I suspect Villarreal made the signing on the basis that if they can get a bit out of him, they have a fair chance of profiting by selling him to an English club.

He could possibly hit it off in La Liga as a centre forward, with an objective to finish moves, but it’ll take a lot for him to succeed as a winger/midfielder in Spain where the demands are different.

It could be a bit like Adam Armstrong in the Premier League. Albeit, Brereton-Diaz’s Chilean experience and the quality of the squad should help him.

That said, he has a habit of surprising people, so who knows. He will need time to try and adapt.

To state the obvious, our squad level is low compared to previous years. The reliance on very inexperienced youngsters as starters and on the bench without senior players setting standards and taking responsibility is very risky.

It does seem that survival might become the main aim this season and, perhaps, longer-term.

The days of Mowbray leaving Harvey Elliot on the bench and struggling to get Armstrong, Brereton, Rothwell, Harwood-Bellis and co. to function as a team will be long behind us.

On 10/06/2023 at 02:24, bluebruce said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/23576445.blackburn-rovers-frustrated-lack-efl-opportunities-players/

I share his frustration at the lack of EFL opportunities we've been able to manage for our youngsters. We clearly have one of the best academies in the country, playing at the top youth level, churning out a string of Championship level players, and yet pro clubs don't seem as interested because the main team isn't in the Prem.

I hope we can work on this somehow. You can't force clubs to take your youth players and use them, but the use of the phrase in there of something like the phone doesn't ring enough...maybe we can work on improving our networking with other clubs and starting these discussions ourselves instead of hanging back and waiting for it to happen. I'm not saying this is entirely our fault either, I do agree with him there's probably an unfair perception of our youth players not being as glamorous due to not being attached to a Prem club. I'm sure we've had more youngsters who could have made an impact at League One and Two levels if they'd had the chances, than have had the chances. That said, some of our youngsters loaned out have disappointed a bit (albeit sometimes from lack of game time), but that's the nature of loaning youth players.

I have questions about this and whether other factors are at play. I'm guessing but I suspect that the club have at times blocked loan move opportunities due to indecision or worries about the strength of the first team squad. Cases in point would be Conor McBride and Sam Burns who had stellar periods in the U23s and, in the case of McBride, had made a first team pre-season appearance and scored for the firsts. However, the club proceeded to keep hold of them in the U23s. Of course, I don't know if they had interested clubs but my guess would be they would have had at that time. 

If Tyler Magloire who had a difficult loan in Scotland, albeit, he played a lot, and was unimpressive in his appearances for Rovers found a loan move, you would think that some others would too.

I have no experience in this area and am speculating but I think the club could, potentially, do more to release players for loan moves at the start of campaigns, when EFL clubs are planning their squads and their budgets. For example, the club should be, in my opinion, offering Jack Vale a loan move, unless, of course, they see him as integral to the first team this coming campaign.

Edit: One thing I hope we see less of is the 1 month/very short non-league loan moves for key U23 players. Burns and Pike have gone on them and I can't see what point there is. If it's a 17 year old gaining some work experience or someone who's going to be let go and is not worth having around, that's a different matter.

Also, a longer-term loan move in non-league, like Raya had, might have some benefit, but the very short-term bitty and low quality loans don't seem to serve much of a purpose.

8 hours ago, Exiled_Rover said:

They've certainly over-egged the pudding with their celebrations.

It's a fine achievement, but it's a very minor trophy.

I compare it to Rovers’ Worthy Cup win but the League Cup is an established tournament with all the Prem clubs involved, if not fielding full-strength.

Rovers had a relatively charmed run that year with Sheffield Wed in the semis. However, we definitely didn’t have one of the biggest wage bills of all the teams involved as, I suppose, West Ham did.

Regardless, it is infuriating how the powers that be are devaluing European football with tournament expansions that largely, I feel benefit the wealthy clubs and leagues.

For England, Rice has had games where he’s run at and beaten players in surging runs. He has the capacity, I think of being a progressive midfielder.

I’d like to see how he performs with freedom to get forward in a way he didn’t really when he played deep-lying alongside Phillips. 

That said, he’s inevitably overrated because he’s English (via Eire) but still an excellent player. One concern I might have is he may, from my limited knowledge, be in with the world of social media personalities which can be a distraction. But helping his team win a tournament is evidence against that.

I have been reflecting on West Ham’s win and I do wonder whether it is such an achievement. From my reckoning they have the biggest wage bill of all the teams in the tournament (based on pure guesswork, so could be wrong). 
 
