46 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

We need 4 points from the last 6 to match the side Coyle had in terms of points accumulated.

Correction. This was the points total of the caretaker manager Tony Mowbray whose side got to 51 points and accumulated them at a rate associated to a team in mid table to get there. Coyle was on for a much lower points total.

Just now, RoversClitheroe said:

You're completely avoiding my point. You only hear what you want to hear. No one is blaming Dack. 

Everyone rightly so blames Mowbray and his team selection and tactics. Which he had got wrong time and time again. Not playing to our best players style.

No, I understood your point but decided to flip it because you can’t have it both ways. You can’t lambast the manager for not changing things and then blame the form of our talisman on that team. A team he had previously thrived in. A team which is and always has been built to accommodate him. 

Why cant you see that there’s the slightest possibility that the team started to suffer because the star man decided to concentrate more on his new flame than his performances? The team hadn’t changed...I watch them home and away. The team don’t make him misplace 5yrd passes or miss guilt edged chances or look like he has two size 5 mitre deltas in the back of his shorts....

Just now, arbitro said:

But could the likes of Smallwood and Williams earn what we are paying them given they are essentially League One at best. That's why I'm saying they could sit on their contracts and take the money. Even sending them out on loan would cost us. I'm not bracketing them with the big earners of yesteryear but the process of getting rid might be the same given the security they have.

And don't forget we will have Hart, Grayson, Wharton and Fisher back and I have a recollection of the first three being given new deals this season too.

I personally think Williams could play for another Championship club. I’d play him every week over Bell as it is. Richie may struggle and end up in league 1. But those players only have another year after this season anyway. If we’re going for it and decide to sell Williams to a Millwall for £250k and loan Smallwood to a top half league 1 team for 50% of his wages then it’s not a big deal imo. 

Just now, Mattyblue said:

I’ve not actually asked for him to be sacked or voted on this thread because I know he won’t be. I’ve certainly not given any thought to a replacement. What’s the point?

So I’m just hoping he somehow turns it around, the evidence though looks like that is beyond him.

Fair enough. If it’s beyond him to understand the ambitions of his bosses and to see that Mulgrew, Bell, Smallwood aren’t good enough. If he can’t comprehend that no team in the world could go up with the likes of Bennet, Graham and Evans playing every week. Then he needs to go! He’s given them a fair crack at the whip. They started off we’ll be have ultimately shown they are not upto the required standard.

Just now, Mattyblue said:

Football manager qualities though, aren’t they?

Yes mate, and as I’ve said 6436636763 times now. IF Mowbray decides to be stubborn and unable to change his tact by remaining loyal to players who have proven since the new year that they are not good enough, then I will join you in your view that he’s not the right man for this job.

Im not trying to change your mind. Barring us losing every game and going down I’m pretty sure he’s going nowhere anyway so we’re going to be able to see how this plays out.

25 minutes ago, arbitro said:

The players out of contract are a red herring if you are talking about them being replaced. Leutwiler has hardly started in the league (1 game is it) and Fisher will be coming back anyway. Gladwin hasn't kicked a ball this season. Conway and Rodwell haven't started too many games and Downing was considered not good enough. The numbers won't reduce sufficiently enough to bring in a large number of players unless we get rid of the ones now playing who clearly aren't good enough. But as I have said they have very little value to get a decent fee for any of them and I'd be staggered if they could get anywhere near what we are paying them. That's why I think we might have to pay them up to get shut of them as they will sit tight.

Mowbray was absolutely wrong to reward these players with new, improved deals and I believe they will become another millstone around our necks.

I don’t know what those players went from and too in terms of salary but I can’t see that we broke the bank for them and none were signed on extended term contracts. 

In terms of what fee we’d get for them, as far as I’m concerned we wouldn’t have been expecting big money for them either way. At least should someone want to prise a Smallwood or Williams away they will have to pay something for them? TM would’ve been slaughtered had they all been able to walk away for nothing.

This is nothing like the Etuhu, Murphy, Best scenarios. They were on massive, long term contracts...next seasons squad fillers will be on nothing like that.

Just now, Exiled in Toronto said:

Interesting debate but I think missing an aspect. While the assorted B&Q till operatives (stealing a very memorable descriptor from another poster) that we are on here will always be convinced we know more about football than the manager, the fact is that Mowbray has, barring a short hiatus or two, been employed his entire working life in it, which is pretty rare. I think I read somewhere that half of all managers only ever have the one job doing it. I have no doubt that Mowbray knows more about football and thinks harder about it than everyone on here.

But what we are seeing now is not so much the man’s football brain but how he responds to extreme pressure. It’s now about the ability to change course; to admit what you are doing isn’t working; to have a Plan B and switch to it. These are human qualities, not football knowhow. And here his track record isn’t so great. Stubbornness in adversity has sunk much greater men than Mowbray. 

