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rover6

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Everything posted by rover6

  1. Footballers are role models but not in every aspect of their lives. Like I said, have any of the alleged domestic violence offences committed by footy players genuinely affected such behaviour amongst the wider public? A footballer should not be judged any differently than anyone else when it comes to drink driving, imo. (That doesn't mean they haven't behaved absolutely despicably).
  2. To be fair to the Ting Tings, I don't think that you, Cocker, fall within their target audience. Just a guess...
  3. When are footballers role models? I do not believe that a footballer drink driving adds any sense of legitimacy to this behaviour - barring in the most perverse minds. It's different from celebrities taking illegal drugs because we know that there is a whole, entrenched culture of drug-taking which carries a rebellious, anti-establishment, "cool" image. A idiot celeb taking drugs will 'enhance' that image and making drug-taking more attractive for some people. However, drink-driving, as far as I know doesn't have that "cool" image. It's like domestic violence, in this sense. A footballer may be arrested for domestic violence but I don't think you can say that this encourages wife-beating amongst the public. Maybe I'm wrong and drink driving has got a "cool" status. I'm not that in tune with what revs hedonistic, superficial losers. But if it doesn't I say: Slam these footballers for acting in one the most extreme stupid, reckless and selfish ways one can act. But don't slam them any more than you'd slam any other lout.
  4. Which just underlines how good Hughes was compared to Souness. He had less money and he didn't inherit some genii like Duff and Jansen. Am I right in thinking that Souness' last game in charge was the 3-0 defeat to Arsenal? In which case, the first team that Hughes inherited was: Starting:Friedel, Neill, Short, Gray, Gresko, Emerton, Tugay, Johansson, Matteo, Dickov, Stead Bench: Enckelman, Amoruso, Flitcroft, De Pedro, Yorke
  5. What would enliven (okay, make more interesting) the Souey debate is if someone could give us a real insight into his performance as a boss on the Continent. We know the stats but what about the substace behind the stats. You could read Steve McClaren's Boro stats and believe him to be the Second Coming.
  6. Berner's gone and was shown up as a mediocre player. Which begs the question, why did he get the first team chance that Andy Taylor didn't? It all comes down to the prejudice that is seemingly indelibly engrained in football management - the mediocre experienced player is always a better option than the promising youngster. Never mind Berner's experience, caps et al, he was rubbish. If we've got, under our noses, academy graduate "rubbish" that have youth on their side to potential upgrade to "so so" - why do we sign - with money - foreign rubbish that have peaked and will never reach "so so"? No youngster would ever get the chance to make the number of mistakes for the first team that Mokoena has. EVER. It's not right. (Den, are you up for round 1233349013910293102930123?)
  7. What if that lucky break never comes? People seem to have a very naiive faith in probability - which also, incidentally, causes some to suggest that 'referee mistakes even themselves out over a season.' Lucky breaks do not always come and therefore, if the manager does not have a proactive policy of transitional selection of good young players, then their progress stagnates. THe more squad padders are signed, the less chance of lucky breaks. Players who have had lucky breaks in recent years are Matt Derbyshire, Jay McEveley and Jon Douglas (out of position so not that lucky). We're talking hypotheticals here, but I believe that it stands to reason that if these guys hadn't been blessed by injuries to others and got a run in the team, they would not be where they are now - one playing England U21 footy and the other two having featured in Senior International squads. None were extraordinarily special for the reserves, by all reports. So if you accept that a run with the first team can provide an invaluable boost to a player's career - which can be the difference between League 2 football (where McEveley was heading with his loaning club, Gillingham) and playing Premier League football, qualifying for a national team squad and earning a big money move - the question which must be asked, and I am fervently asking, can we leave this "invaluable confidence and developmental boost" that is first team involvement, to luck? Can we afford to leave this potent developmental instrument to whim of first team injury crises? Or do we harness it and systematically promote youth players for transitional selection and see how they develop? (Incidentally, Hughes' use of Olsson recently would appear to suggest that he is keen to give transitional selection to the guy, which is promising, but it has to be maintained And as far as I know, giving the inexperienced youngster a 15 min run out in a Premier League did not have apocalyptic effects).
