Yeah I think the big difference with this latest chapter in ball tampering is the top to bottom collusion and premeditated nature of it. Yes Atherton rubbing dirt into the ball in the heat of the moment was a poor show but he didn’t have to go to b&q to make it happen then hold a team meeting to enforce it. 

For years and year unfathomably the Australians have held themselves up as moral bastions of the sport. Despite continually going against the spirit of the game if not until now the rules. They invented not walking and pretty much invented sledging as we know it. Across various eras they had infamous sledgers Rod marsh, merv Hughes, Dennis lillee, Shane warne, waugh bros, McGrath, Ian Healy, the list is endless. Obviously none of those overstepped their definition of the line just the players who gave it back. 

In hindsight with their win at all costs, gamesmanship it wasn’t too much of a stretch to full blown cheating. That said, perhaps naively, I never suspected they cheated in this ashes but I did wonder why jimmy, one of the games finest swing bowlers, couldn’t get the ball to move whereas Starc was making it dance. I put it down to the different ball, home conditions, jimmy on the wane but now I’m questioning every result they’ve had under Lehmann and smith. 

Arguably the best thing to come out of this is the Australians will never live it down, they will never put themselves on a moral pedestal or chip in their two penny’s worth on every issue under the sun that doesn’t suit their agenda. At least I bloody hope they won’t. 

4 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

In my playing days it was always the bowlers who mucked around with the ball. Picking at the seam was favourite. It seems inconceivable to me that 3 batsmen should decide to alter the ball without the knowledge of the bowlers. 

In my opinion unthinkable the bowlers knew nothing about this. 

But as someone commented: if cricket Australia are to be believed that it was only 3 batsmen who knew about the ball tampering designed to help the bowling attack. Then I feel truly sorry for Mitchell Starc because all this time the poor bugger has genuinely believed he’s Wasim Akram.

34 minutes ago, Husky said:

I'd chose anyone here to play instead of 'grandad' Cook.

 

 . . . even the grandads here

All good things come to an end. At the moment it’s feast of famine with cook. And a lot lot lot more famine. If take his last 17 innings (vs nz, Australia, windies) he’s averaged 40. Not too shabby on the face of it but doesn’t quite tell the full story. He’s basically had 2 daddy 100s and naff all else.

I’ve always thought to judge form over a short period a players median score is a better indicator of what score your most likely to get than an average. His last 17 innings have been 2, 2, 2, 5, 7, 7, 10, 10, 11, 14, 16, 17, 23, 37, 39, 243, 244. So his median score is 11. Frankly on current form definitely more likely to see an 11 than the average of 40 suggests.

This made me laugh:

Oh...Davie Warner’s Aussie
He wears the baggy green
He dribbles like a caveman
His behaviour’s quite obscene
He’s rather fond of Candy
She gives him such a thrill
But when he offers her de Kock
She begs for Sonny Bill!”

Warner may never get to hear the barmy army serenading him with that. But that said he’s no loss to the game. 

I feel no sympathy for smith. In fact I thoroughly enjoyed him squirm. Even after admitted cheating post match he was so cock sure of himself. I believe the tears are more to do with the fact they've been caught and the Australian public have said what they think than actually being sorry. In my opinion pure self pity.

Had they not been caught business as usual. Ie. Cheating. No remorse. No regrets. 

ICC give smith a one match ban. Presumably limited by what they can do with a level 2 offence. 

Over to cricket Australia to hand down a suitable punishment. Hopefully they will otherwise will get tarred with the same brush. 

This ko last night is as conclusive as I’ve ever seen. 

Piggy and Warner step down for rest of the test match and piggy has been sacked from IPL team. The icc need to grow a pair and hand down big punishments for once. 

Cricket Australia should sack them if they have any sense or even morals. Lehmann needs sacking as he clearly knew as he used the walkie talkie to speak to the 12th man who then spoke to Bancroft. Rotten organisation. 

The hypocrisy and double standards of cricket Australia has wound me up decades. Kholi must have a wry smile as they got word from dressing room to use drs on him. So now they can get off their sanctimonious pedestal. Cheating and gamesmanship while slating anyone who does the same.

