Getting fed up with those on here moaning about ‘Ben bashing’ or whatever they’re calling it. It’s been said a million times over already, so it really shouldn’t need saying again, but it’s not what this is about. It’s because we have so many glaring weaknesses in our team that we shouldn’t have shelled out £7 million on potential. That’s the crux of it. If we had a bottomless pit I’m sure we’d all be thrilled with bringing in a young lad who could one day make a name for himself. As it stands, and at no fault of Ben’s, this is looking to be a very baffling and costly signing.

All this newly promoted carp is getting a bit tiresome now we spent ONE yes ONE season in league 1 not four or five like some do we also had the biggest budget by some way. We are where we are right now and where we should and maybe would have been had the dark forces not reared their ugly heads in the shape of I have been stopped from posting this by moderators. Coyle. This squad has bags of Championship experience and players capable of at least treading water In it so time to put that excuse aside we've proven already we can compete the trick is now pushing it on not just settling for mediocre because it's all some like to expect. Have a go, get some lively players in and play them !

This will be lapped up by half the messageboard but its peddling a load of old rubbish that isnt true. Most of my friends believe we are heading in the right direction with exactly the right manager at the helm - so do most of the people on this messageboard, contrary to what some would suggest, very, very few people (Mercer and jim i think are the only 2 I know who have insinuated it) that arent happy with Mowbray in charge. Very much the minority. I was very happy that the owners signed Mowbray up on a long term contract - again, see above, so are the majority on here. impressed with some of the football that we are trying to play - in terms of results, ie the important part, we are about where we should be, and Mowbray has done a good job. Aesthetically, less so, we are very direct, play the most long balls in the league and often rely on set pieces to score. there are players who will gradually be replaced - Mowbray said that himself last month - agree that it needs to happen, some feel that perhaps it is happening too slowly in terms of too much loyalty afforded to the likes of Smallwood and Armstrong, with some of his own signings (Rothwell, Palmer, Rodwell, Brereton) yet to be consistently incorporated into his team. Lets not go down the route of perceiving criticism of certain aspects to be an overall unhappiness with Mowbray or the direction that the club is going in under him.

That's why there is a furore.

Mid table team with a mid table manager which is where I see us for next few seasons with Tony as manager. There will come a point we will need to take a gamble where we either give mowbray a significant war chest to strengthen squad to get rid of the Williams and Smallwoods of the team but allow for a mowbray dropabollock as we have seen with the breretons, gladwins, Hart, Samuel but hoping a pulls a few more dacks out that or we gamble with a change in the manager to pull us up to the upper echos of the league. If venkys do neither it could be a rather frustrating few seasons ahead

Can we stop trying to pinpoint one player as the reason we dropped points yesterday. Blaming ‘individual errors’ is a lazy excuse used by managers and fans and spectators lap it up. If you have a look on any Birmingham message board, I expect there is quite a bit of talk about how they gave themselves a mountain to climb thanks to their centre half losing Graham, and there full back letting Armstrong get away from him and then ball watching. Fact of the matter is we are struggling to see games out. It’s becoming a pattern. It’s not Brereton or Raya’s fault - we need to be better collectively over 90 minutes. The system we employ plays to the strengths of Graham and Dack to the extent where we rely on them very heavily. It seems to, in Mowbray’s mind at least, necessitate playing Evans and Smallwood, both of whom I believe we have better options than but we end up playing better players out of position. It exposes our full backs to be doubled up on, and restricts the amount of balls we put into the box from wide positions. We do tend to look lost without Graham on the pitch, and if/when Dack goes, Mowbray may well have to have a rethink.

