Cracking ball in by Samuel that, not bad for a striker out wide. Write him off at your own peril! 

2 hours ago, Wing Wizard Windy Miller said:

Not missing the point.  That 'starting place', without serious investment in 5 or 6 champ quality players, is relegation fodder. 

To take those teams and suggest “relegation fodder” is pure missing the point WWWM. As I said they are the teams we have “without investment”. Nobody said that would be our starting side, nobody said we won’t add more, it was merely an effort to point out what’s in the club at the minute.

I think it’s difficult to argue that they are worse than the team that came down last time, especially considering the mentality had to be built from the ground up. Would I take Dack, Smallwood, and Raya before Emnes, Lowe and Steele? 

Still stand by the idea that those setups would scrap survival under TM, but the point you missed; we will likely be adding quality to what is already a decent squad with plenty of options.

A better starting place. Is it perfect? No, if we started the season with just those teams and picked up 1/2 key injuries - we’d be relying on some pretty young backups or Whittingham, Caddis and Gladwin.

8 hours ago, Wing Wizard Windy Miller said:

Either of those line ups is relegation fodder. 

We need something. Preferably pace out wide and up top to hit teams on the counter.  Just too many pedestrian players in there.    Sounds like we are keeping our powder dry until clubs are prepared to accept less than market value for their players...

Another missing the point- the whole post is to show that we aren’t in a bad starting place, a few others seem to think we need serious investment or we will be relegated.

Just now, roversfan99 said:

4231 was in the main used, so i dont understand the desperation to change from a formation that worked in order to get us promotion.

When we did use it we looked flat. Bury at home, Doncaster at home, did we play it v Oldham at home first half? 

It doesnt get the best out of our best players. When he did play it he sometimes put Mulgrew central of a 3 to accomodate Williams, so he couldnt step out. He played 2 number 10s either side of a striker so I dont feel it gets the best out of Dack either slightly wider.

We cant be counting on the likes of Gladwin or untested youngsters either. Weve gone up with a decision so we dont need players who might at a push do a job, we need to bring in ready made quality, not overload more kids in.

Only reason we are so short on wingers is that the players we played there last season were all on loan. They need replacing with better quality.

Agree with much of that but I think it’s a good tactic to have a good two or three shapes to use. I think we will have to rely on counter a lot this season, which could be benefitted by 3 Centrebacks and an extra forward. If it’s not working, change around.

It’s not desperation to completely change what worked, it’s pragmatism to understand different options are necessary.

Just now, Fraserkirky said:

Relegation Fodder

That’s without another penny or loan, and to be honest I still disagree. Under TM, that team or the unchanged 352 would scrape survival imo.

Im quite sure we will see further recruits though. In a much better position than 2 years ago.

Just a look at whats currently on the books;

                             Raya

             Lenihan Mulgrew Williams

Bennett    Rothwell    Smallwood        Bell

                              Dack

                     Samuel Graham 

Subs/backups;

GK Leutwiler, Fisher

Defence; Nyambe, Downing,

Midfield; Evans, Whittingham, Travis

Forwards; Gladwin, Conway, Nuttall.

Thats a version of that team without any signings from this point on. They mentioned 5 today in the LET, but do we honestly need that many?

The u23s from last season might see some loan time but perhaps Tomlinson, Platt, Magliore etc could be added to the backup?

A version without further investment for alternate 4231;

                         Raya

Nyambe Lenhihan Mulgrew Williams 

           Evans            Smallwood

Samuel            Dack          Conway

                     Graham 

Subs/backups;

GK Leutwiler, Fisher

Defence; Bell, Downing,

Midfield; Rothwell, Whittingham, Travis, Bennett

Forwards; Gladwin, Nuttall.

In the “352” be happy to see investment at Centreback to push Mulgrew to LCB (as mentioned earlier in summer, a big powerful style to counter anything and improve attacking/defending set pieces) and the obvious- wide attackers, to supplement the 4231 variant of our tactics from last season.

As for the “4231”, I think this is currently weaker, without seeing Rothwell in his role and reliance on Samuel/Conway - hence why id be looking at some investment in those areas. Chapman and Armstrong would be two who instantly improve both versions of our recent tactics imo.

1 minute ago, Fraserkirky said:

Was certainly useless against Southend on opening day, switched it at half time if I recall!

And useless at home to Doncaster, but then we also changed to it whilst chasing a few games later in the season and the extra player upfront helped us over the line.

44 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Haha. I really do hope hes kicked the thought of 3 at the back in to touch after its failure last season.

 

I don’t recall it being a complete failure? I remember it being ineffective at times, useful at others. Similar to how we played 4231 and 442 times and it looked useless - ie Oldham away.

13 minutes ago, pomster said:

Damn right!

That’s not to say I don’t think the division has moved on a bit in two years, but I’d be quite happy to predict we’d stay up easily if we sign a couple more for key positions, and blood a few more talented youth players into the squad, I think it could be a big year for Travis, Tomlinson, Nuttall, maybe even Platt and Hardcastle.