That’s a fantastic post. I 100% agree. 

Just now, JHRover said:

I agree with your figure of eight. However I don't think Venkys will, or certainly not at the calibre required.

Downing, Rodwell, Reed, Gladwin and Conway are out of contract so there are five slots coming open, though I wouldn't be surprised to see Conway given an extension by default in the absence of us being able to find anyone else. A couple of those will be loans so my guess is a CB, CM and CF on permanent and then another midfielder and defender on loan. 

Doubt Venkys or Mowbray will have the appetite to make radical changes in fact Mowbray is probably afraid of doing this.

The keeper Leutwieler is outof contract too. 

I agree with most of this. But I feel that Mowbray has no option but to make those changes. He’s openly talked now about first team CB’s with aggression. He’s openly talked about frontline strikers and experienced keepers etc...

He’s set Raya, Mulgrew and Graham up as the most high profile potential omissions. I’d go as far to say he’s a dead man walking if we start with Mulgrew and Graham in the team next season.

Smallwood must be alarmed at Travis progress and with Davenport back he will know his days are numbeed

Just now, arbitro said:

Baldwin's the one who I said was permanently injured - I wasn't being flippant I really couldn't remember his name.

I'll give you a Graham on the bench but what is the point of the others? If you aren't good enough to start then you shouldn't be on the bench in my opinion. Assuming we bring six (I reckon we need eight) in who are ready to hit the ground running we will have a bloated squad. And where will the plethora of youngsters who have been given deals play? We will also have Grayson and Wharton back in the summer.

I envisage a bottleneck at every level next season primarily down to Mowbray awarding extensions to a group of players who aren't good enough.

We’re going to lose 5/6 out of contract. (If we wanted them they’d have extended already imo). So if we sign 6/8 then we’re absolutely going for it and I wouldn’t expect the likes of Buckley, Magloire etc to figure in any such scenario. The bottleneck only becomes an issue of we’re suggesting that the young lads are better players than those we’ve mentioned who are currently regulars but would be sat on our bench next season. The only player I can see who could cause this situation is Richie Smallwood who may take the place (wrongly) of a young player. 

The rest would simply be second choice due to be being replaced by a better player. That’s progress surely?

Just now, arbitro said:

Baldwin's the one who I said was permanently injured - I wasn't being flippant I really couldn't remember his name.

I'll give you a Graham on the bench but what is the point of the others? If you aren't good enough to start then you shouldn't be on the bench in my opinion. Assuming we bring six (I reckon we need eight) in who are ready to hit the ground running we will have a bloated squad. And where will the plethora of youngsters who have been given deals play? We will also have Grayson and Wharton back in the summer.

I envisage a bottleneck at every level next season primarily down to Mowbray awarding extensions to a group of players who aren't good enough.

You need those standard of players on tour bench to give you a chance of  kicking on. It’s w process of improving and replacing first teamers with better players so they become squad players. 

There’s no evidence of a bottleneck appearing. Mowbray has given more youth players senior debuts than any other former manager I can think of. That said, IF we are serious about challenging next season a lot of them will have to go out on loan. Possibly only Travis who will be ready for that level.

Just now, Mattyblue said:

I would say a load of League 1 players playing relentlessly at the top of the game can no longer reach those levels - as to be expected.

Ergo the transfer window was a big missed opportunity.

It was becoming apparent from around Preston and Wigan away right through to New Year’s Day. The January results papered over some very large cracks and the manager buried his head in the sand(paper).

For what it’s worth, I wanted us to sign a front line Striker instead of BB all summer. I would’ve tried for a CB at Christmas too...that said, the January market isn’t usually the best and I don’t have the full picture so I would’ve been guessing at what was best.

But I don’t think there were any signs that things would drop off so sharply. The injuries to Lenihan, Mulgrew and the Form of Dack were massive reasons for the downward spiral imo. And only Lenihan has come back to his previous level. Mulgrew looks finished and Dack away with the fairies.

Just now, Stuart said:

Only the bad guessers.

The same bad guessers will be quiet as a mouse UNTIL something they guessed right actually works out. That’s life.

Just now, RoversClitheroe said:

He plays in a team that's setup awfully - as someone who has said played football at a good standard surely you can see that tactically we're awful with no backup or anything? We play hoofball to Graham constantly, how is someone with flair meant to perform well in a team setup so badly. And picking our worst team (Smallwood, Bennett and Evans over Travis , Rothwell and Reed)

All about opinions...

He was playing in that same ‘awful’ team up until Dec when he had 15 goals and 10 assists or whatever.

