yes I have Jimbo and yes I do. And you will know the great oxymoron about Military Intelligence. And I get the bus every day with lots of asian blokes wearing puffer jackets, and the dangers as great here in brum as down in London, plus we dont have the safety in numbers that you have down in London up here in the sticks. Also did you do a tour in NI (I guess you did unless you were effing lucky) did you go on the decision trainer - Ie the SAT range with Feinians instead of russians? How many did you kill on that, or did you get it right every time at the correct time? Can you argue why Lee Clegg should have gone to jail as he broke the RoE or not. And did you play civ pop in the urban training? Ive still got the plastic bullets from mine

green with envy here - what were Bretts views on teh cricket? and did you remind him that he could run down the touchline with the ball?

I still note that Blue Phil has managed to avoid answering anyquestions put to him a day or so ago. Surprising eh. And Jimbo, if you want to volunteer to go protect us from suicide bombers go and join the met, and demand to be put on the front line. See how you cope. I love these people who are brave to criticise the security services and the police forces, safely hidden at home in front of their monitors, secure in the knowledge that they'll never have to actuall leave home and try and improve society. Much easier to stay inside and moan and do nothing for the "society" they say is being destroyed by outsiders. More likely apathy from within to be honest. Anyway Im off to avoid tornados in south birmingham for a bit.

Oh god I have visions of Pigeons carrying porn mags, and the LET to us desperate emigrants

a more serious point is that although the internet is huge, whatwe dont know is how good Echelon is.

ooo theres a good debating point. no is my opinion - where would i get all the cheap porn or follow rovers so easily? or maybe we should ban computers, or ban electricity - all aid the internet.

God bless Perry - and Scrubs is now available on DVD - get it through the Amazon links on this site

Really - still avoiding answering any points too arent you. You amuse me.

You dont know if they're incompetent, you just know what has been reported in the press - if they followed procedures they arent incompetent - and if they were trigger happy they would have shot him straight away, not after a chase as trigger happy means opening fire as soon as the target is seen, not as seems to be the case so that every shot counts (all 8 of them) ie from right by the target (the most accurate way to shoot something) but I dont expect you to know anything about that Phil, because that would mean that it doesnt fit into your very small blinkered world. Sorry unfair comment removed

See as i predicted just call me Mystic Flopsy

Taylor looks and runs like a young craig short (well he did last year) he played left back but can play anywhere on the back 4 at the moment

least im not the only one having problems with keyboards at the moment

It is not okay to shoot anyone because they run away, however, (and Den is right my mind is closed on this, as is everyone elses - ive given my reasons why) if tehy suspect he was a suicide bomber then they are quite in their right to shoot him. Also the reason they probably didnt shoot him in the street, is because a) They would probably missed - has anyone here fired a 9mm pistol ? Training helps but by design its fairly inaccurate over 25 yards especially if the target is running. Much better to use the MP5 Carbine, however harder to stick in a holster in your belt - therefore they have to open fire with out causing danger to the public. (This is a guess as all speculation - including the stuff int he papers) That they were chasing him to arrest him, but then he jumped the barrier into the tube and then it was an all new ball game. I agree 5 rounds in the head is slightly OTT (well a lot actually) but if he was a bomber you have to make sure they are dead and that means till movement stops because until then they can set of teh triger. I hope that explains my position and probably the thinking process for the police. Then again your probably right. But if i hear "continuing their shoot to kill policy" on the radio anymore i'll hit someone - The polcie have always had a shoot to kill policy - you shoot someone in the chest or head - because that puts them down quickly

maybe they tried to stop him out side the hosue and he ran, or they were following him, saw he was heading for the tube and tried to stop him, and then he ran. I dont think the police messed up I think the the brazilian did. And as for the police making them selves known - if they're doing stakeout it might be a bit obvious with blokes walking around with Police Helmets. Do agree that they should have been wearing the armed squad's baseball caps when chasing. Its a shame but you'll find me not sympathetic

Scotty they couldnt open fire at a running target because of the danger of missing, or hitting but the bullet passing through the target and hitting an innocent bysatnder. Having a solid backstop is whats neccessary. Please dont get me wrong, it is a tradgedy and im very sorry for the guys family and him, but the facts appear to be that he didnt stopped when told. In this present climate unfortunately that means he was treated as a danger to innocent lives and treated accordingly.