Sure, they deserve plaudits and beat some prestigious sides like Fiorentina and Alkmaar, although not sure how strong either are.

1 hour ago, rog of the rovers said:

As a footballer and striker I'd rank him below: (in chronological order)

Shearer, Newell, Sutton, Gallacher, Jansen, Cole, Bellamy, Dickov, McCarthy, Santa Cruz, Roberts, Yakubu, Rhodes, Gestede, Graham, Armstrong.

That's an interesting debate (and a can of worms!). It's not straightforward to compare as Brereton-Diaz rarely played as a central striker - and the above rarely played as left forwards, apart from, Armstrong, I believe. Though, of course, some of the names are light years ahead.

I do feel that playing as a forward is arguably more challenging in the modern game. As a two of strikers, you have a partner to support you with flick-ons and hold up, whilst, I feel, the modern game leaves the forwards quite adrift from each other. For example, how would Matt Jansen fare as a lone forward in a three? I'm sure he'd be decent but I suspect it would be tougher for him (albeit, I do wonder whether the standard in the Champ compares to before).

1 hour ago, bluebruce said:

Now that we know he's leaving for free, I think it's an interesting question, maybe worth a poll: with hindsight, did signing Ben Brereton prove to be a waste of money?

6-7 million on his fee. Unknown amount for signing on fee, unknown amount of wages but reputed to be low (I once read on here it was believed to be about 8k p/w I think it was). Some slight debate over exact numbers, but the below shouldn't be questionable...

First two seasons a complete bust, waste of a shirt. One goal each season.

Third season contributed effectively, 7 goals from out wide, played nearly every game.

Fourth season phenomenal..up to January, then essentially vanished as a force (partly circumstances beyond his control like injuries, Chile callups etc a big factor, but ultimately we're talking about what we got out of him).

Fifth season very good until January, again. Then a bit of a liability most of the rest of the season until the last day send-off.

The club achieved zero playoff placements and zero financial return on investment. We were never in relegation fights during his effective years, so I think it's hard to argue he saved us from relegation either (guess you never know where we'd have been without his goals, but I don't see it).

So, that's what we got out of him and during his time here - was it worth it?

Personally, I'm going with no. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't judge the worthiness of most transfers by whether we reached the playoffs, or we'd say every transfer we didn't make a profit on was a waste. But this was a very, very substantial outlay for a club of our financial strength, and none of the money came back to us. I don't think his wage particularly comes into the equation as we'd still have had to pay someone else a similar wage to be a solid contributor, and let's say 1 or 2 million of that fee too. I'm not talking about someone as good as Ben was at his best, just that we'd have bought someone else for the role who for the sake of argument let's say was an average contributor.

I know someone is going to say it, and yes the club is to blame for not managing his contract and sale better, but that's not the question I'm asking here. No coulda woulda shouldas, just, in the end, did this transfer work out to be a good one for the club, worth what we spent?

Was it a major net loss? Yes, just as pretty much every single signing we have made in this league, from Lewis Holtby to Joe Rothwell, whether we paid a fee or not and includes loanees.

In the credit column, arguably, are intangibles of providing entertainment and satisfaction to fans, as well as raising the profile of the club. There's no doubt Brereton-Diaz did both at times.

However, it is true that throwing huge sums at individual players and neglecting the rest and to consistently let star players leave for free is not sustainable and asking for financial calamity.

Here's something to ponder. Tony Mowbray had Brereton-Diaz, Adam Armstrong, Harvey Elliot and Joe Rothwell in his squad and we didn't make it to the play offs. You might add Harwood-Bellis and Lenihan who are regulars in defence at the top of this league.

Sure, not all were as experienced and mature as they are now but that must go down as a failure.

37 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Totally agree, he'd be in the trench too.

I was just thinking if we had a team of A. Keeper, Adam plus the rest a  mix of JRCs and SSs it would be a hell of an outfit.

Talk of Szmodics and JRC as stalwarts is somewhat ironic considering their injury records. I’m not sure either can be relied on for a full season but I hope I’m wrong. Rankin-Costello seems to have kept healthy for an unprecedented spell, so hoping he’s turned a corner.

We have had success with former England youth forwards in Armstrong and Brereton-Diaz, so wonder if keeping an eye there might be worthwhile and their showings for their clubs, of course. Though, we’ve had misses here too.
 

I still have hopes for Markanday but we’ll see. Not looking promising at the moment.