  8. Berner hasn't made errors. Are you joking? He was turned to mince by Utaka and Mifsud this season. Why do you think Olsson's got the nod ahead of him recently? Hughes has clocked on that the guy - for all his technical ability and experience - is a liability due to his lack of pace. Whilst I am always eager to give new players/novices time to improve, the evidence doesn't look good - he's been axed from the Swiss squad, which should have the alarm bells ringing. And you accuse me of a circular argument - but for a second will you turn your ego inwards and consider the people who argue against me - you being one. Are you lot not equally ungiving, resolute and vehement in your counter-argument? Which is fine but why does that make me a dogmatic preacher of circularity and you not? Because rationality is on your side and not mine? - I beg to differ. Your post suggests that you have not read/understood my argument - which is more subtle than "play youngsters FULL STOP" or "Andy Taylor should be playing for Rovers now." To be honest, a messageboard is not a good medium for nuanced arguments because people wade in, all prejudices firing, without having read the preceding points - merely having got a gist. I admit to having done that on occasions. If your two further questions were meant to be jibes, I have to flatter you by saying that they did annoy me. I am a Rovers fan because I started supporting Rovers. And I do zilch to promote youth football in my local area. I guess you'll call me a hypocrite.
  9. How is Dwayne De Rosario doing these days? Did we miss out or get lucky that he didn't want the short-term deal?
  10. Philip, what you say about Pezzoni being slow is true. However, you are going into spin overdrive after that. Rovers didn't get rid of him because they thought he was crap - why don't we get rid of half (more) of the current reserve and academy side because many are worse and not standard for their U21 national sides. Pezzoni took a few days unauthorized holiday in Germany and this severely annoyed someone near the top (Downes/Hodges perhaps) because after that he was demoted for much of the time to playing with the U18s. So we had the situation where Pezzoni was called to the German U21 side and yet at Rovers he was playing with 16/17 year olds. Keita also fell out with management - he was stripped of the U18 side captaincy and dropped from the side. This was, allegedly, after he finally refused to take painkilling injections to play after taking them for a few weeks. He was also peeved that he wasn't even allowed to train with the reserve side despite being one of the better U18 players. The management issues with Keita and Pezzoni are not directly related to my argument about the best reserve players getting chances by right, I should add. So please no-one start screaming at me for arguing that U18 players should be starting for the Firsts. Someone, please, put your disdain for me aside for a second and support me in my claim that Steven Reid was goddam awful when he first arrived at the club. He was playing on the wings and he displayed zero technical ability, zero skill, zero crossing ability and many were calling for him to get the chop.
  11. Never mind Matt Derbyshire not starting, I think it's a disgrace that these guys aren't even on the bench. Promising youngsters overlooked Edit: Joke is somewhat lost because the link only takes you to a picture of Bentley (if it works at all because you may need offish log-in details) and does not take you directly to the picture of Matt Derbyshire holding his twins, bedeckt in Rovers colours.
