1 minute ago, tomphil said:

Didn't JW say the total take from tickets at Ewood was about £13 per head in the days of decent Prem crowds ?

Anyway it's all about the timing in regards to cutting ST prices, doing it as a desperate measure doesn't have much effect but doing it when the team/club is going through a purple patch will have good results, league you are in contribution massively obviously.

There's plenty evidence on both sides of the coin in the recent past c10 years ago under Big Sam with a massive positive effect and a good team under a good manager and a marquee summer signing, economy still buoyant yet crowds flopped because of a significant hike in prices all at once when Hughes was here.

 

It could have been £13 per head I suppose. I take it that was per season? Whatever the figure it was astonishingly low.

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

Sales have risen, but only to the level we were at before the appointment of Coyle, as that summer saw the largest number of non renewals since relegation from the PL.

So just a reversion to the mean, perhaps

Which pretty much backs up my view the way to increase ST sales is success on the pitch. Coyle left February 2017 and Mowbray arrived. No opportunity at that point to increase sales or at the end of a season when we were relegated.

Season 2017/18 brings promotion on the back of our first successful season in eight years. ST sales increase by 20%

38 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

It's happened before. Slashed prices and dramatically increased ST holders. It was the man quoted in your post that did it. As for the £1.13 where's your evidence? 

I don't have a recording but in a meeting with JW he stated match day sales were £1.13. It may not have been precisely this amount, though I believe it was, and it was certainly below £2. You only have to go on the concourse at halftime to see how few people are spending. Myself, we have two STs, I spend less than £20 per season, possibly £10. All I ever buy is a coffee on the odd ocassiona I'm bored to death by the game.

Taking back Ewood was what 15-20 years ago?? You ignore all the other factors involved with our decline in crowds. The campaign took place when the general mood around Ewood was positive, the economy was different, people had faith in Williams, the club etc. no one had heard of Venkys etc. There had been no turmoil. Alongside this sits all the reasons I've already sighted.

Taking back Ewood was a different time, a different place and has little relevance today.

16 minutes ago, 47er said:

Well, its been done before----is that not evidence? Would we have got 27000 for the last game  of last season without a price cut?

There's  no arguing +/- 15,000 extra turned up for £10. Where though is the evidence those supporters would pay £230 for an ST? There is none. It's said earlier this game shouldn't be used as an example, I'm not sure why not. It only took one look at the DE and the people flooding on to the pitch to realise the makeup of that crowd was not 15,000 potential ST holders - it was people there for a party which is great.

Again it's said we've increased sales by 25% so perhaps 2,000 of the Oxford crowd did sign up for this year. If they did it represents +/- 13% of those fans. Not bad.

On 29/01/2019 at 18:37, magicalmortensleftpeg said:

A £199 season ticket is less than £10 a game. How are we meant to compete financially against other teams with that?  You understand that we do need to act as a business sometimes as well? If you want a decent product on the pitch then at some stage we need to pay for it. It’s probably £10 a game in the national league if you’d rather we play there..?

Therein lays the problem in any discussion about ST and matchday prices, too many people think they know how to run a football club while failing to take account of the fact we have lost +/- 10,000 fans for a very wide range of reasons. The catalyst for this loss is/was Venkys but the reasons are far wider. Do people seriously think Waggot and the management sit down and have a discussion about how best to "fleece" or "milk" the support? Of course not. They will though have a serious discussion about the prices which can be charged to maximise the income while increasing sales. Mattyblue states ST sales have increased by 25% over last year which proves the point.

I spent over 40 years in sales and if I learnt one thing it is never reduce price in the expectation of increased long-term (note long-term) as the result is always customer retention at a lower price than could have been achieved. It simply does not work financially.

On 29/01/2019 at 18:32, AAK said:

After a few years of not going much, apart from freebies and cheap ticket games, the £25-£30 tickets suddenly seem just an outrageous amount of money to spend on a mid-table championship/league 1 game. Back when some of us didn't have season tickets at times, we would still get to as many as we can and didn't think anything of the £20-25 at the time prices, but now we know what else that money can go on, we think twice about it, I mean £25 mean price, plus £5er on food, £20 on beers, £5er on the bus you're at £55 as a minimum. This is why they need to do so much more with their season tickets, people don't think much about a £25 a month or whatever it is direct debit, doesn't feel as much a pinch on the pockets.
 