13 hours ago, tomphil said:

Not having a go at the player himself but the wisdom ( never a word associated with Venky owned Rovers ) in the whole scenario of signing him has proved to be utterly pointless.

Two good spells a year apart in 4 years plus at the club, no return on the 7 million or even a penny back towards it. No top 6 finishes and we are losing him anyway instead of having a player we've grown pay us back in time if not money.

That fee could and should have been so much better used, a pointless experiment and a costly one.

Good luck to him though seems a decent guy and when he's at it he was a joy to watch.

I see your point but, perhaps, the wisdom of signing him can be separated from the wisdom of not investing in a central midfielder or a central forward, I feel - or turning down offers for him when it was clear he was not going to sign a new contract. Had we had a DM and a striker, Brereton-Diaz's goals may have helped to push us into a top six place. Moreover, had the club recognised that promotion chances were slim without aforementioned roles filled and that selling Diaz and reinvesting would sustain us long-term, then there might be less ambivalence about his time here now.

It has to go down as a good signing, overall, which was not managed for the best of the club. Likewise, Rothwell, who also struggled for quite a long time, had his golden spell and then tailed off as he was leaving the club on a free. The club should probably have sold him in, at latest, January, albeit, they were banking on play-offs.

Overall, I agree, however, that there is absolutely little point in buying big money players whilst neglecting the rest of the squad and then letting them leave on a free. It is a huge net loss.

27 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

A massive mistake not to cash in on him a multi million pounds mistake in fact. Fair play to the lad how he has turned it around from when he first came here but I would be staggered if he was a big success in La Liga. I find it bewildering that a club like Villarreal sitting 5th in La Liga and all but certain to be in the Europa League next season are signing him.

I can seeing him doing ok, as he has done for Chile. Maybe, like Michael Owen did in a season at Real Madrid. After that, maybe a transfer to the Premier League or bounce around on loan in La Liga. It's good publicity for Villareal, probably, and a fair chance of making some money on the player.

Personally, I'll say that I got it completely wrong about him. I thought he looked like he had talent but not the complete game to succeed at a higher level. To his credit, I think he has a level of self-belief which can go some way to overcoming technical shortcomings. I believe that Harry Chapman and BBD played together for England youth teams. When they were here together, I did not expect that their careers would diverge so extremely.

The turnaround that really astounds me is his shooting. If I think back to the highlights I saw of him during his Forest days and his early time at Rovers, he seemed to scuff every shot. Now he is striking the ball very impressively - comparable to how Adam Armstrong used to, if not better. And he's able to do so on the run.

Biggest homegrown centre midfield talent since David Dunn, twenty or so years ago, or am I forgetting players? I think John Buckley, on technical ability, is up there but, perhaps, lacks in self-belief, at times, and will hopefully improve. But Wharton seems to have things together at a very young age, albeit, he hasn't played that much this season.

With the right management and a bit of luck, a Wharton, Buckley and A.Nother could be very special indeed. The academy graduates continue to give us a fighting chance, when the club is generally mismanaged.

22 minutes ago, B16Rover said:

To steal a stat from the internet, Coventry are the worst team to finish 5th and Sunderland 6th since 1988

I haven't seen that claim but I do think the quality is lacking. We don't need to look too far, as we almost made the play-offs and yet we've barely had 'a team'. Aside from the defence, the midfield and forward have been chopped and changed and gone in and out of form. Our main defensive midfielder has, arguably, had a 5 or 6/10 season, on average. The central midfielders have been really inconsistent and only Adam Wharton might be considered reliable and he hasn't played regularly.

This season's promoted clubs have barely a hope of being anything other than fodder next season. That, or they resort to anti-football to scrape points and survival. The gulf between Premier League and the rest is astronomical right now. 

Given the really low likelihood of Rovers getting promoted without a goalscorer and relying on teenagers in the spine of the team, the club really need to start selling to invest to sustain our future. Brereton-Diaz going for nothing is really galling, though we can never be sure reinvestment would've happened.

I can see Vale going the way of another Rovers Welsh striker, James Thomas, in needing to drop down the leagues and get experience to flourish.

Clearly, the jump up is not easy - see Connor McBride and Joe Nuttall. 

We received a transfer fee for Nuttall, so if Vale was to score a few on loan but not do enough to turn things around, might be a chance for the club to recoup a fee.

6 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Chaddy used to bang on about the lad Morris who’s at Luton now.. I always thought he was very hard working but a bit of a blunt instrument. His scoring record previously would back up that opinion. Now he can’t stop scoring, good coaching ?