Smith and Warner particularly abuse everyone, the latter portrays himself as some hard man and moans like a little bitch as soon as anyone says anything to him. They get some back like in the tunnel in the last test and it’s like they are a bunch of angels who never say or do anything.

About time they were dragged off their high horse. Enjoying their demise!!!

6 hours ago, Baz said:

Just turned on the NZ test, there is literally 200 people max in the stadium - the vast majority of them the barmy army.

Is there a reason why?

I was also wondering why it’s been so poorly attended. So looked into it a bit and test cricket turn out is frightfully low in New Zealand. 3,500 turned up vs West Indies in Hamilton. That’s a tally of all days (day 1-1196, day 2-1186 day 3-686, day 4-394). Similar vs Pakistan. Similar vs South Africa. 

In the bigger picture I think test cricket is struggling globally outside of England. Our last series vs India away wasn’t full by any stretch and they’re cricket mad. Why? Who knows. For what it’s worth I believe people, particularly younger people, have shorter attention spans and can’t be bothered with the nuances of test cricket and would much rather go down the Big Mac meal road of t20 cricket. The instant gratification generation. 

Piggy smith was, is and always will be a tosser of the highest order. Just when didn’t think this series could have any more needle today happens. The nonsense piggy was coming out with after rabada’s ban was overturned was typical of the man. 

He tried to check whether he should refer an LBW with the dressing room. And now has been outed (by himself) as a cheat. 

Bit of a different press conference from Smith and Bancroft in hysterics in the ashes. Pair of knobs. 

It's so good to think he may finally get some comeuppance. Until they don’t...

Nasser Hussain hits the nail on the head:

“The Australian camp has been lecturing people over the last few months on how the game should be played, and a line that shouldn't be crossed. Well, it looks like that Australian hierarchy are on the wrong side of the line here”

“Some of the stuff that has come out of the Australian camp, especially, has been laughable.”

"Warner has gone round the world sledging people. He then gets it back from De Kock, and he and the Australian camp suddenly decide that a line has been crossed. I don't know who the Australians are to tell you what that line is and who has crossed that line.

“It has bubbled up again in the last couple of days, because Warner got it badly, terribly from the South African crowd - I don't agree with any of this - and again Lehmann thinks another line has been crossed.

"You can't do that. Here is a coach that, in 2013, stated that every Australian fan should send Stuart Broad home crying and should sledge him. Now he is saying crowds shouldn't sledge. There seem to be double standards.”

Well smith and Bancroft admitted to ball tampering. Let’s start with a 5 year ban for those and work from there. 

They are so brazen. Can’t believe the statement they have made. “Actions were planned by the payers during the lunch break” “we thought it would give us an advantage”. Yeah, cheating normally does lads.

I tell you what if this was Pakistan they’d be banned from test cricket. Such hypocrites. All that business with Stuart broad not walking when Australian bill lawry started that trend in the 60s.

They and their media think it’s one rule for them and rules for everyone else. Hope the icc hit them hard (which they won’t). 

The irony is Steve Smith went bananas last winter about Faf having a sweet in his mouth and the saliva to produce more shine. (Something they later admitted doing themselves) 

Will be an interesting press conference with the convicts and their double standards. 

Tut tut tut. Convicts up to their old cheating ways.

Bancroft banged to rights on some outrageous ball tampering. Goes miles beyond athertons sand or the old suncream from the face to the ball. Only question is he acting alone or are Lehman, Steve smith, etc involved.

I’d finish his career over this. Not having that. Ban-Croft!!!!

On 23/03/2018 at 12:39, speeeeeeedie said:

That is unfortunately true. England doesn't produce enough world class players. I'm sure the powers that be have debated long and hard as to why. Is it facilities? Mentality? Weather? Set up?

My hope is that it's all changing though. Take out Cahill and Hart and this England crop is the youngest in a long time. Couple this with the youth teams' successes last year should build a platform to improve.

 

Probably a combination of those things. Also I think it has a lot to do with the amount of English players playing top division football. Some will say the cream will always rise to the top but I don’t think they do. Far easier to chuck in a cheap import who’s ready to go than allow an English player to develop. 