Improvements in Darragh, Nyambe, Raya - we’ve a real bag of potential quality to add to - even a few key players like Dack and Smallwood are a decent age to develop further.

2 minutes ago, Fraserkirky said:

Guys are good with Conway and Samuel on the wings and Graham and er Nutall up front?

I think we’d likely start 4231 or a variation with 3 CB’s, which means Conway and Samuel are likely to be the attacking width at current, with Graham, Dack and backup of Gladwin (maybe also Rothwell?) as the other two attackers (number 9 and 10.)

Those positions are the most in need of recruitment for me. Antonsson, Chapman and (mainly) Armstrong played in those wide attacking roles, and they’ve all left.

Id like to see us add at least one more winger who can play left or right, instead of a striker out wide. Listening to sounds from the club, Chapman looks potentially setup and I’d not bet against Armstrong returning later in the window if he isn’t signed by someone else or given more opportunity at NUFC

Back to Rothwell, there may be legs in the stuff from Oxford, about him potentially suiting a more attacking role. The article below suggests he could suit an “modern inside forward from the left” or withdrawn striker, so potentially he would be a wideman in our setup? 

https://eflreference.wordpress.com/2018/06/18/joe-rothwell/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Just now, Fraserkirky said:

We have relegation fodder written all over us without,at least 4 quality first team signings. Not panicking yet though 

Have to disagree. This is a better team to the one that was relegated, that’s before any signings- imo obviously.

Id understand that many would disagree but from the performances I’ve watched, and Tony’s influence - even statistically when he inherited a rock bottom broken team from Coyle - even with only a couple of loan replacements, we are a better “team” than that imo.

A lot of that comes from spirit, character and organisation, and obviously id like to see us further up than just merely surviving but I think we are in a better starting point than a few others might.

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Wouldn't have thought Cardiff's situation had any relevance whatsoever to our own. As a general rule of thumb if you get promoted and do not strengthen significantly you are going to struggle.

 

There are examples of both working, and lots of examples of excess leading to further decline.

We are a good example of spending money and not getting any value, however our investments haven’t all been bad, Cairney, Gestede, Marshall, Conway and Evans all cost less than a million, and all of them have/had at least one promotion from the second tier on their CVs. 

The general rule of thumb for me, sensible improvements and building of a “team” is the best way to achieve any goal long term. Ofcourse, Wolves and others are perfectly obvious examples of quick fixes done with big investments, but as Pomster and others have pointed towards, we’ve spent a lot of money in the past and had not much in return. 

I’m absolutely buzzing to hear comments and rumours about players being binned off in interviews because of attitude. We need to build a mentality, that started from the ground up 12 months ago and the solution for me is continuity, patience and pragmatism. One bad apple spoils the cart. I admit more funds would help us get those exceptional talents and characters but I also feel a small pot makes the staff seek the absolute most out of their means.

A proper team spirit alone will win us points, and more quality around a few key players could help us surprise a few.

24 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Don't think I said it had. Doesn't change anything though - we need more quality, the sooner the better, and it costs. Trying to do it on the cheap is a very dangerous game.

Think we need to realise that we can't just have a repeat of last summer. Last summer for a modest sum of about £1 million we were able to recruit a top quality League one side. This time round we need better players which cost more and we're in a League with clubs who can spend more, so a million on 5-6 decent League One players might not be sufficient.

I’m not sure why I’m wasting my time replying, but you know as well as I do - if it simply came down to funds, wages and transfer fees, we would’ve returned to the top flight at the first attempt under Kean.

Cardiff hardly spent a penny in transfers last summer, other than Madine - and he hardly made an impact.

Clever, patient and long term business, not spending money for the sake of it.

7 hours ago, tomphil said:

Thankfully this fella Waggot clearly wants to take the bull by the horns and has the relevant experience to do so.

I agree on this. Only just read the article but it just reaffirms the overall improvements in comms, customer service, social media etc since he arrived. Granted there is not much concrete in the article, he talks about keeping the ground up to spec, possibly investing in the riverside which could turn Ewood into a more day to day venue, hotel/restaurante etc and also integrating and improving the academy and senior training centre.

It’s all the stuff we haven’t actually heard discussed for years, ways to actually improve the club in the long run. It’s still only talk till it’s done though! Combining the safe standing idea with a riverside re-fit could be a good idea, so could converting part of the stand into some sort of venue - a new Northcote or Bowland brewery esq establishment might work that side of Blackburn.

2 hours ago, JAL said:

How many have signed full time after their loan period ran out. 

Cairney..... Gestede.... 

2 hours ago, JAL said:

Any Rovers fan... should not.... be expecting loan players !

You can shove your loan players up your arse.

We are the Rovers !

It’s part of the game, so much of the talent is dragged upwards towards u23 teams, look at the horde some prem clubs loan out.

To ignore it is barmy. Watford practically loaned their way out of the league.

1 hour ago, JAL said:

Then Is it not fair to ask better of them then.