Amari’i Bell too who is a regular there now.

If forwards can’t perform individually, an alternative might be to play a partnership of two forwards to support each other. I would guess that a Dolan-Gallagher pairing would do better than either as a lone forward.

9 minutes ago, New Jeru said:

Tugay didn’t didn’t even peak until he was about 34.  Imagine how good Wharton will be in 15 years.

Probably at Bayern or PSG, though.

Not sure that we saw the best Tugay. He was a goal scoring midfielder for Galatasaray. Would be interesting to know.

On 23/04/2023 at 18:21, Darrenbot said:

I just googled and City have 38 players out on loan and yet these played us off the park,just shows the gap between a Championship club and a top Prem teams resources.

With oligarchs, states and hedge funds taking over pretty much the whole league, it's going to be hard for us to stay in Prem 2. The change to five subs probably contributes to even bigger squads for those who can afford it. Our recruitment at that level has changed, it seems, as we used to spread the net further and get in youngsters from Scotland and Ireland regularly, whilst now it's much less, it seems, though, we're finding useful local talent.

On Sam Burns, he desperately needed another league club loan move when it became clear that the current management didn't rate him highly at the start of the season. After that, injuries seem to have put pay to the campaign.

Incidentally, I noticed that Jacob Davenport, erstwhile reserve/fringe player is now at Stockport, having been released by Lincoln. He was considered a first team squad player with youth on his side to establish himself. Without knowing the details of Davenport's career since, I wonder if it is a Jason Lowe situation, where a limited player is carried by other more talented players and catches the manager's eye for athleticism, leadership or other such qualities, until he is surrounded by less quality and his level becomes apparent. I'm pretty sure we paid a transfer fee for Davenport who rarely looked like he had any special qualities and didn't seem to have the physical attributes for a typical DM.

58 minutes ago, Darrenbot said:

If he's sold in the summer it'll confirm some peoples thoughts that the club doesn't care about being promoted,what team with proper promotion ambitions would sell a player that has the ability to get you into the Prem

To be fair to the club, they didn't sell Brereton-Diaz or Rothwell when they could have. Nor Lenihan and Nyambe.

The club should look to keep it's best players but part of the strategy must be selling now and again, when appropriate, and reinvesting. I'm not sure the club has such a strategy - or, else, I can't see it, because to me, selling Lenihan was an obvious move because he was arguably at a replaceable level. Diaz and Rothwell are more arguable, especially, as they were central to hopes of promotion, at those times, but letting them leave on a free comes at a big cost.

Wharton's on a contract until 2024, with the notorious year option (which, if exercised and the player is any good, means they are almost certainly leaving). An extension should be on the cards this summer. The year option can give a false sense of security but, invariably, if it is exercised and no new contract agreed by then, it means the club are unsure of the player or vice versa.

On 17/04/2023 at 16:10, Mattyblue said:

He had a year of his deal left (notwithstanding the option) so it’s not exactly being wise after the event to say we should’ve been re-signing him up.

I don't know what the balance is between retaining a team spirit and key players and occasionally accepting the Bosman risk and letting players with value leave on a free year after year. But, I do know that the club has got the wrong balance after departures of Rothwell, Nyambe, Lenihan and soon Brereton-Diaz. 

That's not to say we would necessarily be in any better position on the pitch but long-term, this is a sure way to decline.

2 hours ago, Hannoverover said:

Great turnaround and win. That will surely see us stay up this season. Big boost for our academy and future player development. 

I was slightly surprised that we didn't play more fringe first team players today given how important the game was.

I think the U23s have to be expected to hold their own without over reliance on over-age players or first team fringe players.

After all, fringe players will need loan moves next season to further their development. This campaign has seen few loans for fringe players as far as I recall. Markanday went to Aberdeen and Butterworth to Port Vale. Can't think of others, except the likes of Pike and Annesley who weren't close to the first team.

It might not be possible due to financial circumstances but a loan for any of Wharton, Garrett or Phillips - not to mention Vale, would potentially aid their development next season. 

23 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Poorer standard compared to when?

The Duff and Dunn crop, perhaps, but that was 25 years ago.

We’ve never had an era in which we are churning out players that can operate in the first team on such a consistent basis.

Watchers of the youth set-up will know better but it does seem as if due to circumstances youth players are getting more of a chance than before.