To use your example it's"£25 ticket plus bus fare £5 making a total of £30" to get to the game but your then adding a minimum of "£25 for food and beer," which are far from essential to watch a game. I'm not sure how much a full ST costs and can't find it on Rovers website but a half ST start in the BBE is £199 for, I think, 11 matches - £18/game plus your bus fair of £5 making a total of £23. For less than the amount you say needs to be spent on food and beer its possible to buy a season ticket and travel to the game.

The cost per game at Ewood is cheap. Any other money a supporter chooses to spend on the day is their choice and nothing to do with the club.

On 29/01/2019 at 20:32, blueboy3333 said:

10k ST holders at an average of £350 is £3.5m

15k ST holders at an average of £200 is £3m

Add in the extra revenue from food/drinks/merch those extra 5k fans bring and the difference would be negligible. 

But you have absolutely no evidence to support your argument that this would be the result.

The additional revenue you talk of is a pitiful amount. I've no idea of today's fugures but John Williams used to quote a figure of £1.13. That has always stuck in my mind.

33 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Totally agree, we've lost a shedload of fans and it is going to be fiendishly hard to get them back.

However, disagree with the bold, the majority of clubs in the top 5 divisions are getting better gates than they did 20 years ago, many substantially so. A look down the average attendances in this league in when we last won promotion shows just how much crowds have shot up across the board. 

We are one of the few clubs that have gone the other way, and we know who to thank.

I know you study this far closer than I Matty so I'm sure you're correct about better gates at most clubs. There's no doubt Venkys take the blame for our decline.

The problem is when I look around me at all the people who used to go I know none are going back. Myself included there were five in the car. Today it's three diehards, me and two sons. My third son isn't interested. We also took a neighbour's lad, he's left the area. Three or so years ago I took him on Boxing Day, we were awful, asked him along for the next game "What? To watch that?" was the response.

The parents who took the kids are now, like me, retired. They've stopped, the kids leaving for uni etc. was a catalyst. At least 50% of the children have left Lancashire. Those now in their 30s still in the area don't take their kids - that's a generation gone. Guy I worked with had two STs but then got some for Utd - he just wanted PL football. I probably knew 40 ST holders, today less than 10.

Today I only need 15 minutes at most to get to Ewood but it can take an hour to get home. This is because the car parks are locked till the away coaches have left. The traffic is then solid as far as Moulden Brow - all driving out of Blackburn.

Time was when we drove down LBR there were hundreds, perhaps 1000+ walking to the ground. Today it's not even noticeable.

The damage Venkys did may take a generation to repair and that's if we have a quality PL team. Without we are where we are. Hopefully they'll get another 25 years out of me!!!!

To put it in a nutshell, when I meet people socially who I don't see often I get two perhaps three questions:

"Rovers doing OK?"

"Do you still go?"

"Good result (last week, yesterday or whenever we played)" as appropriate.

Always from people who used to go.

No way will we see 18k every week at Ewood till we are back in the PL. If we hit 15k I'd be very pleased and 25k is just wishful thinking in the Championship.

We've lost 10,000 supporters, most were not diehard fans. Yes they still support the club, take an interest etc. but return? I can't see it unless we hit the PL and even then it will be tough. 

I don't think people realise the extent to which things have changed. A stream of cars used to leave my village (5 miles to Ewood) at one time, probably 30-35 people, the traffic would be backed up to between the Hoghton Arms and Moulden Brow, leaving at 2.00pm was essential. Sometimes it was quicker to take the Belmont road and go through Tockholes.

Today I can leave at 2.40 and be in my seat for KO. Admittedly 2.35 is easier! That's how it was in the 80s.

