4 hours ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

But do you both accept you may be in the minority amongst our ST holders ?

And as we are fundamentally discussing ways to increase attendances...

Do you think there are people who would buy if they could pay over 12 months or are you not assed as long as you are personally OK ?

It's a question which can't be answered either way. Those who pay upfront may be the majority.

I see no problem with people paying over twelve months. I'm sure there would be people who buy in those circumstances.

My only issue with any iniative is it should be equally shared amongst all supporters. That is where the difficulty lays with many ideas. There is no reason why I as an existing, long-standing ST holder should not receive the same benefits.

If for example match day prices drop to £20 I expect my ST price to drop pro rata. This is the difficulty. Dropping match day prices requires a massive uplift in sales just to replace the lost value of STs. With walk ons there is no guarantee how often they will attend thus making the calculation of how many are needed to compensate for lost ST revenue almost impossible to calculate.

4 hours ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

I thought that is what HAS happened this year. No discussion required.

I don't know. Has it?

Just as an aside on STs this has happened to us twice this season. We usually enter the ground using disabled access via a side gate.

Twice this season we have been late, parked in a different spot, approached the ground from a different direction and I've been rushing and flustered. Both times I've gone to the nearest turnstile thinking it was JWL only to discover, once inside, it was for JWU. Getting out again is a nightmare!

Clearly a JWL season ticket gives access to the JWU. This shouldn't happen and I expect an electronic ST to refuse entry to the wrong stand.

Has anyone else experienced this? Using for example a BBE season ticket to access the JW stand?

A quote from the Dundee Utd managing director:

It's  about putting value back into them," says managing director Mal Brannigan. "If fans renewed early, it was the same price as last season. Before, if you missed three or four games, it wasn't worth having one, this year, that's gone up to six or seven by us increasing the matchday price."

I'm looking forward to the discussion when that happens at Ewood!!!!

8 hours ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

Its about providing flexibility and accessability for different people to pay in different ways meaning more customers. (increased attendance).

Good for you and your wife Paul if you can buy phones up front. I will hazard a guess most of blackburn have monthly contracts. The same market we operate in.

The thing is you operate this type of subscription based membership OR the old season ticket model. Not both.

In fact the main difference is only that the subscription is spread over 12 months so becomes more manageable compared to buying a season ticket over 8 months.

 

Just needs some data behind it.

How many of our 8600 ST holders pay up front compared to the 8 x monthly payments option ?

I feel the point regarding a discount for paying annually is legitimate. Without a budget we'd struggle in many months to pay for car insurance, house insurance, season tickets etc.

I know the likely cost of each of these items and many more. The total is totted up, divided by 12 and put to one side every month. Consequently we can take advantage of discounts for annual payment. Equally why pay £6-700 for a high end phone if the only way to afford it is on expensive contracts? Plenty of good smart phones available at £150-200. That's a mug's game.

What I describe is no different from paying gym, phone, ST every month, it's just cheaper. Yes I know the first 12 months is tough.

Personally I would not want to pay monthly for my ST, like many other things I want it paid for and out of mind.

I think your basic suggestion is people can effectively sign up to a contract or season ticket at any point in the year. On the surface I can't see an issue with that but suggest a couple of flaws in the idea. Every opportunity to sell STs should be taken.

1. A contract phone is the most expensive way possible to buy. It's far cheaper to buy outright and have a sim only deal of some type. Plenty do this.

2. My wife pays her gym contract annually as it's significantly cheaper. Half the people we know at the gym do this.

The point I'd make, using your examples, is this. With my ST purchased up front I pay £15/game. If the same price is available to anyone at anytime of year I'd expect a decent discount for paying 12 months in advance. Netflix etc. don't offer this so are not relevant.

I'm not sure what the "convenience" you refer to is?

Well said @Stuart

2 hours ago, Dr X said:

How are we doing on the points total? 

14

8 hours ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

We only have so much to invest.

It was decided to invest it in new strikers instead of fans.

One of those is the future of our club.

The other is a bit of a waste.