Sadly you take things very literally Chris. I’m not saying bring back Souness - I’m saying someone like him. I must have missed where Grealish has been sold for £40m. According to transfermarkt nobody has paid a fee for him ever. You are using another dreamland transfer to justify another. Expectations of how well we should be doing have to change with time. Much like a result can be accepted “on paper” and “I’d have taken that before the game”, I’m looking for a manager who can take opportunities. When we go 1-0 down and we bring off a striker to bring on a defender; when we play against 10 men and we don’t kick on - or even look like doing; when we are 2-0 up and coasting and we replace our striker for an experiment and lose points within minutes. On paper, midtable will be a reasonable outcome for the season. However, when the league takes shape and we are a couple of wins off the play-offs then poor decisions will come under scrutiny. To accept mediocrity and missed opportunities because “well, nobody expected any better” is to promote mediocrity.

You can bet your house that barring injuries Evans and Smallwood will start against Norwich.

You're right, you two do have circular discussions with each other. It's because one of you fails to see or at least reply adequately to the key points the other one makes. Hint: it's not him.

The way I see it is Mowbray knows the score at this level, he knows where we are lacking and the type of player we need to improve. I just do not see him wanting to spend 7 million of precious funds on an unproven teenager. How this transfer came about is a mystery to me. Is it because Venky’s will only release cash for young English talent, i.e sell on potential? This summer’s transfers suggest so. Was it a case of spend it on BB or lose it? If that’s the case and ‘there’s more where that came from’, then fine, I suppose. But 7 million on 2/3 proven pros could have seen us right up there in a wide open league, instead we’ve bought ‘potential’, that yes, sometimes works out a treat, but often these lads just don’t kick on like people hoped. It is a hell of a gamble for the modern day BRFC, so lets hope it’s the former for our and this ‘project’s’ sake.

There won't be any change in the way we play until Smallwood and Evans are split up by Reed in the centre of midfield, Rothwell is given a run and some proper wingers are signed. At the moment there is no sign of Evans and Smallwood being split up or Rothwell playing or playing some proper wingers. So we are stuck with out of position wingers meaning we have no width and two centre midfielders that won't or can't pass or move forward.

And for a team who nearly always plays two stoppers In midfield we don't half concede a lot of goals it was the same under GB.

Dack looks lost without Graham on the pitch IMO

I never mentioned if he were injured - you're making it up again. A tired Graham is better than no Graham on the pitch - look what happens when he goes off. Yesterday was another example. The best manager at Ewood since Hughes is Sam Allardyce. No one else gets near.

You are talking far too much sense here Biz. You must try harder to get into the gloom and doom mood. I totally agree with much of what you say. Far from awful, I've really enjoyed most of the games this season and been impressed with some of the football that we are trying to play. Of course, there are players who will gradually be replaced - Mowbray said that himself last month. Most of my friends believe we are heading in the right direction with exactly the right manager at the helm and have enjoyed their football again over the last eighteen months or so. There is a positive vibe about the club - something that has been missing for a long time. I was very happy that the owners signed Mowbray up on a long term contract as it gives him the time to build the club up from the foundations. At long last the manager, players, club officials and owners are finally on the same page, along with the majority of the fanbase. Long may it continue

How many newly promoted Championship clubs can you name that have spent £7 million on a player that by mid December hasn't started a game. If we can afford to spend £7 Million on a sub who may develop then perhaps we ought to be aiming for the play offs.

Mowbray isn't the man to take us forward in my opinion. You have to be a tough nut in he warnock mould or a very good coach to get out of this division and Mowbray is neither. Where is the evidence he can solve the continuing defensive weakness ? Why can't he see graham has to stay on the field even if he is tired? Then there's the brereton farce and the poor summer transfer window. So many question marks over the manager I don't see why you have such blind faith in him

It's all very well talking about it but there is no sign of it on the pitch

I agree with your point that the best defence is to be playing in your opponents half buts that's not so easy when you're playing with a back six.