The youth exploits are exiting but how many are playing week in week out. I don’t know but I’d wager not many. That’s our biggest problem as I see it

As for today I was gutted when I was offered a ticket but couldn’t go as I thought beating the Irish at twickenham to hopefully win the grand slam on st paddy’s day would be a hoot.

Now on paddy’s day they arrive to twickenham as champions and I’m sure for them there would be no better place to win the grand slam. Let’s hope we can spoil the party to some degree...

I’m not that bothered by bonus points if encourages attacking rugby. Although I’m not entirely sure it does as England demonstrated in Paris when knew needed 4 tries before ko and still were happy going for 3 pts. Plus it certainly doesn’t work in England’s favour when every team has their World Cup final vs us. Scotland, for eg, went through brick walls vs England then rolled over vs Ireland.

You’re right with away games. This year ironically should have been England’s (English arrogance coming in a bit here considering 2/3 defeats and already lost it) but with the state of France theoretically 3 easier away games then two home games. The flip side of that coin is next year Italy/Scotland/France at home and wales/Ireland away that’s a tough ask biennially.

To develop the game I’d defo look at 2 6 nations type leagues. Make them feel more part of the bigger picture. Rugby seems to be on the up in Georgia. I would love an away day in tbilisi. They get some decent crowds, have dominated the European b champions league thing over the last decade and have credible wins over likes of Fiji, Tonga, Samoa. However, the problem remains I don’t think they’ve ever beaten a decent rugby nation. Nor are likely to on a consistent basis. 

So if there was a promotion/relegation into 6 nations it would just be Italy and Georgia swapping places and occasionally Romania getting up for one year. 

Booked our flights/hotels for Sri Lanka this November after the tour dates were eventually announced. Luckily both galle and Kandy are back to back tests so get to do them both. 

West Indies and Sri Lanka usually sandwich a shit venue in between the popular ones so was fully expecting Colombo to be the middle test (well I say shithole all things relative not exactly Burnley).  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43240056

Typical jocks. Forget carrying on like they’d won the World Cup after the match I only hope stuff like this is played to subsequent English teams to make sure it doesn’t happen for another decade. 

Re Stokes. I can’t understand the ECB really they don’t let him play pending a criminal charge. Ok fine. But then once was actually charged with affray (very lucky not to be gbh considering he broke the guys eye socket) they then decide he can play.

Could be a mess this. It’ll start in the magistrates, where he will be able to enter a plea. If he doesn’t enter a plea or not guilty plea the magistrates will decide whether their sentencing powers are sufficient (maximum 6 months in jail). If they are satisfied this is sufficient it’s up to all the defendants to decide whether or not to go to the crown court before a judge and jury. Increased sentence vs increased opportunity to be found not guilty (he’s famous so same rules don’t apply). 

If enters an early guilty plea he will be entitled to 1/3 off whatever sentence. But most are arrogant sportsman and with a fancy QC I’m guessing he’ll enter no plea. Elect to go to the crown court where the codefendants will be lambasted and the jury will be swayed by a famous face. But that'll take another 9 months or so  

I’d be more impressed with him if he pleads guilty at the mags with no previous, convictions, credit for guilty plea, shows immediate contrition, he’s professionally been punished and probably end up with community service (he’s famous). Make no mistake if it was me or anyone on here I/we would more than likely already been charged get 4 months served 2 and be out already.

As is Vince who will no doubt play like bradman for 20 runs before nicking one to slip off boult or southee    

England Test squad

Joe Root
Moeen Ali 
James Anderson
Jonny Bairstow
Stuart Broad
Alastair Cook
Mason Crane
Ben Foakes
Liam Livingstone
Dawid Malan
Craig Overton
Ben Stokes
Mark Stoneman
James Vince
Chris Woakes
Mark Wood

So Ball, Curran, Ballance out Livi, Wood, stokes in. 

7 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

True but we had pace and bounce in Tremlett and Finn. 

But Anderson was younger and quicker..wasnt he bowling around 90mph back then?

@Baz and @matt83 can I asked what you squad or starting line up would be for the New Zealand test series?