  12. We're going around in circles. But because you and Den have asked again, I will reiterate my argument as concisely as possible. It seems impossible that we can agree. I do not believe that Taylor should be playing for the first team now ahead of Warnock. I do not believe that he is a great Premiership player overlooked. What I do believe, is that given the chance to make appearances as Martin Olsson is doing now, he would have developed his confidence and consequently his game would have improved and we COULD (no guarentees whatsoever) have had a useful, homegrown, promising squad player left back on our hands. Young players have time and time again shown that concerted exposure at first team level can transform them - mainly through immense confidence boosts. Matt Derbyshire was a lightweight plucky forward who was rated alongside Jemal Johnson and not a soul was perceptive (brave) enough to call for his promotion. However, given a surprise game or two with the firsts, a goal, and he developed rapidly to being the useful squad player he is now. This transformation does not happen overnight and is not guarenteed for every player. However, the best reserve players should be identified and given the chance to taste the "elixir of confidence" (in want of a more pompous/dubious phrase) that is first team action. This has to be done gradually but consistently, so as not to expose them when their nerves are most frayed. And it is not just youth players. Look at Aaron Mokoena. He arrived playing like Darren Peacock. But with games, sub appearances, a cushy role in a catenaccio side, his confidence grew and his game improved (albeit still inadequate imo). His confidence grew so much - that he showed signs of delusion in expressing his displeasure at not getting more starts! To give a few youth players gradual exposure, as Hughes is doing with Olsson, does not come at a great cost. If used in the correct circumstances playing them can be beneficial to the side. [Obviously, it is impractical to give these opportunities that every player in the reserve side]. The consequences can incredibly beneficial for the club if the player grows in confidence like Derbyshire did. And even if he doesn't impress greatly like McEveley and Jemal Johnson, the fact he has Prem experience will increase his sale value. Finally, I admit to hardly having seen Taylor play (a few times playing for ENgland U19s). But, as ridiculous as it may seem, that's not important to my argument. What is important is that Taylor was rated by Hughes to the extent of receiving a extended contract. He was rated by Glynn Hodges to the extent he was made captain of the reserves with whom he played consistently well for a number of seasons. He was rated by Dario Gradi to the extent they wanted to sign him for a season loan. He impressed Simon Grayson at Blackpool who was keen to purchase him. He had promise and was one of the best reserve players. This fact should've been enough for him to get a chance to back-up the firsts - unless Hughes was going to sign a genuinely superior and valuable left back - but that Bruno Berner is not.
  13. I'm surprised that you see no future for Fielding. I'm think he'll probably go with Wycombe for another season but the club rate him highly, so it would take something extraordinary to let him. You say that Rovers cannot afford to allow youngsters to learn their trade with the first team. That, imo, is seriously short-sighted, backward even, thinking. Barring the exceptional talents - the Rooneys - the mere mortal youth players suffer nerves when making their debut and the next few games. This hinders their performance. So if you are not going to let youth players have cameo appearances to overcome their nerves and assert their self-confidence, then there is no hope that any will make it through. You are effectively arguing for the academy and reserve team to be disbanded and any gaps in the first team to be filled by short-term Bosman deals in the Sam Allardyce style of multinational, agent-infested, short-termist management. If we apply your philosophy to international football, you are advocating that England stick with the experienced - Becks, Lampard, Gerrard....even Heskey. And players like Bentley should be left out. After all, the inexperienced will need to 'learn their trade' and grow accustomed to international football with competitive games and England can't afford that. Different circumstances but same idea.
  14. Parsonblue, I agree with everything you've said there. Neilsen, Olsson, Judge ... you might agree to including Nolan. And I think Fielding should be included for his outstanding season with Wycombe. None of these guys can expect to start a first team game, of course, that would be far-fetched. However, if they maintain their form next season, do you not think that, fitness permitting, Hughes should consider them as back-up to the first team? Do you agree, then, that we should not sign experienced but mediocre players to back up the squad in the areas that the above 'elite' [in want of a better word] youth players play? Sure, if a talented player becomes available, Hughes would be right to sign him but a Bruno Berner who can play right wing? Or a Aaron Mokoena standard centre back? No. Let the above provide back-up, unless real and clearly superior talent is available. That is the crux of my 'outrageous' argument.
  15. Just to put my comments into context, my criticism of Hughes approach is not fundamental to his management. I accept that to give or to not give reasonable youth players an opportunity to establish themselves as squad players and then first teamers does not define the success of this club. It's not like suppressing the talents of a Damien Duff. Andy Taylor got squad experience in that he travelled with the firsts. However, what I mean, is that he deserved to play the role that Bruno Berner is playing now. I.e Deputy to Warnock. RE your second point, Darren Fletcher is undoubtedly more talented than Taylor. However, talent requirements at different clubs are relative. The requirements of a Man U squad player are far higher than the requirements of a Rovers squad player. To put my argument in a hypothetical contemporary context - Hughes should not sign a 29 year old freebie Swiss former international right midfielder of dubious talent to back-up David Bentley. We should not go for squad padding. Either we sign a real deal top or very promising player or we give Alan Judge a chance. That's my stance.