Watching the games and Listening to TM , it was fairly easy to work out that we would be prioritising a striker. CF is arguably the most important position in the team the only position we dont have nearly enough cover. Every good team has ample mainline options plus cover. Whichever way you look at it the manager doesn’t trust BB to do that job yet. Armstrong and Dack have been largely ineffective in that role and so as a manager he must be petrified of Graham getting injured. Every other position / player is open to being replaced by better quality additions and some are needed more than others but I couldn’t see past a striker two weeks ago and I still can’t. Prediction of what they’ll do / try to do remains: 1) Striker on loan (experience in Champ) 2) Reed - Perm 3) Chapman - loan to perm or perm As well as BB made perm. Can see Palmer return plus some loans for the likes of Travis and Nuttall. Note - A fully fit Davenport will be like a new signing. Highly rated at City and now at Rovers. Played most of his competitive games in the Champ last season and could easily have a ‘Reed’ like impact. I can see Reed, Travis and Davenport being medium to long term replacements for Smallwood and and Evans in the first Xl

You know what’s equally as frustrating and leads to me getting fed up? The idea that buying players is akin to a supermarket... How much would you sell Lenihan or Nyambe for? Take that figure and double it for any similar aged but prem experienced players. Then look at someone like Graham, and find an effective similar replacement on reasonable wages under 25. What would be the cost of a lightning quick and quality final ball winger to be established in this division? All those “glaring” weaknesses aren’t going to be covered by 7m. Hopegully, if we do sign more players, particularly younger- they’ll be given more time than Brererton has been, before they’re labelled a “baffling clanger”

I’d say up top is a problem area though?

Mowbray has to have a very good window in January. The defence/GK (specifically individual errors) are the positions costing us goals at an alarming rate. There is very little quality competition/cover in any position back there so that needs to be a priority. We need to score 3 to win most weeks recently, and sometimes 4 and 5. If Mowbray thinks this isn't a massive issue and is 'just where we are' then he's in the wrong job. He has some tough decisions to make. Re the GK, does Mogga bring someone else in like he wanted to in summer or does he stick with Raya and hope that one day he will mature and stop costing us games? Same with Lenny and Nyambe. Bell is just not worth persevering with IMO, he's a liability and for a defender his concentration is appalling. Williams is not having a great season either. Mulgrew is not what I'd call a solid defender either. We basically have 4 defenders and the GK capable of giving goals away every week through avoidable individual errors and/or rank bad defending. Lunacy. A left-winger must surely also be a priority. And back-up for DG. The £7m paid for BB looks crazier every day...

What does Brereton offer that Nuttall doesn’t?

Not that one about looking good in training again----please!! I thought that had disappeared with Anderson's lad.

The logic of putting him on was correct by Mowbray. Two up and seemingly comfortable with no real pressure on him. The basics weren't even there. Whether it's the pressure of the fee, something in his head or anything else but clearly the lad has a big problem. I'm not attaching any blame to him for the debacle of the last 25 minutes but in the bigger picture Brereton is becoming a real worry and potentially an Albatross around Mowbrays neck.

How the heck are we affording Maupay or Adams?

Very rare for any club to go for a wholesale rebuild in January. Surely we should be looking at players who will make a difference turning draws into wins? I am concerned our only two Premier League class players- Dack and Reed- could both leave. We will look extremely ordinary without them.

I’m going to take the positives from the last 2 games, we should have had 6 points and were for the majority of the games the better team. That is promising against 2 of the better /form teams in the league. Just need to cut out the moments of madness and close out games. A decent left back and a striker who can hold the ball up are needed.

It also adds weight to the argument that perhaps, at this point in our development as a team under Mowbray, that spending such a large sum on a player unable to provide competition was not a wise idea.

