Late night , Col ....? Yawn ...

Anything under 350 is an attainable target . England have bottle these days ....Roll on tomorrow

Probably the safest place , Andy ........ Mind you , with the amount of arms and ammo many of them haver got stashed away , maybe not...

Early days yet . If we get to 150 then basically it's a second innings game . Great start to the series entertainment wise ...a bit of aussie blood flowing

The game is on permanently , Dan ; we'd better all get used to it .

Where I would disagree with you , DB , is the extent to which religion is central to the lives of Muslims as opposed to ourselves in the West where secularism is utterly dominant and the role of the church has been eroded over the last centuries (and decades in particular) . The influence of the Mosque and the way Islam is interpretated can't really be compared to the role of the churches in N Ireland during the troubles . Essentially the IRA and the loyalists had differing , but yet attainable , political goals , ie , which nation state they belonged - or should belong - to . Islam is a supra national force and the goal the militants seek is not within our power to give for their enemy is our very way of life itself - we are a Godless society and the laws of Allah must be imposed accordingly . Whilst the situation in Iraq and the Middle East obviously exacerbates the tensions over here and the resolution of the problems would help somewhat , I agree with those who argue that other grievances would take their place . The root of the problem is the indoctrination of Muslims from an early and impressionable age into a belief system that is more than a mere "choice" faith as we know it but a central pillar of their whole culture . Now give power to radical "elders" and leaders in the mosques and you get the recipe for endless trouble . The trouble can only be truly solved when moderates displace the radicals at all levels of the educational lives of young Muslims . At the moment there is no sign of that at all IMO .

I never used the word "stupid" - you did !

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Go on then , brainbox ; tell us all why you so vociferous in your support of the US led invasion of Iraq . Why did someone who calls himself a liberal support this carnage and while you're at it tell us all why you didn't have the foresight to see what a quagmire it would become , and why you couldn't see that it would inevitably cost many innocent lives not only over there but here as well ..?

Mmm . Sounds like this young man has been expressing some views that could surely be regarded as racist had they been uttered by Theno , AESF or myself . This particular Muslim , however , must be congratulated on bringing to the attention of us all of the fundamental conflict between being British and being Muslim . In other faiths there are those who would also chose their religion over their country when it comes to the question of "allegiance". Where Islam differs is that they harbour extremists who are willing to cross the line from quiet faith to violence against the culture and religions which they feel is against them and the book which dominates every aspect of their lives from birth til death. Not only that but many of their elders and leaders within their communities foster such hatred at worst and ignore it at best . Even those "leaders" who condemn it are unwilling to confront the root of the problem and make absolute and unequivical their opposition to the literal interpretation of the Koran . Words are meaningless until the basic principles of the enlightenment - which Christianity and Judaism have accepted (reluctantly at times) - displaces this literalism interpration of their dogmatic religion . Islam will always be at war with democracy until they accept that their religion MUST take second place to the principles of democracy , universal suffrage and true equality between the sexes. The war in Iraq has added fuel to the fire of this world conflict but be under no illusions , the conflict is all about two incompatible belief systems , democracy and Islam , and it will continue for a long time yet . That word you were looking for , Paul , that describes this expanding world wide movement ....it's "fascism" and appeasement of fascism invariably leads to disaster .

Never have I read such a more nauseating , apologistic tome as this . In the past couple of weeks I've visited a few web sites , Muslim ones also - none of them have spouted such claptrap . Comparing the comments of members of this board to muslim clerics calling for a religious war .....Dear God Almighty , it's time you grew up , Eddie and developed a sense of perspective .