We have had a strong U23 team (disbanding greatly this summer) and yet to see how the next crop fare. However, as an example I think the team with Willem Tomlinson and Lewis Hardcastle, Travis at right back and so on was extremely strong at that level. For different reasons Tomlinson and Hardcastle's careers fell away.

Incidentally, the three players that I was most hopeful about from the stellar U23 campaign led by Billy Barr were Lennie Cirino, Isaac Whitehall and Connor McBride...so that tells you what I know! Albeit Whitehall and Cirino have suffered from injuries and barely played this season.

On 12/04/2023 at 12:51, ben_the_beast said:

Given the quality and rate of youngsters developing into first team players, it does give me a feeling we're seeing the start of something special. Should we still be in the championship in a couple of years I don't think it's a stretch to say 8 or 9 of our strongest 11 could be either academy graduates or youth players who've joined us aged around 16. 

Balance that with ambition and a few shrewd additions and the future is beginning to look very bright.

Reputations matter. Our academy coupled with the open pathway to the first team is going to make us an increasingly attractive proposition to any younger players. The clubs and Jack's vision are looking like a reality and the momentum which is building is only going to increase.

You might be right, but my impression is that the standard of the players coming through is not dissimilar or, perhaps, might be a bit lower, generally speaking, compared to previous years. However, given the financial circumstances that the club finds itself in, more are being given a chance at an earlier stage - and for longer. 

There's high hopes for Ash Phillips and Adam Wharton but, to my mind, they have yet to prove that they can turn their precocity into a consistent high standard - albeit, they are the special talents out of the crop. But, I do agree that, with exposure and development, players like Garrett and others could become solid Championship players and might even do better than that with a bit of luck.

--

On a different note, thanks for linking the highlights to the U23 game. Some excellent goals - including the consolation by Forest. Edun seems to do well at this level, especially, pushing upfield - however, his defensive game was, I think, exposed for their goal as he neglected the far post. (I assume it was Edun but stand corrected if not). It's very harsh to judge him in such a low status game when the team are cruising but it makes me wonder, again, if he has the mentality to make it at left back.

Seems like the standard of player coming through, injuries and, just maybe standard of coaching and management, comparatively, not to mention the reliance on U21 players in the firsts, is making the PL2 a struggle. Whilst fielding first teamers makes sense, we also need to push the U18s to step-up and takeover, as there will be a whole host of fringe players exiting this summer. The standard in the PL2 will, presumably, only increase with the huge sums being spent by Premier League clubs.

I have been wondering if the level of injury to the U21 squad is precedented - whether it's bad luck or something else going awry. As far as I can tell we have Barnes, Batty, Whitehall, Cirino, Burns and Baker all out long-term. Ethan Walker, Dan Pike (now on loan) and Jay Haddow have rarely or intermittently played, presumably due to injury and Gent seems to have been out recently too. That's nearly a full team of potential starters absent for games, whether injured or some other reason.

Ryan Giles' incredible transformation into a LB/LWB continues at Boro as he notched two more assists and a clean sheet and is the now the highest assist-maker in the league.

12 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

On a down note, I don't watch the junior sides and I presume he shone for them because he wouldn't have got a professional contract but what do the Ewood hierarchy see in Jack Vale to make them think he will make a decent first team centre forward? 

I've seen him a few times now and he offers so little. Last night was poor even by his standards. 

He was prolific for the U21s, pretty much scoring most games he played. He also grabbed some goals for the Welsh U21s, albeit, I believe, mostly against weaker sides.

However, he didn’t score much on his loan spells to Rochdale or FC Halifax, in non-league, with injuries playing a part.

Clearly, he’s playing because he’s seen as a centre forward, unlike say, Markanday, who has shown more but is now out on loan. It’s clear he’s struggling and having not sent him on loan, I think he really needs U21 games to try and regain some confidence - and show he’s worth persevering with.

That bench vs. Leicester makes me quite sure promotion is unlikely, though should we get into the play offs, the unexpected can happen. Not to mention that we don’t have a reliable midfield pairing, with all struggling to implement the tactics - though Travis hopefully has recovered from his poor form.

Wonder if we are hitting a trough, when it comes to the youth conveyor belt, given the struggles of the U23s to compete in what is, admittedly, the top tier of reserve football in this country. It might be unfair to judge yet, as many are new to this level and with the growing investment in the Premier League, those clubs are getting ever bigger squads. Injuries to Cirino, Batty, Whitehall, Barnes, Baker and Burns have weakened the side further and, also, perhaps, the departure of former manager, Billy Barr.