It did, in that Graham made way for him. Obviously the sub was not the main reason (forced or otherwise) for our collapse but you are naive to suggest that it had no impact on the game. Brereton didnt contribute positively. Graham was our best player pre-substitution. Uncharacteristically missing the point. Rayas idiocy was undoubtedly the trigger and the catalyst for 2 dropped points, but it was 2 nil at that time, why the total collapse? And more importantly, its far from the first time its happened! Every time it does you are closed minded, you investigate what caused it on the day, mistake or whatever, oblivious to the theme that theres on overall problem occurring, we keep throwing away points from favourable positions! It is not the sign of an efficient, fully functioning side. And youve put it down to a fluke goal, a bad ref decision, an individual error, whatever it is, and you might be right on them individual days, but totally naive to the overall issue. We are 22 games in. In that, we threw 2 points away at Ipswich, we got hammered from a winning position at Bristol City, we threw away 2 points at home to Villa, we threw 2 points away to Forest, we lost from a winning position at Swansea, we threw away 2 points against a 10 man Boro and again we threw away 2 points today. And almost topping all of these off, we were a penalty hitting the crossbar away from throwing a way a 3-0 lead from our best 80 minutes of the season. 16 points that we have thrown away, compared to 31 that we have. Is it reasonable to expect all of them to have been kept? No. But is that a worryingly high amount of points thrown away? Definitely. Is it fitness, is it psychological, is it tactical, is it a lack of quality, probably a bit of everything but it needs addressing. Brereton will continue to be a massive talking point due to his price tag, whether you like it or not. When he came on today he was poor, whereas Graham again was superb. On Graham youve backed yourself into a corner constantly writing him off and even last week contesting my claim that hes been easily one of our star performers this season. People acknowledge that hes yet to start, and we are basing it on sub appearances, but that all adds to the mystery.

Some astute points already made. Agree with bigdog –most frustrating game this season. Highly annoying and Mogga’s interview, typically dour but sensible, didn’t help improve feelings in my household. Young side, we’ve just come up and so on –well yes, and before the start of the season I would have been happy with mid-table but some of the positions we find ourselves in with these games, it doesn’t really require genius to manage a game for a better result. The BlueNoses looked dispirited and the worst side I’ve seen here this season –no pressing of the ball, no urgency and some aimless long punts to little effect. So 2-0 up, without doing anything special in appalling conditions and on 76 mins Raya goes crackers rushing out for a ball and gives away a pen. Gardner (who galvanised them a little when he came on before that) duly converts. So 13 mins to survive by intelligent game management. Nah. They now have a little belief (something not present for the previous 79 mins). On 80 mins, can’t remember exactly how but we lose the ball, Gardner picks it up centrally and I lean over to wife and have time to say 3 times “he’s going to slot it inside Nyambe.” All Ryan has to do is make sure that his man is not going to get the ball –he seems to get mesmerised in no man’s land, the ball is duly slotted inside him and they score. 2-2. Cue head shaking from players and fans’ ire. So:- Where is the backbone when you need it? The leadership? The game management? The grit? At 2-0 nil up you work just as hard if not harder-didn’t happen. Lazy passing, not working as a unit. Agreed on the new personnel required –odd that such a large sum was used on a player who neither plays, or plays out of positon or doesn’t seem that effective On Graham –why should a team fall apart defensively when he goes off? Doesn’t account for a stupid goalie rush of blood and brainless right back defending. Agree that it was inevitable that his clockwork/fitness would run down in games and a replacement was necessary. Not sure Brereton is the answer. Looked like a floppy schoolboy to me today but it wasn’t his fault we drew Armstrong scored but just doesn’t seem interested to me-sulking because he is on the wing? Reed looked busy and lively and at it-effective centrally I would have thought Tony’s beloved 4231. No issue with it as such but strange that what is effectively a back 6 can leak so many goals. Perhaps that just comes down to players and ability. What is absolutely striking to me is the paucity of flair going forward. You could argue that today, in appalling conditions, that it didn’t really matter and was less of an issue and especially when you go 2-0 up. Perhaps that is more for another time, when we are drawing and can’t open a side up. One other thing –Raya cost us the game? Nope. He gave them some hope and it was 2-1 with 13 to go. That’s when you need the leadership and grit I mentioned above from all your players. Didn’t see it and the inevitable happened.