Ha! I interpreted your post as meaning one of our strikers is the future of the club and the other one is a bit of a waste!

7 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

I think the boat has been missed. The only way to get fans back is to improve the football and get into the top half of the premier league. This can’t happen under Mowbray or the current owners (unless they get very lucky with the next chap)

I feel you're absolutely correct. PL football is the only thing which will now have a significant impact on our gates.

Where I would disagree is on Mowbray who I think has a decent chance of gaining promotion. It will probably require some good fortune, perhaps a following wind, but I can see it happening.

The owners? I think they would "invest" should the club be promoted. I've no idea what our minimum income would be in the PL. Given the chance to get their money back and possibly sell us as a PL club might well tempt them to try to ensure we stay there.

10 hours ago, Mike E said:

 

Waitrose is still going strong, but I believe the future of the grocery market will be in E-Commerce and delivery, with supermarkets becoming less important.

Interesting point of view. I shop online for things which are purely functional. We needed a new hoover recently and made a decision on the model we wanted and purchased online.

When it comes to "emotional" items, food, clothes, shoes etc. I would never consider online buying. I can't imagine allowing someone else to make my food decisions. My wife always wants to know why I waste time going to a clothes shop. It's simple.

I can go to the shop, touch, feel, chose size, colour etc. pay for it and go home. Alternatively I can order lots of clothes I "think" I will like online, wait for them to arrive, try it all on, reject everything except the item I want. Then I get in the car drive to the same frigging store to return everything I don't want. Ridiculous behaviour.

In my view an emotional purchase online is a total waste of my time. I've tried it. I don't do it unless I have absolutely no other option.

I am left wondering how great an impact continual consumer demand for low cost products, across every retail sector, has contributed to this failure.

In the UK we seem to know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

@pk1875 I think you make some very good points there. I remain to be convinced about weddings and other social events but with the right marketing commercial activities would work. The key though is marketing. I went to numerous events at Old Trafford for no reason other than that was where the event was. The fact it's the home of Utd was irrelevant. The difficulty of course is marketing as Rovers management continue to prove they are poor at marketing football let alone anything else.

A reduced capacity stand would be a plus point.

1 hour ago, Ossydave said:

I often work away and stay wherever they put me, not really arsed. If I stay in say a travel lodge though they're always full of workers, be it sales reps or scaffolders I rarely go to a quiet one!

Which is one of the reasons I used to avoid them. My situation was different. I had a budget and provided I stayed within that I could stay and eat where I wanted.

I've turned this over in my mind and feel I'm probably wrong. If an office based person is simply booking a convenient location at the right price for a travelling rep, building team etc. then yes a hotel at Ewood could work.

If there is an aspiration to build a hotel offering more than this then I would still have my doubts. 

If I was looking for a wedding reception or similar I'm not sure the Ewood area is where I'd want to be.

47 minutes ago, Ossydave said:

It's down the road from the m65 then others within 15 mins or so, not a bad location at all for a business traveller.

I understand about the proximity to motorways but I feel more than that is required. When I travelled I wanted interesting restaurants, perhaps a decent pub etc. nearby. The last place I wanted to be in the evening was in the hotel which is simply a room and a bed.

2 hours ago, MCMC1875 said:

 

 

All the Travelodges/Premier Inns/Holiday Inns along the M65 from Preston to Burnley are regularly booked solid weekdays. Business trade is driving demand.

I'm happy to be corrected and didn't know this. I wouldn't have stayed in any of those when I traveled for work so I'm probably the wrong person to comment.

6 hours ago, Miller11 said:

On the topic of stand closures, Waggott is desperate to knock down the riverside and redevelop. His big dream is to build a hotel. Doing this would doubtless drive away even more fans. I think there’d be a significant number who would just stop going rather than relocate elsewhere.

When did this one about building an hotel resurface? I haven't heard this madness in 10 years.

Speaking as someone who used to travel a lot for work the Ewood area is completely wrong for the business traveller. For leisure purposes one has to ask the question why would a tourist want to visit Blackburn.