Oh come on Stu - that would mean hed have a reasoned argument - instead he'll find something in one of our replies and use that to go off on a tangent trying to draw attention away from the fact that he hasnt answered any of our questions or justified his previous comments - its impressive to watch him try and wriggle out - he should run for office

Oh and another thing (sorry but this has got my goat) but now its more likely that Police will waver about making a decision about shooting or not shooting - and if that allows a bomber to get away or detonate - you can not come on here and criticize the police - not after your previous statement. And as for not trusting the security services or government - what do you suggest we do. Oh wait - deport anyone non white or non christian.

Naiviety about the police - I doubt it, ive done some training with Armed units with my time as a part time squaddy and the last thing they want to do is shoot someone if they can avoid it. And you Phil seem to be very keen to jump on peoples backs when you have no experience no reference to what the Police are going through at this present time. You are one of these people who ###### and moan about everything, but the minute you need the police and they arent there instantaneously your on the blower to Talksport/Sun/Mirror moaning about their incompetence. Before July the 7th if you ran, you wouldnt be shot - now with the threat of a C4 waistcoat (thats plastic explosive or things that go BOOM as you seem to be having difficulty grasping basics at present) - you are a definite risk to life and will be taken down. If this bloke had been a bomber and had been allowed to run, and then detonated his device on a tube. YOU would be the first one here criticizing the police and security services. By all acounts the bloke spoke english quite well and unfortunately died. HE SHOULD NOT HAVE RUN

He'd been here for 3 years and spoke quite good english. Some points for those who havent used firearms - been involved in something like this. 1) Rules Of Engangement - The bit that says if you can or can not open fire - Usually (Well for Northern Ireland and for the police pre 7/7) can only open fire if clear warning is given and the person is posing a clear and present danger to you or others. A suspected suicide bomber running towards a train is posing a clear and present danger. So he was innocent - tough ###### - he ran - he ignored shouted instruction - he acted guilty - he died from lead poisoning toughsky 2) Shooting to disarm/disable - A bit of holywood im afraid - you are trained to go for centre of body mass (easiest target to hit) you cant try and go for disabling shots - you'll miss - Watch CopyCat with Holly Hunter and Sigorni (sp) Weaver a damn good example of why, if you use a fire arm you shoot to kill. 3) Shooting in the head - they might be wearing bodyarmour - they might only be injured - they might still have chance to pull a bomb trigger - therefore the best way to quickly disable and immobilise a suicide bomber is to SHOOT THEM IN THE HEAD problem solved instantly no longer a problem. Also shooting someone in the body who's wearing an plastic explosive vest might get metaphysical very quickly. So in conclusion, an innocent person died, but the police seem to be quite within their right to do so. And if this poor copper gets crucified for it, expect all armed officers to down weapons and refuse to take them out with them on patrol - then wait for the howls of horror form some of the ones currently having a good go at people who have to work understress that they will never ever ever have to deal with. arseholes

I love Point 6

except walloping the aussies though good days

I fear that SteB's nelly the elephant has been lost for good (thank god)

well excuses there's no justification really is there

nah we'd have the Pressure cooker that is france brewing along nicely

ARMED POLICE STOP OR I SHOOT STOP OR I SHOOT ARMED POLICE STOP OR I SHOOT STOP OR I SHOOT ARMED POLICE STOP OR I SHOOT STOP OR I SHOOT If no reaction after been shouted 3 times and the officer thinks there is an imediate risk to his or the publics safety he is quite in his right to shoot someone. A bloke running onto a train after ignoring that stuff in the climate London is in, looking as suspicious as by all accounts he did then im sorry. I d have pulled the trigger. However 5 shots in the head says to me that it wasnt a police officer, more likely SF