Mowbray did pick them and they got us into a comfortable 2-0 lead with 15 mins left to play. If these players were as bad as some on here are making out then surely that would never have happened - we should be getting rolled over week in week out if you believed the pundits on here, since we have no decent full backs, no proper wingers, no central midfield, no creativity going forward, no commanding centrehalf - it's a miracle that we not 20 points adrift at the foot of the table really ? Raya cost us two points today - not Mowbray, not Brereton, not a mentality of sitting back or anything else. It was a brainfart moment from the goalkeeper which gifted them a way back into a game that was all but won up to that point. And if anyone thinks that Mowbray didn't read him the riot act after the game then they obviously don't sit as close behind him as we do - he was absolutely livid on the touchline in that second half

In fairness there were at least two defenders in front of him. One of them blocked his shot. It's baffling to me that he is being singled out. He had a few decent touches and I don't recall him doing anything bad. We looked a combination of lazy and nervous at 2-0 up. Lenihan played one absolutely shocking pass to Mulgrew. Now if Brereton did that, there would be uproar on here. Nyambe and Bell lost the ball a number of times, they were also caught out of position. People need to ask themselves why are they singling Brereton out. It seems some fans on here focus on a particular scapegoat and regardless of what they do, they will always be blackened. You could list out the players who fell into that category over the years.

I don't think I've ever been as cold and uncomfortable watching a game as I was yesterday but when Armstrong scored an excellent second goal I consoled myself witth the thought that "Oh well at least we've got the three points." Should've known better and I am now thoroughly hacked off with this group of players after in consecutive games watching them fail to draw with ten men over 70 mins then failing to win after taking a two goal lead at home. It's nothing new and indeed we would have squandered a three goal lead at Stoke had they not missed a penalty. I don't know what it is but we're lacking a certain something which is stopping us from getting over the line in games be it bottle, concentration, panic, desire or whatever. Whatever it is it's up to Mowbray to sort it out because the failing is very reminiscent of the season under Coyle and it could still be a bit of a slog to safety if we continue to fold like a deck of cards whenever we're put under a bit of pressure.

Bell was bloody awful yesterday. We have a conundrum around certain players. Sign a big nasty **** in Jan to play CB and move Mulgrew to LB (not fancy wing back or whatever Tinker Tony tries to play). Adds height to the back line and still there for set pieces.

Aspiration and ambition I can understand but expectation isn’t going to change in 3 months, 2 transfers, even a run undefeated. I also cannot agree with, the notion we’ve played largely awful! I cant state that enough. We are marginally away from being a top 6 team. That’s with some limited players and difficult fixtures. Arguably only certain decisions and mistakes away from being in the play offs, as the drop points from winning positions suggests. The master plan for me seems obvious too. Build a young squad with room to improve, add the right players when they become available. Get an identity back, a team with spirit and fight that the town can be proud of. Tony has already largely achieved that - in 18 months. I’m quite sure the legend Bobby Robson would’ve seen the job TM has done and give him the credit you cannot afford him. Good football “people” like Gary and TM are the sole reason we aren’t languishing in the fourth tier or worse after the damage done by those “managers” who could never be described as “proper football men” messers Kean and Coyle. They aren’t dining out on an image, they’re dining out on our clubs money via contract pay outs.