You invest to speculate is it that their associates at the club aren't that good thus we see Burnley outperforming us season after season which isn't acceptable in my book.

What book is that, the “Jal’s big book of BS”?

If I wasn’t in such a jovial mood I’d simply ignore your absolute rambling nonsense. Good day sir.

19 minutes ago, Neal said:

Folk need to just bloody relax and enjoy the bloody world cup! Reserve judgement until we make all of our signings.

Massively agree. Still expect us to sign a couple of important players on loan after the season starts 

34 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

My first thought as well. AHA!!

I'm somewhat underwhelmed with the Rothwell signing, for me we need a minimum of 4 or 5 signings who are either proven Championship performers or Premier League loanees who look a cut above the Championship and who would walk straight into the side, not guys who are likely to be squad fillers.

Rothwell clearly has some potential and if he represents the risky end of our business this summer and is supplemented by some proven signings of the sort I've outlined above then all well and good. If not and most of the business is of a similar ilk it smacks of there being no funds available and an almighty struggle ahead.

Way I see it, if we are signing up and comers, young projects to fit round a nucleus of a squad - the likes of Rothwell are sensible options.

I have said it before, I’d be more worried if we started chucking 30/40k at some aging premier league player. 2 or 3 more of a similar ilk, adding value and potential to the main group, supported by the youth coming through and supplemented by a couple of season long loans once the actual transfer closes in August, sensible business.

20 minutes ago, RovingRover said:

Video showing his attributes whilst at Manchester United 2 years ago 

You’ve gone and done it... I’m excited. A midfielder with technique, both feet and head up...

Its Carlos Villanueva all over again...

3 minutes ago, Mike E said:

No, but I'm willing to bet nobody on this mb thought he'd be signed this week.

Said in his interview it had been going on since January... I do remember the link but can’t recall from whom.

29 minutes ago, Tom said:

I think it’s quite possible, Mowbray mentioned he didn’t feel the hours put in were worth the reward and satisfaction of being an assistant under 23 manager 

If he has ambition then it’s a logical step if DJ ain’t going anywhere.

Young? yes

value? Less risk in a free/lower league wage match so probably but the proof is in the pudding.

Position we need? Yes, an option for Evans/Smallwood

Potential? Yes, rated and ex prem youth.

All around looks sensible to me. Also a fantastic first name...

36 minutes ago, JHRover said:

On Dunny, I wonder whether he has had his nose put out of joint, bearing in mind that he was promoted to first team coach when Mowbray arrived then swiftly demoted back to the U23s last summer.

Maybe he just wants to move on? I mean, why is everything some sort of conspiracy or problem?

3 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Gary Lineker introduces BBC coverage of this game by saying 'good news, Mo Salah starts for Egypt'.

I don't see why it is 'good news' that the best player in a rival team is fit to start. At this stage it is more of an irrelevance to England what Egypt do but I wouldn't describe it as 'good news' any more than I would consider the absence of Messi, Griezmann or Ronaldo to be beneficial to our chances of being successful.

The BBC seem utterly obsessed with pushing the Premier League product by giving massively disproportionate amounts of coverage to players who are regulars in England, presumably because they think the majority of those watching are only interested in Premier League players or only understand it if there is reference to 'famous names'

Personally one of the things that makes the World Cup worth watching is daily exposure to different players and countries to the same old faces from the Premier League, I'm certainly not getting excited that Salah is fit to play for Egypt so we can all pay homage to him and his goalscoring last season for Liverpool.

He’s one of the best players in the world at the moment, the beauty of the World Cup, it puts club football aside. For me at least.

Ofcourse it’s good news for any neutral to watch a game with the best players. On reflection, he’s not made much difference first half though, but both teams have had poor final ball or cross.

Some of the worse refereeing I’ve ever seen.

18 minutes ago, CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber said:

I'm not up in arms, I have no doubt we will do good business between now and then end of the window, I'm just questioning why TM bothered to give a date of when he wants to get his business done as I see no point in it and it gets the supporters hopes up unnecessarily. I also certainly don't think we are on our way back down, quite the opposite!

I think he just said what he’d like, infact the more I think about it, the more I’m thinking the initial comment was Waggott. Ill investigate later

16 minutes ago, CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber said:

If you're going to make a response at least counter my argument with something rather than just drivel. Maybe give me a reason why you think it was a good idea for our Tone to state a certain date he wants to buy players by? 

I don’t think he’s disagreeing with you mate, I just think he’s pointing out how much of an exaggeration it is to be up in arms because we haven’t managed to sort more business out early.

Id have to find the original article with the exact quote - doesn’t he say he’s “like to get everything done” which is not a statement of intent, it’s just wishful thinking in reality - Id like to take Olivia Atwood out for a Sunday lunch but I doubt I’d be criticised much if it never happened.

BDS and Dof95 are right, there is no need for such exaggeration. To suggest we are on our way back down because we have signed anyone yet is absolute garbage.