Yawn....if you've no idea , then you are as simple as you are borrring.......I'm sure everyone knows exactly what I'm implying . (For a clue see SG 194's link . Maybe , just maybe there are such people like that in Blackburn as there are in Leeds , Bradford , London etc etc . Sad to say , Col , but my knowledge in this area - as supported by my posts over the years - is way beyond yours )

Absolutely agree with you . That's obvious from the posts I made on the subject about the "firework sounds" . Didn't you read them ? The evidence thus far is inconclusive - I don't mind admitting that ! As for the Mela event ; I just think it was a golden opportunity for Muslims to show their true feelings about the outrages - whatever they are . A pity they weren't given the chance ....... I'd also say that there are no hard and fast rules about the exact time respects are paid to the dead - it's often the case that tributes are paid at footy grounds for eg at all kinds of different times on different days . So why not the Mela ....? I think we all know the real reason ..... a bit risky.. (Hell - a late night post from myself ; I'd better get off to bed before I insult someone .... )

My informant tells me that "firework" sounds definitely were heard at that time - although she does speculate that they could have come from the cathederal cannon !! (I was unaware of the existent of such a cannon ....) Enquiries will continue.....

I know people from that area , Scotty . I'll make enquiries.......discreetly , of course.....

Could anyone tell me if there was any form of "two minutes silence" or similar popular support for the victims at the Mela in Blackburn last Saturday and Sunday ? I've scoured the local rags - including the Asian Image - but unfortunately there was no mention.... Maybe this was a golden opportunity for the 30,000 strong crowds to show their unified support for their fellow British citizens in this dark hour . As opposed that is , to the words spouted by their leaders who some of us suspect aren't entirely representative of their co religionists . I do hope that it wasn't a case of the organisers being afraid of the outcome of asking for such a show of solidatrity.....

Colin , you really are beneath contempt . One minute you're branding people as "arses" and racist for delivering widely held opinions on a message board , the next you are dismissing as merely "Guilty of bad judgement & chronic insensitivity maybe..." those who march on the streets in open support of terrorists who had just claimed the lives of 3000 people . Have you NO sense of perspective or has it really got to the stage were you are arguing against me just for the hell of it . If it's the latter then I'd suggest this is the wrong thread . Modi - No I wasn't referring to Kamy specifically , of course not - only suggesting that he has had his eyes closed a bit . As for shopping someone to the police who one suspects of recruiting for terrorism or of being terrorists themselves , yes I think the "moderates" have a duty to do so . This is as far removed from "McCarthyism" as I can think of - communists posed no serious threat (other than in an idealogical sense) to the US gov't - recent events have shown that radical Islamists pose an actual physical threat . I truly despair if you can't see the difference....

Shocking ? I'd bloody well say so . This was a couple of days after 9/11 for God's sake Eddie! Have you forgot that hundreds of Brits died in the US or do you just not give a toss ? I wonder what you'd say if the BNP went out on the streets to celebrate the deaths of Muslims in Iraq or where ever .

I suppose that hinges on the definition of "mass" celebration - but celebrations most certainly did take place . There was also the famous case , reported widely , of the march by Muslims in Blackburn which degenerated into a pro Bin Laden demo , complete with banners . No arrests were made - of course .... Earlier , Kamy , you stated "...Wel what can I say other than this is a sad sad sad day for me. I never ever thought that people from within the community who are born and bred here in the UK would ever be capable of carrying out such an act. ......." I find it quite startling that while very many of us Non Muslims KNEW this kind of thing was inevitable , you as a Muslim could not see it . Very worrying and a good reason to treat the words of so called moderate Muslims with great scepticism and caution . When we see some action from the moderate leaders in isolating the radicals , ie actually naming names and providing evidence to the police along with banning the distribution of extremist literature and propoganda both in and out of the mosque then things might improve . Will that happen ? I don't think so . Unfortunately we are in the very early infancy of this phoney war on terror . Don't shoot the messenger !