If an hotel is built at Ewood it will be an unwanted burden on the club. One has to be realistic, Rovers apart why would visitors want to be in the area?

45 minutes ago, Stuart said:

1) there is no general market - it’s Rovers or nowt. But how do we compare to City for example.

2) Surely we should try though. The current strategy isn’t working.

3) I mean value compared to the cost of living.

Whether you and I agree or not on the current club strategy, a lot of people are being priced out of watching Rovers. You and I both attend so what motivates us is irrelevant to the debate around our 10,000 empty seats.

1. By general market I mean the Championship as a whole. Rovers should be pricing around the average for the league. Too high and supporters would, rightly, take a dim view. Too low and we would be deemed cheap. From the fans perspective cheap is good but for the club it isn't.

2. I see two problems with trying significantly reduced prices. A very real loss of income. Using my example ST income would drop by +/- 40%. Meaning we need to get an extra 4000 fans in the ground for every game. That is a significant increase and recent history tells us is very difficult to achieve. Secondly if the experiment fails the following season there will need to be a big price increase to put prices back to the original level. Now the initiative can be clearly explained at the start. 12 months later how many will remember??? 

3. That is a very difficult one and I wouldn't know where to begin!  I decided just to look at an inflation calculator from the Bank of England. October 1994 ticket price for Rovers v Utd was £15. The BoE inflation calculator shows £15 then is £29.31 today at 2.8% inflation. Now I know we are not in the PL but that figure suggests ticket pricing is simply matching inflation.

As for motivation I don't need any. I suspect you are exactly the same. I need no motivation to go to Ewood. It's what I do. I realise we are hard core and thousands need persuading but I cannot understand the mentality that feels the beer is crap. If I want good beer I go to a good pub!! If I want good food at comparable prices I chose a decent cafe. I don't go to a football ground if I want these things.

Improved match day experience is very, very difficult. A better atmosphere is all I can think of which takes us straight back to prices!!!!! ?

9 hours ago, DeeCee said:

Every little helps.

Absolutely

8 hours ago, gumboots said:

My 4 kids also attended as ST holders back in the day and, as you say, they no longer attend regularly as 2 live abroad, one lives in the north east and the other lives south of Manchester and works some weekends. However, that doesn't mean that getting them in as kids was a bad idea. If we dont engage kids interest there will soon be no fans in the grounds. Some will carry on attending. Some will attend as and when they can. Others will attend occasionally on visits home. But all our kids would still say they're fans and would no doubt attend regularly if distance, work commitments and family allowed. 50% success is a pretty good rate. 

9 hours ago, Blue blood said:

But imagine if we didn't make that effort. I think the percentage would be even lower. If kids aren't introduced to Rovers early it's less likely to be picked up in later life. 

Also kids in the ground is a key element but must be supported by other things to get/keep them involved. 

Not criticising your effort btw - sounds really great way of introducing kids to Rovers. 

I'm 100% in favour of getting more kids in to the ground. It will have some impact but it is never going to be a significant long-term one. Yes 50% in our household is a great success but I very much doubt this is the general picture. I've said this before so I'll be very brief. In the 90s 30-40 people in my village went to Ewood, the percentage of children was high. Of those who I know personally the ONLY household from which I know the now adult children attend is mine! Some of the fathers still go but far from all. 

8 hours ago, Stuart said:

You think £12 is ridiculous because you are an OAP? Aren’t low earners under 65 also entitled to think the price they have to pay even at Rovers is ridiculous? 

The view of prices paid is surely relative to individual income and even value. To some people £15 a game is not an absolute bargain.

No I think it indicates the price at Chorley is ridiculous. I've just checked the full price and find it's £15. Last season it was £10, or at least that's what a friend asked me for when he got me a ticket. A 50% increase. Of course low earners are entitled to think the price at Rovers is ridiculous, people are entitled to think what they want. This doesn't though get away from the fact Rovers prices, if one buys an ST, are a bargain. I don't know the exact figure but from reading this thread our crowd is +/- 80% ST holders so these fans are looked after.