My feeling is that part of Rovers problem is that our Talismsn has capitulated as oppose to the other way round. The last four home games have been lost 1-0. Those games were screaming out for him to do something. The team is built around accommodating him and he’s been soooo poor! A bit of magic in any of those games could’ve changed everything, created some momentum and confidence. Took the pressure off the team. 

Lets not be too quick to blame the team for Dacks form. It’s common knowledge that team hasn’t changed much from the one he thrived in for 18 months.

Which begs the question, what HAS changed? 

Just now, arbitro said:

Aside from Conway, Downing and him that's injured I don't think there are any more out of contract. And the way he was bigging Conway up last week it wouldn't surprise me if he got offered a deal. Last weeks announcement that we spent over £400k on agents fees included players who signed new deals. And if we have to pay some of the current ones up that will cost us dearly. However you view it Mowbray has put Rovers in a poor position with his dealings.

As far as new contracts go Mowbray has painted the club into a corner.

Think there’s a few more...Leutwiler, Gladwin, Rodwell etc...

Re the contacts to squad players. I don’t have a real issue with that. You’d need Bennets, Williams, Mulgrew, Graham on your bench if you wanted to go up. The most important bit is getting better players in to take their position in the first place!

Just now, JHRover said:

We've got about 300 pages on here discussing our major weaknesses and need to strengthen massively in the summer, yet I suspect our first priorities will be to cash in on arguably our best and most valuable player and sending Reed back to Southampton.

Then no doubt there'll be folk stratching their heads when we're bottom of the league next season. 

Clubs that want to progress and improve keep their best players and work out ways to replace those not good enough. Dack is good enough so his position should be bottom of the list of issues that need addressing.

We have to rebuild our defence, central midfield and find more goals, not offload our most creative player.

As we can see though, the club PR machine is busy at work convincing people that Dack is a major problem and we'd be better off getting shut. Convenient really. Not Venkys or Rovers fault. Never is.

It’s not always a massive conspiracy mate. Sometimes the club just think enough is enough...

I don’t want us to sell Dack. I just think the interview Tony did about going to 433 next season and Dack going awol with a broken heart...sorry hamstring injury seems too much of a coincidence?

Surely no ones saying we should’ve sold him in the summer though? Over the season he’s statistically been our best player!? We blaming Mowbray for that too!? ????

Just now, LDRover said:

What is killing his value stone dead at the minute is playing in a lifeless team with a lifeless manager. Ironically by not playing is the only way to keep some sort of value.

As for your point on a return for the owners the only way to get a return on their money is promotion to the PL. They won't get that through useless project signings and scrapheap managers on the cheap.

In the contrary, I think what’s killing his value at the moment is that even when he plays in said ‘lifeless’ team he can’t pass five yards or hit a barn door! But his stats this year will entice some other promotion hungry club to take a punt on him. Wouldn’t even be surprised if it’s being lined up as we speak... 

Just now, Mattyblue said:

I was guessing that just buying young players would be problematic 

I was just guessing that most promoted League 1 teams drop off in the second half of the season.

I was just guessing that letting go of one of our only recognised centre halves in the middle of an injury crisis would turn out badly.

Modern day Nostradamus me.

Correct. You were guessing mate. 

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

? You should have said! I just thought he was a massive waste of money but I've seen the light now

BTW, are they the same 'lots of people' who think Mowbray and Venus are 'very good coaches'? 

Your football contacts book must be huge. How long have you been in the game? 

Not in the game pal. But I’ll take the opinions of current league managers and coaches as well as people who have worked directly with TM in recent years over yours. For now ?

Just now, JHRover said:

I'll throw another conspiracy theory into the mix.

Mowbray has heard via Pasha that his budget for the summer is likely to be small. Numerous reasons why this might be the case - Venkys have lost interest after the success of last season - Venkys feel as though their fingers were burned last summer - Venkys have changed course again - we saw it with Bowyer and Lambert that they can quickly pull up the drawbridge on funding and leave the manager in situ struggling. 

As things stand the only way he'll win them over or get decent funds to strengthen is by selling to raise cash - see Lambert with Rhodes

Anyone can see the only realistic prospect we have at this moment in time to do that is by selling Dack - perhaps not at the values suggested in January but probably still £8-10 million given his record.

So begins a process of phasing Dack out and unsettling him to prepare for the sale - hence we've got the shenanigans seen yesterday. It won't be long before people on here and Twitter are encouraging the club to sell Dack as we don't need that sort of behaviour here and we can't tolerate it etc. 

But rather than it being a Dack issue perhaps it is a Rovers issue - that they're trying to sell him and force him out as it is the only way cash will be raised.

