]

Life has its tragedies along the way but like others have said time does heal. It appears in this aprticular scenario - the Hilsborough tragedy - some people will never let it go.

Perhaps they'll let it go once they receive justice?

I wouldn't like to be the one who tells them face-to-face: "Come on chaps, it's been fifteen years. I know you've been messed about by the courts, and perhaps no-one's actually said 'sorry', but don't you think it's getting a bit boring now?"

As for these daft "there were greater miscarriages during the war" arguments, the mind boggles. Is that the new yardstick for deciding whether to prosecute now? "Drink driver killed a whole family, no carpet bombing involved, OK sarge, I'll let him go".

Banonkers!

[Hasta]

then try reading the accounts of the people who were at the Bradford tragedy, that will really hit home.

I am not saying that it is in anyway "worse" or "better" than hillsborough but they are both real life events that have happened.

They may well hit home harder. And if someone posted an account from bradford on here I would read that too. I wouldn't say take it off a Rovers message board which is the point I was trying to make.

btw why would I want a spade AFTER I've dug a hole your majesty?

[American]

there is not ONE person responsible for the event and if you read every survey on the internet sites for the hillsborough tragedy you will not find ONE that goes 100 percent against anyone be it the liverpool fans or the south yorks bobbies.

It was sad and will always be but IMO its time to let it lie

Reading what people have been saying, there isn't one person to blame, there is one newspaper to blame for the tragedy....

[Manchester Blue]

If that's the impression you've got then i'd suggest you read it again.

[American]

Everything I read, that's the only group that vocally gets blamed anymore, which is my point.

[Manchester Blue]

Then you can't have read the thread at all and that's my point.

Edited July 11, 2004 by Manchester Blue

[American]

Yes, but what is the main point of the original post, and other past posts on the topic? That the Sun is to blame for what happened and they should be punished. Everytime you see/hear headlines about the tragedy, it's about the Sun, not about any other parties who truly were to blame.

If we boycotted every newspaper we read that printed what they thought at the time was true and ended up being lies, there would be no more papers.

The Sun is being made a scapegoat for what happened.

[Lathund]

Uhm NOONE is blaming sun for Hillsborough. They're simply very upset (and rightly so) about their coverage of the incident. Surely you can't have missed the point so gravely unintentionally?

And I don't think they believed what they wrote was true. That's the whole point... had they recieved false reports about it, wrote the story and then apologized right when it turned out it was false things would've been different. Yes people would still be upset, but then it would've been a mistake and not simply an attempt to sell more copies.

That being said, I'm personally boycotting every tabloid in every country. Regardless of whether they've been involved in an incident like this or not.

[Manchester Blue]

Nonsense not only have you missed the whole point of the thread but you clearly have no understanding of it. The Sun has never ever been blamed for what happened at Hillsborough and never could be. It similarly hasn't been made a scapegoat either. Read this article, it may give you an understanding of why the Sun is so loathed. Sadly it may not either.

The HJC is only in such a minor way anything to do with the Sun it is an insult to all the hardworking people who run the campaign and to the memory of those lost to suggest otherwise.

I ask you to imagine if you had gone through what they had and then 4 days later wake up and read a headline like that, with stories saying you had robbed your dying friends, attacked and urinated on the police. Could you then come back and post stupid throwaway comments?

[thenodrog]

As for these daft "there were greater miscarriages during the war" arguments, the mind boggles.

Your flippant retort does you no credit Bryan. Just because it happened before your life began should not permit you to trivialise the deaths of so many innocent civilians. You appear to be deliberately missing the point of my comparison. It's all very nearly past living memory (as one day Hillsborough will also be) but it's incredible that you don't think that there were no greater miscarriages of justice in the war?

Banonkers indeed.

[broadsword]

I haven't trivialised it at all.

You don't appear to have understood my post, but never mind.