I'm afraid life has moved on, people do other things, too much football on TV etc. The club shouldn't stop trying but it's clear why the pricing policy is what it is. I really think we would struggle to get good home gates in the PL.

9 hours ago, Stuart said:

The key to increasing ST sales is price. The current price point is using fans as a cash cow and doesn’t encourage growth.

10,000 fans on a match day is nothing to shout about.

I can't agree Stuart because there are many examples of ticket promotions failing to significantly improve our crowd in recent seasons.

Make tickets and STs as cheap as chips or even free you still won't attract fans if the team is poor. Only the absolute diehards will eat h a bad team. Clearly there is a balance to be struck but the cash cow view is one held only by a small and quite vociferous group of disenchanted supporters who are largely unrepresentative of the fan base.

As @gumboots rightly says it's all about the package. For me the package is the team, manager, quality of view others will want to add, parking, refreshments and getting away after the game to this. For where we are now the price at somewhere around £15/match is good value.

@Mattyblue yes £400 in the BBE would probably be pushing it though that is still only £17/game. If we charged £400 in the PL £21 per match would still be good.

12 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

We’ve now got 10,000 season ticket holders. Which isn’t far off 2,000 up from our last season in this league and last season. As a result the home crowd is around 12,000 fans each week instead of 10,000.

It’s a start, but it shows that the only consistent way to raise crowds is increasing the season ticket holder base (promotion aside). 

Up to Waggott to try and get the offer right this summer. Another £50 on the cost won’t do it...

Surely you're contradicting yourself? Despite the price rise you state ST sales are up by 2000, I didn't realise it was this high, yet you argue another £50 won't do it next summer. Most businesses would view sales growth of 25% on increased prices as good news.

Two things have always been clear at Ewood, we are very reliant on ST sales and success on the pitch drives sales.

You say ST sales increased by 25% despite the much criticised price increases. Maintaining 25% growth for the next two seasons would give an ST base of 15600 - doubled in three years. That would be hard to argue with.

The key to increasing ST sales is success on the pitch, which we have, coupled with reasonable prices, which with an ST working out at around £15 per game it's arguable we also have.

2 hours ago, Stuart said:

All three coaches!

There was only one! The rest will be scrabbling around for petrol receipts.............................

21 hours ago, HowieFive0 said:

And there you go ..exactly what me and others said months ago . Start with the kids and get them hooked. 

22 hours ago, JHRover said:

Coventry doing a repeat of their 'Community Day' by selling tickets at £5 in advance and have donated 12,000 to local schools. Impressive.

Sadly there is no evidence to support the belief free or cheap kids tickets grows the longterm support. Yes it makes them Rovers for life but today's society is so mobile many leave the area, move on to other interests. If it worked today the ground would be full of 30+ year old adults

During the 90s/early 00s I knew 18 kids who attended with parents. Of those 2, possibly 4 are ST holders today.

By all means fill the ground with kids and parents, I've no issue with it but the impact is very short-term - literally a single match. There are many barriers to this being successful. Every child needs a minimum of one interested adult; school groups need transport, supervision, DBS etc. To really build support it needs to be every match, one offs achieve little.

In my opinion Rovers best work in this area was the Saturday club of the 90s. Deliver kids to Witton Park or BRIC at 10.00, collect at 2.30 from BRIC with match ticket.  All for, I think, £10 and relieving parents to shop, clean, chill or whatever. ST holders were discounted to around £5.

1 hour ago, gumboots said:

I went to Newcastle at the weekend. I happen to have a meeting I can't avoid on the 15th Jan. I'd rather go to the cup game at Ewood but I'm obliged to attend this particular very dull and unnecessary meeting for a number of reasons I won't bore you with. If the match is moved, not for my convenience but for a TV audience, then I will go if at all possible. 

And if the RL was a dig at me, I have never been to a rugby league game in my life. 

None of which actually addresses the point. As for RL it was you who explained in detail how you could get a better offer and it was easier to watch Sale Sharks (I think that's the team near the TC) than get to Ewood. Whether you went or not is irrelevant - the comparison was made. It's not a dig at you it's a rather strange, in my view, comparison you made when explaining another reason for not attending.