  16. Andy Taylor DESERVED squad experience because he was one of the best of our reserve side and had made good impacts at lower league clubs that suggested he had potential. Only at Huddersfield, where the team was struggling under Peter Jackson, did Taylor struggle a little - but he still contributed a number of assists in a dismally performing side. (At QPR he was only brought in to play one game or so). Taylor was probably not ready for first team action but he deserved to be given a chance as Warnock's deputy to further his development technically but more importantly, confidence-wise. He deserved an opportunity to prove himself as a squad player. My firm belief is that the Rovers first team management should be OBLIGED to give the best reserve players a chance with the firsts to mould them into squad players. We all know that the club does not have worldies bubbling away underneath - but we have raw promise and unless that talent is harnessed, worked on, actively promoted, it will fizzle away to stagnation. The management should earn their money by MAKING use of the elite amongst the reserve players, who are currently wasted resources. The management persevere with new signings - why not youth players? Steven Reid was not good enough to be considered a good Prem player when he arrived, but the management persevered with him and MADE use of his talent. Same with Mokoena, same with Pedersen, same with Emerton (barring debut). I also cite Alex Ferguson. Man U does not produce homegrown genii these days, but Ferguson has exploited reasonable talent in Darren Fletcher, John Curtis, Jonathan Greening, Phil Bardsley etc. These guys are clearly sub Man U standard but Ferguson has still given them a go and made use of them and they have contributed positively to Man U before being sold off. WHat about Jay McEveley? Clearly sub Rovers standard but did he not contribute usefully to Rovers by being given a chance to develop his confidence with the firsts, not least of all in the money we attained for him? The bottom line is, we do not have great youth players. However, we have some guys with decent promise but the cautious approach, paranoid about inexperience, the sort of approach that prefers a lumbering no hoper like Mokoena, is strangling their hopes. This is not just happening at Rovers but up and down the Premier league. I ask you, why the hell did Man City sell Ishmael Miller in preference to Caicedo and that Castillo? International caps> And if Sven had had his way, Joe Hart would probably be out on loan somewhere because he wanted to splash big on a spanking new keeper.
  17. Congratulations to Andy Taylor who was named Tranmere Rovers' Young Player of the Season. Whatever anyone says about Taylor's lack of pace and physical strength - I think Hughes was totally wrong to dump him for the luminous experience of Bruno Berner. Classic case of the availability of freebie mediocre experience stymieing young talent. Taylor was no and will never be a world beater. He was just a young lad with promise who had done his time on loan and for the reserves and deserved to be given a chance to establish himself as a squad player. Hughes gave McEveley a chance, Mokoena many chances, Berner a chance - why not Taylor? Because he no top level experienced. Which begs the question, how can he accumulate experience?
  18. Steve McClaren won the League Cup with Boro. Not to mention taking them to the UEFA Cup finals, FA Cup semis twice and brought through young English players. Do you think he's a good manager? And as for Souness' playing career - irrelevant. I think we should distinguish between two claims. (a) Was Souness good for us - overall - YES. (B.) Is he a 'good' manager objectively speaking, compared to the whole stock of managers out there? I.e Would a Premier League club seriously consider him as a first or second choice manager if the incumbent departed? - NO. That's not a contradiction. Think Jon Stead, Shefki Kuqi, Michael Ricketts etc. etc.
  19. That's true enough. However, for the silverware Souey won at Liverpool, he failed there. Liverpool fans do not rate him at all - an understatement. I have to admit that my argument against Souey has a large lacuna in that I do not know the details of his achievements/failures abroad. To get a comprehensive understanding of his record, this is kind of crucial - and not just a list of achievements but an understanding of how he went about the job, the circumstances and how he was rated by the fans. But I've got to say, Benfica and Galatasaray - even Rangers - are massive oligopolists in their respective countries, with a stranglehold on finances and fans. To win a few trophies at these clubs is usually par for the course. If I'm not mistaken, Souey left Benfica and Gala having not met the expectations of the clubs. Whether those expectations were overambitious (as Souness claims) I do not know. One thing that I must say is - I do not know how a manager who admits to not having much by the way of tactical knowledge can succeed on the continent. They are mad on tactics there. (Just to add, Souness European travels as a manager were aided, no doubt, by his reputation as a great player - many managers don't have this benefit despite being fully qualified for jobs abroad (nor the benefit of being best pals with a "superagent").