The view of prices can be relative to income but it should, in my view, be relative to the general market. I haven't researched every Championship club but often read here about WBA at £20/match. Rovers BBE walk on price, without the surcharge, averages £27/match - 2 x Cat A+ at £40, 7 x Cat A at £28, 14 x Cat B at £25. An ST for the BBE is £349 - £15/game which is a saving of 55%.

If the club reduced prices to the WBA level then the ST price should be reduced pro rata which brings the ST price per game down to £9. If this didn't happen ST holders would have every right to complain they are being treated differently yet make up 80% of the crowd. For a senior this would become £96 for an ST or £4/match.

What I cannot get anyone to answer is how this makes financial sense? The club are being asked to massively reduce match day income to increase the crowd size. Fair enough but there is no guarantee it will work. The club would be stuck with the reduction for at least one season with no apparent method of replacing the income. I understand the argument re increased food and drink sales etc. but there is little to demonstrate the low value/profit on these items would make a significant impact. It's doubtful we could even cope with a huge surge in demand at half time. There must also be a question re who actually profits from increased food and drink sales. Is this a franchise or concession paid as a fixed season long price? Is it profit sharing? Do we know exactly how this works?

Reducing prices in this manner is a dangerous gamble.

If by "even value" you are describing the standard of football, £15 for National League or £15 for Championship. I think I can see the relative value there. As for price being relative to income I understand your point but would say two things. My son lives off benefits, my income is below the tax threshold so I feel I understand low income and the need to budget accordingly.

I keep reading of the importance of getting kids in the ground. Yes it builds numbers in the stadium on the day but it does very, very little to build a regular long-term attendance.

I know many young people who attended for free or peanuts in the 90s. All consider themselves Rovers fans. The vast majority no longer live in Lancashire let alone the local area.

I have no problem with filling the ground with cheap or free kids seats. Please let's not fall in to the trap of believing this will generate a solid regularly attending fan base for the future. It won't. Young people have to be mobile to build careers and lives, many leave the area - for good.

I took four children to every home game for 10-12 years. Today one has continued to attend, another has returned after ten years of not being able to go to matches, two haven't been in a decade. At best that's a 50% success.

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

@JoeHarvey so you consider £22-29 for a ticket at home to Luton, upped to £25-32 if you can only decide on matchday whether to go, as "dirt cheap?"

Season tickets are no longer at bargain prices either, so they could do more to get more bums on seats, but ultimately it seems Waggott and co seem more focused on milking the existing fan base. Presumably he sees there being more to gain by doing that.

My son's season ticket means paying about £15/match. That is an absolute bargain. I'm 65 I think I pay about £8.

I went to Chorley three weeks ago. It was £12 and that was an OAP reduction. I will think twice about going again as that price is ridiculous.

How cheap are we supposed to become?

Driving along LBR yesterday and Simply the Best came on the radio. We were all immediately thrown back 25 years..........sadly the pavements were thronged with hundreds not the thousands of old.

Driving in to Ewood these days you would hardly know there is a football ground let alone a match day.

3 hours ago, Stuart said:

 

I’m sure many of us have had the dreaded conversation with our young children about why they can’t support United or Liverpool, and calmly and sincerely explaining about how you don’t pick your team, it picks you. “You are from Blackburn which makes you a Rovers fan” (although birth certificates are probably being misplaced at the minute). Those conversations for 1st gen fans to 2nd gen fans will continue to be a long way off unless we get people down to Ewood in the first place.

Oh how I remember those conversations, two in particular.

No.1 son: "Why can't we support United like Tom and Billy?"

Me: "How often do Tom and Billy get to see United?"

A few years later when No. 3 son would have been 6-7 and No. 1 around 11-12.

No. 3 son: "Do we have to support Rovers? I like United."

No. 1 son: "If you want to live in this house you have to support Rovers."

No. 3 son got down from the table and fled upstairs in floods of years.

Well that was a grim turnout yesterday. Doesn't look good.