I think with any young player the best thing a manager can do is show faith in them. Whose to say Brereton wouldn't step up if he knew he would be given a run of games. Experience brings a consistently that very few younger players can match. The team as a squad is in a very peculiar situation in that we have a number of flair/lively players who could do well in this league but don't get game time. I think players such as Smallwood, Lenihan, Armstrong have been given more than enough game time to get consistency and yet they still aren't delivering. What would be everyone's best team and formation to play with this squad? Personally I think the following could work. Raya Nyambe Downing Mulgrew Williams Rothwell Evans Reed Dack Graham Brereton When you look at the squad we have the four most important players down the middle I think would get in or around the first eleven of any team in this league in Mulgrew, Reed, Dack and Graham. We don't have anyone capable of playing on the wing so we might as well not play wingers if no one can make it work. Let the fallbacks get up as they can't defend anyway. Dack will always have to play as he's the best player but he can be invisible when things don't go well resulting in a 10 vs 11 type of game. I think that eventually when he does go I could see Rothwell being a different kind of replacement for him with a change in formation. I do think he will be sold in the summer by pushing through a move. He did the same at Gillingham so if a team further up comes in I don't have much hope for loyalty. I don't think this team should accept bottom half as it's better individually then most teams in the bottom half. Would people accept Dack leaving if it meant a change of formation and four quality additions to the team? Could see a line up next year off. Raya Nyambe New Mulgrew Williams Reed New Rothwell New Graham/Brereton New I do think a commanding centre back could pull both Nyambe and Williams up a level or two. Which is why I'd peruse with them. But if money was left over. A new left back would be a position to look at as well. Think a centre back to lead the team at the back who loves defending and a centre midfielder who is a class above most in the league would more than cover for Dack if two wingers where added as well. I'd rather Dack was kept and added to any new signings though.

what a stupid and daft comment to make Jim. Mowbray signed a new contract 2 weeks ago. Should really try reading Mowbray's comments about how he is going to grow the club/playing staff wise over the coming years. The owners have and its time fans like yourself do instead of pointless cheap comments/digs we were doing fine until Raya's mistake But with Brereton on Rovers looked very comfortable and was cruising to easy 2 nil win at least. Birmingham were creating nothing second half until Raya's mistake. simple as end of story. we were passing it to feet and look confident. then as soon as we conceded we back to hopeless long balls and stop playing the game plan that get us 2 nil up

It plays a part that we don’t have anyone else of his ilk, but the team overall has to cut out silly mistakes. Villa at home for example. 1-0, not sure if Graham went off or not but a needless freekick and a dodgy wall later - 2 points dropped.

I don’t think it’s that easy B.B. For example, did Britt Assombalonga sign for a championship team because they offered more wages than Burnley offered him? I don’t think we are in a position to offer huge wages AND 7m for someone, and the Bamford’s/Assombolonga’s who are proven at this level cost that and the weekly wage. Gestede would be a shout for me as that target man— but realistically he’s probably too highly paid after stints in the prem with villa and Boro.

Dack on his way in Jan? Blackburn Rovers‏Verified account @Rovers 18m18 minutes ago More #Bradvent get free Dack 23 shirt printing on all 18/19 replica shirts bought today in store and online at http://Roverstore.co.uk

Fantasy.

It would be nice to hear Tony Mowbray say we have a problem with chucking leads away - and it will be dealt with. Rather than the "maybe this is just where we are at" interview he gave to Radio Lancs.

A continuing saga. Too many drawn games, points thrown away, inability to see out matches when leading, a lack of ruthlessness to get the job done, because the same defensive frailties are apparent every week and Mowbray doesn't have a clue how to address them. This isn't a great division and a playoff place would surely be attainable with a manager with more nous. The club at present is going nowhere under Mowbray.

Players need games for a variety of reasons and Brereton has has very little game time this season. His sharpness, match fitness and probably confidence will inevitably suffer as a result. I don't see any harm at all in giving him a few midweek outings along with several others who just aren't getting enough minutes on the pitch.

I would say there is a bigger gap between League 1 and the championship, than between the championship and Premier league

I genuinely don't think this guy will ever reach his full potential. His body shape, lifestyle, fame chasing and general lack of dedication (and IQ) will, in my opinion, be his downfall sooner rather than later (I have the feeling he'll end up injury prone, much like Dunn did). If we sell him for more than £20m, he'll never fetch anywhere near that again. However, he undoubtedly still has a lot to offer us in the immediate present/ future. I hink we need to sell him whilst his stock is high, but try to get every last bit of worth out of him first. My instinct says the summer would be the best time to get shut, but time will tell.

Tbf most people do, it's literally only a few posters who don't.