People either want to support the team or not. You're one of many who have a litany of reasons not to go. It boils down to your original comment that league games are dire. You don't want to watch what you perceive as dire football. Most football fans watch average football all their lives and if they're lucky their club gets its' moment in the sun.

How do you make the judgement when you don't attend??

6 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Oh, hang on, we'll contact the Club and see if we can rearrange the date for you.

?

I fear the crowd will be slightly embarrassing. As many Toon fans willing to make the 2hr 45 min journey down to support their team at bargain prices as home fans, many of whom probably won't be able to be arsed to cross the road because they won't want to spend a tenner if the game is on tv etc. 

Both paragraphs match exactly what I was thinking.

Too many people have excuses for not going when really they should just admit they don't want to. I've no problem with those who simply don't want to go. I'm tired of listening to those who want to tell us how it's all the club's fault and how wonderful it is to drive to the Trafford Centre to watch RL because it's easier to park.

A bit earlier the club was being criticised for not having tickets on sale today. Five minutes later whoops the club have put tickets on sale.

29 minutes ago, gumboots said:

I don't know league games will be dire that's true but many are dreary affairs with neither side wanting to lose and so one or both often sets up originally to defend and hope for at least a draw, whereas the cup offers a result you know counts on that one occasion. And Newcastle were pretty dire on Saturday. But the result still mattered there and then rather than as one of a series. 

Don't get me wrong. I like watching league games too. I was just trying to explain what it is about the cup that some of the people on here were talking about miss out on by not bothering with cup games. I couldn't believe the crowds a couple of years ago when we went on that little run and beat premier league opposition and I wanted to try to explain why I like the cup. And you never know. There's always that one in a million chance you might win the thing!

That's what football is all about. A lot of average matches, some dire ones and the occasional great game. It makes no difference what the competition is.

There's every reason to suggest Newcastle will set up to contain Rovers safe in the knowledge they have a great chance of nicking it in the 89th minute.

If you don't go you don't get to see Charlie score direct from a corner or a superb team goal from Bradley Dack. There's a lot of rough to go with the smooth.

38 minutes ago, gumboots said:

If its the original 15th Jan date I can't go. I'd love to as Id rather watch a cup match than some dire league game and some of the best matches I've seen in recent years have been cup ties. I love night matches too - the dark outside the stadium makes you feel more of the all in together type feeling that adds to excitement. However, long standing meeting arranged for 15th and I don't feel I can escape it

How do you know the league games are dire?

Why should a cup game against a poor PL side be exciting? It could be equally as bad as the supposed dire league games.

No harm in an offer Philip but I wouldn't hold your breath on sales. I'll be going but I'm not particularly excited. It's only Newcastle and I'd suggest the FA cup has been so badly devalued many casual fans will only give it a passing glance. Everyone knows tickets are easy to get, even a home tie against Burnley wouldn't make a voucher a golden ticket these days.

This isn't a big game,  a Championship club needs to be drawing a top six team at this stage to get the floating fan engaged. Newcastle are not what they were, just a bang average to poor PL club.

Traveling fans aside we will do very well to match a league attendance. 

22 hours ago, DE. said:

...........m the manager and his immediate staff (of which I have to include Waggott as Mowbray hired him)..........

Is this a typo or correct? If correct can you give a bit more detail? I've not come across a manager hiring a CE before.

I realise Waggott and Mowbray worked together at Coventry.

Just as knees jerking so high people almost take their own teeth out does no one any favours.

Just like the "that team should have got pasted" comment above.

8 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

things like the "false 9" bollux,

Ah yes the "false 9" and other associated total nonsense spouted by "expert" commentators who are nothing more than end of career pros squeezing a few more ££££s out of the game. All of which is eagerly lapped up by a gullible audience before being regurgitated in the pub.

"False 9" means we don't have a striker available so we are going to stick the bloke most likely to score in that position.