Not that you would ever slag people off , Scotty .... But seeing as you have may I state that your post above , as usual , is based on no evidence whatsoever - merely the same finger poining nonsense backed up by false and misleading allegations . You and your ilk would have made great inquisitors in another place and time .... As for the "technicality" bit ; well yes that would be my line of defence - to argue that racism and my stated views have no connection at all . That is clearly supported by your dictionary defintion and would have to be supported by any sane , objective person (of which this forum unfortunately is sadly lacking ) Alll in all , Scotty , you'll have to do better ......hell , I can even quote in my defence a post from P5 of this thread ....." And I completely agree with Blue Phil above, this has nothing to do with race at all." * (OK - it's a quote from some dubious character named Scotty but it's still worth a look at for amusement sake ....)

Warped mind eh .....harsh words ...yawn . If you cast your mind back to my first post (the one you agreed with !) you'll see that I quite clearly stated that this was a CULTURAL war ie , nothing to do with race etc . On that basis it's logical to assume that if immigration had been strictly controlled over the last decades and confined to those who would quickly assimilate to our culture and values then this nation would be less likely to succumb to such acts of terror . Unfortunately , that wasn't the case and we are now faced with the situation where second and third generation Muslims are quite prepared to strap bombs to themselves and kill innocent men , women and children - what you would describe as their fellow countrymen . What I would like now at this twelth hour is for the Gov't to realise its mistakes and cease all immigration (legal , illegal , arranged marriages , asylum seekers , the full monty ) from all Muslim countries . You and others may think that's the product of a "warped mind " and extreme but believe me there'd be LESS chances of this war on terror escalating if the Gov't showed some guts and stopped appeasing the Islamic non conformists and rid ourselves of the radicals ( and it's well known who they are ) . One last point - the war in Iraq was most definitely wrong and certainly hasn't helped matters - but that can never justify (or even fully explain the attacks ) we've suffered . Maybe my critic from Malta would care to explain his very vociferous support for the war when it was launched . Maybe if I wasn't so polite I could have described him as a warmonger who was helping to ferment terror....

Flops , I never instigate personal attacks but I reserve the right to respond vigorously if confronted with posts such as Philipl's (quoted earlier) which are based on no evidence whatsoever - merely silly assumptions that are far , far more extreme in their condemnatory intolerance than any of mine . When I post it is usually to state my views in a considered manner . People don't like my views - I'm used to that - but I won't be desisting because certain posters , after totally misrepresenting my posts , start throwing around stupid labels like "racist" , "arse" "bigots" etc etc . I have never once compained to the mods (about them , yes , but that's only when they stoop to the level of those they should be moderating !) , nor will I in the future . But if you say I'm starting to get personal , then I hope that others are getting similar warnings ....I somehow doubt it . Your second paragraph BTW is beneath contempt - in comparing me with the bombers and their sympathisers . Hope that's not too personal ...

This is the kind of self righteous , pious garbage that is becoming all too frequent on this forum - in particular the second paragraph which jumps to such ludicrous conclusions from absolutely no evidence that even Flopsy would be able to see the stupidity of it all (if he concentrated very hard ). As for the third paragraph ; yet more trash written from an ex pat who preaches to us on the subject of immigration from the safety of Malta . The peaceful Christian island of Malta that is where Muslim immigration has not been much much of an issue recently ; maybe that's why it's so peaceful ...? The obvious conclusion is that after decades of mass , uncontrolled immigration and pandering to the militant , unbending Muslim lobby in the name of multi culturalism , bombs are raining on peaceful people in London - and it will continue if policies aren't changed . Extreme Liberalism and multi culturalism (NOT Multi racialism I must add ) is at the root of our current troubles . Philipl's words are just words . Just wishing and hoping that one day everyone , catholic , protestant , muslim jew , will learn to live in peace is as much a pipe dream as some of the stupid beliefs that drives Muslims . This is the real world , philip , in places like Blackburn , Bradford , Burnley etc - a million miles away from the fantasy island you dwell in .

There's absolutely nothing in any of AESF's posts , in this or any other thread , that remotely suggests any of the nonsense you've written , Flopsy . Maybe it's time you gave up this moderating lark - it's blatently obvious that you're too thick .

Yeah , but fair do's , he was a bit pi$$ed at the time ....