  20. Taken from the pompey v rovers preview thread: Peter Reid saved a free-falling Sunderland from relegation to the old Div 2. The next season they won the league in spectacular style and were promoted to the Premiership. In the Prem, he helped them to TWO seventh placed finishes before everything crashed and burnt. Apart from a league cup win, that record stands as good as, if not better than Souness'. And I don't really think you can hail Souey's league cup win as a great, decisive achievement considering the relatively easy path we had and the fact that a number of mediocre sides have won it or at least got to the finals. I accept that Steve McClaren took over a secure Boro side but still, his achievement of winning the League Cup, taking Boro to 7th in the league, FA Cup semis twice, UEFA Cup FINAL! put his achievements alongside that of SOuness at Rovers. He is, no doubt, the most successful Boro manager in recent history. If you look at Souness' record objectively and compare it with other supposedly bad or discredited managers, you see that his achievements are not vastly superior. His success at Rovers is comparable to that of Peter Reid and no-one rates Reid as a decent manager, not even SUnderland fans, although no doubt that respect some of his achievements. Sam Allardyce's achievement with Bolton, where he had neither the money nor the inheritance of a set of superb young players (Duff, Dunn and Jansen), clearly outshines Souness' record. The fact is Souness was crucial to rescuing us from the doldrums and he did some good things for us. A little like how Jon Stead rescued us with his goals from relegation. However, I would neither call Souness or Stead a good Premier League manager or player. The circumstances were appropriate for them to shine but the exigency passed and so did their suitability. I appreciate what he did for us. As I appreciate that Brian Kidd signed Matt Jansen for us. As I appreciate Roy Hodgson taking us into Europe. As I appreciate Lorenzo AMoruso for helping us stay up. However, in judging Souness, I am trying to be objective and ignoring any emotive feelings. Thus, I am trying to ignore the fact I support Rovers and the manner in which he left us.
  21. The saddest thing is that there are fans who use this messageboard who are happy to criticise Keith Treacy for not reaching the mark on his debut, whilst remain absolutely quiet re Mokoena and his growing list of blunders. That's what you call hypocricy and embarrassing levels of pride. It's no coincidence that the people who are staying quiet on Mokoena are those who were arguing vehemently that he's a decent Premier LEague holding midfielder. Just glancing through the earlier posts on this thread, posters such as Philipl, Scotty and Fife Rover were all challenging me and arguing that Mokoena is a good, useful player, deserving of his extended contract. Have you guys changed your mind and realised that he was a Jon Stead - an inadequate player who did a job in the circumstances but by no means should remain for too long?
  22. The role's not easy but one of the least demanding. Of course, Makelele, Hargreaves, Mascherano are fantastic players because not only do they have the basic attributes of stamina, pace, strength, endeavour BUT they also have close control, flair, short and long-range passing ability, vision, creativity, - in fact, wasn't Claude Makelele once a winger! However, Emerton can do a good job there because the role does not require you to have great attacking skills. Emerton has minimal vision, creativity or attacking guile but he has strong physical attributes and decent technique. The holding midfielder has time on the ball because he occupies that vacuum pocket in front of the back four. He can make short, undemanding passes (sideways/backwards) and concentrate on tackling and tracking back. And the thing is, if you make an error, you usually have four defenders behind you who might just save your skin. If you're a defender, an error is much more likely to lead to an opposition goal. The fact is, Mokoena has made himself look reasonable by occupying the least demanding role on a footy pitch. And he still manages to mess up - the guy's huge but he can't head a ball. I cannot believe how lenient Rovers fans are of Mokoena. He was very culpable for Man U's goal, and he was marking a much shorter man but still did his dying swan attempt at clearing the cross. (I assume he was meant to be marking Scholes, as he was the closest to him).
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