Just a thought. It wouldn't surprise me. Remember the 'contract talks' that were supposedly taking place with him in January that have never come to anything? We've seen stuff like this before - ultimately the aim is to sell the player for big money whilst shielding Venkys and Rovers from criticism by turning the spotlight onto the player.

 

Funny post.

Fyi I do beleive that they will be looking to get him out and recover some money this summer. There has to be some return for the owners....but maybe the real reason is that they’ve had enough of the issues that surround him and want to cash out before he does something that kills his value stone dead...just a thought ?

3 minutes ago, Stuart said:

That’s a really poor post.

Not only will you not admit people were right to be concerned but you now sarcastically congratulate them for being good guessers.

Shame.

Here we go...

There’s nothing poor about my post. The guy took a best guess at what might happen and it came true. It’s just like studying the form for a horse race and backing the winner and then giving the win anymore credibility than it being a bloody good guess.

Just now, Stuart said:

Since when has football ever been like the real world? Managers are sacked every other month. It’s the nature of the industry. Anyone who wants to be a football manager cannot expect longevity, that’s why they get paid a lot of money to compensate for that uncertainty.

True. Great point. They do get sacked all the time. Sometimes we understand it, lots of times it’s incomprehensible...and that is because there is soooo much going on behind closed doors which effect the situation. Extra marital affairs, drugs, financial strategies, political aims. It’s so complex.

4 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

We know Mowbray said BB will be a 'superstar', we know he paid in the region of £6-7m for him, we know BB hasn't scored a goal and looks a fairly average footballer. 

I know all that without having played FIFA??

We don’t know anything about the context of that deal. BB is very highly rated by lots of people I know. I would have to agree that my opinion of him is closer to yours at the moment. But what I am sure of is that if BB does fulfill the potential that professional coaches see in him, we won’t see your predictions of his failure for dust! ?

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

No, he had a chance to improve the squad in January and made the wrong call. Because of that we are now in freefall. The damage is done.

It also depends on what his remit is for next season. Making changes is the easy part. Improving the team is what he struggles with. 

That’s fair enough. I understand your opinion on that. I just don’t agree. ??

Just now, LDRover said:

So the rider on keeping TM appears to be that 'he deserves the summer to rebuild'.

Who is to say he will get decent funds? Who is to say that the powers that be point to the ludicrous contract extensions and £10million spent on ineffective players and pull the purse strings?

We all know the only thing predictable about our esteemed owners is their unpredictability. We know we are pretty low on their interest levels over there so I'd be hugely surprised that they are intending a huge spending spree (which is desperately needed).

My view is that TM knows there's not much finance available and is just treading water pulling the cash in while he can and hoping to God for a big offer for Dack to give him some wriggle room.

I wish I had the money to plough £100m into something I wasn’t interested in! ??

Just now, Mattyblue said:

Nope. I said BB was a ridiculous signing then and nothing so far has changed my view on that debacle. I said repeatedly that largely concentrating transfer policy on bringing in young, English players was a fools errand. You must also bring in experienced heads.

I also said that many promoted sides have good starts and then run out of steam - perfect for January signings. So the season has turned out how I imagined - though this run is certainly worse than anything I envisaged.

And if you can see it then why couldn’t he, right? ?

Mate, this isn’t Fifa. These are real people with real problems. We don’t know what finances were actually available. We don’t know if the owners rhetoric is to buy young English players, develop them and sell them for a profit. We don’t know anything really other than what we see in football matches and what we read in the media.

It’s like someone looking at your life through Facebook and deciding what you should and should not do. It’s not real.

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

No, but Mowbray did and he got it wrong. That's the point and that's why 'hindsight' is such a cop out. It's his job to make the right decisions. 

And if we finish between 10th - 15th and he makes the summer changes then he’s done his job, right? 

2 hours ago, arbitro said:

The highlighted sentence is what is really concerning me. We are stuck with the players you mention (and others) who Mowbray naively gave new, improved contracts to and Dack aside none of them have any saleable value and are unlikely to earn what we are paying them elsewhere. I think we need up to eight new players which will give us a bloated squad with potentially a huge wage bill. The knock on effect will be that no youngsters will get near the first team. I can see some of his old guard being paid off.

Overriding that though I simply don't trust Mowbray to pretty much build a new team. His record in the transfer market is poor, borne out by so many regular starters since he came were already here. And he has spent around £10m.

He has to go for me now. 

There’s a few with contracts up at the end of the season. I see the young lads slotting into those. The desired signings as quoted by Rich Sharpe are as follows:

Priority - CB’s (plural) and at least one striker.

TM refuses to rule out GK, FB and CM. I personally think these will be brought in based on if we can shift players in their positions.

Tony is openly talking about the plan. This needs to be executed or he’s history imo.