Since this summer alone we’ve had 7 debutants non of whom have played 10 games and some of whom will never play again. So In spite the shambles of this series I would still be reluctant to chuck more new names in and wholesale changes just yet. I’d just drop Vince who I think has technical issues to work on and would struggle more on green nz pitches.

So pending injuries, illnesses, nightclub brawls I’d go with:

1 Cook 2 Stoneman 3 Hales 4 Root 5 Malan 6 Bairstow 7 Stokes 8 Ali 9 Woakes 10 Broad 11 Jimmy

I always thought we pulled the chain on hales too early but I appreciate he hardly set the world alight last time and will 100% not be selected. 

I would also make it clear to the senior players cook, broad, Ali that they are not undroppable and are on report so to speak. New Zealand is a different kettle of fish and probably won’t learn a great deal over a 2 match series one of which is a pink ball at a tiny test ground. I would also not be writing off the likes of crane etc by any means.

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I was happy with the bowling with Overton and Curran and their talent there. Do you agree @matt83?

From what I’ve seen I’ve neither been impressed nor unimpressed by either of them. Can’t honestly say I’ve felt Curran or Overton have posed much of a threat but that’s not to say they can’t be effective over here or elsewhere.

I think we have a core of players who are all much of a muchness. Finn/Roland-Jones/Wood weren't available or selected. So Ball played first game then got injured, Overton played next two then out and Curran has had the last 2 games. It’s a merry go round of equally average bowlers.

Over the last decade we have capped all sorts of players for a few games who don’t seem to do any better or worse than their predecessor then are never seen again. Currently giving Curran and Overton a go but in recent times we’ve experimented with Roland-jones (is he now done), Jake ball (is he now finished), Wood, and further back onions/Jordan/rankin all had a brief run. So are the current flavours of the week any different to the others, I’m not so sure.

Same with the batsmen mentioned there is a huge step up to test cricket as ballance knows. They’ll no doubt get chucked in for a bit then never seen again. Westley, robson, Jennings, ambrose, duckett, lyth, Compton, carberry. 

As for the batting. We were shit in India last year, we were fairly inconsistent over summer and then this. Short of options and hoping not to return the dark days of new teams every series.

I think Malan did himself some favours here. Vince does the same thing every time he bats. Gets to 20, looks great then can’t resist a waft outside offstump. He must have been caught behind the wicket in 85% of his test innings. Still questions about 2 and 3. Cook has had one good innings and unless he’s milestone orientated might sack it all off. They’ll keep Stoneman I would think there is no one else but the whack on the head weighing on him. Ballance may get another change to bomb. 

Feels like there are more questions than answers at the moment. 

4 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Crane bowled well at times and looks like he will be playing at this level for years.

Matt, we havent had the bowlers for the conditions from day 1. We dont produce enough quick bowlers. 

I expect Vince and Ballance to be dropped from the New Zealand.

With Lawrence and Livingstone coming in the squad. 

I would pick 5 pace bowlers. Those would be Anderson, Broad, Curran, Overton and Garton. 

Rest Woakes and Wood get them fit for the summer.

Crane and Leach should be the 2 spinners. 

I think jimmy has shown pace isn't everything as the only bowler to come out with any credit. He has been on his own really he has bowled a lot more than anyone else and gone for about 2.5 an over. Also I’d wager likes of Philander would have taken a load or at least created pressure and made mistakes for others to take advantage of. And that was our problem the Australians only had to see off jimmy then filled their boots with the rest, creating no pressure. 

In truth, we never once looked like taking 20 wickets this series. Don’t have enough bowlers that can make things happen when conditions don’t suit us. And the reality is Englishmen predominantly bowling in England will rarely produce 90mph bowlers as you’re often better served taking pace off and letting the Ball do a bit.

We’ve definitely missed stokes. Broad has been useless and Ali has gone from hero to zero since summer. We’ll stick with our favoured 5 of jimmy, broad, stokes, woakes, Ali do ok in New Zealand and then against India/Pakistan in our conditions and all this will be forgotten about. Next time we travel anywhere decent though it’ll be more of the same....