Football, and our squad and manager would do well to remember, is simple. We have defenders, midfielders and attacking players. Each has to work hard in their role and help with other aspects of the game such as defending from the front. Good players pass the ball, bad ones hoof it long for someone else to deal with. We have a mix of passers and hoofers.

As for the team spirit. I'm sure it's still there. We had a poor performance at Preston and a diabolical one at Wigan - the worst league performance under Mowbray, we have been even worse in at least one cup game. It's human nature to fall out and argue after such a performance. I would fully expect seasoned pros like Mulgrew and Graham to have something to say in particular to players like Dack who has failed to contribute for weeks.

However the world hasn't ended, no one died, the sky hasn't fallen in. I'm confident team spirit will return on Saturday and Tony will sort out the problems. I would drop Dack, play Brereton with Graham so the lad can learn from a proper professional footballer while Danny is still around. Don't ask me how but I'd like to see Bennet, available?, and Rothwell in there. I think, much as I hate to say it, we defended better without Mulgrew. To an extent I think the other defenders constantly look to Mulgrew to sort everything out. This was very much in evidence last season but this year Charlie isn't coping with it so well.

It's no time to panic but a real shame we've missed great opportunities. This week alone we could have gone sixth and other games with more concentration the same, at least, applies. I'm sure both manager and players know this.

Myself I'm disappointed but not angry and on occasion last season I was angry. It was noticeable amongst the fans at the DW there was little anger just tangible disappointment we could play so badly following a poor performance at Deepdale.

48 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

 

We are losing and he puts on a defender. When we created zero chances. 

Many people have identified this so I'm not singling your post out for reply.

To my mind bringing on Williams for Graham was an attempt to solve two problems with one change. Bell had a nightmare first half and his confidence was draining away by the minute. Graham is either unfit or carrying an injury, probably the latter. I thought the substitution was to shore up the left back position, try to use Bell going forward, where many say he is better, and perhaps provide extra cover down our left as we'd been hammered there for 45 minutes.

Whether a good choice or not it wasn't a case of replacing a proven goal scorer with a defender but moving players around to try something different. Personally I can't see the point of putting Armstrong central against defenders the size of Wigan's.

I did feel we had to get Bell out of the game at half time. Didn't expect the move Mowbray made.

7 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Largely agree Paul. I think you have a great point about the non Blackburn based support. With the demographic changes that the town has seen, our support base is stretching further and further out - we don’t keep them in the tent and the club will slowly wither on the vine.

I imagine a much higher percentage of the database contains addresses with non BB1/BB2 postcodes then it did 20 years ago.

I will now bang my drum again. The £3 and general match by match pricing are not the main issue (as unnecessary and expensive I think they are for second division football), we are attracting the same amount of walk ons as we always have.

The issue is we are not selling enough season tickets, the backbone of our support for years. We increase them, we increase crowds

Over you to you Steve...

Exactly as I've also said. STs are the answer. Everyone I know who used to go had an ST. It was and is great value but there still is a huge communication problem. One thing the club has to address is the bulk of potential supporters don't want to queue at a ticket office or pay cash. I know how this sounds but it is simply inconvenient to them. Decent online booking, easy telephone sales (the TO are outstanding at this) are really important. A bar code in an email etc. I don't go anywhere without a ticket these days. I never carry enough cash to buy a ticket even for the cinema and I just cannot be bothered with queuing when there is no need to. The last thing I would do is drive to Ewood, stand in a queue and perhaps miss the KO.

Communication and making life simple is the answer.

@blueboy3333 every post you make in response to me indicates you simply do not want to engage in the discussion, which was a complaint you made some days back. There is no point in quoting people out of context to suit your view of the poster. If you think I haven't provided justification, I wouldn't call it that, then I can only refer you back to the response I gave when you asked me for reasons. I gave reasons, you might disagree but to argue I gave none is simply incorrect. What you continue to demonstrate is the desire amongst some to continually criticise and kick out at those who hold different or opposing views. 

I've given you many good reasons and views on attendances and backed them up as much as anyone else can because it is all anecdotal. You though continue to cherrypick a few lines out of context. Nothing will move forward when people simply keep hammering the same point.