In my view we need a keeper, CD & LB this Jan, probably all as loans though I'd hope keeper & LB could be permanent. 

I accept the squad is unbalanced but we need defenders more than forwards just now. I think we have to stick with SG, BB, AA & DG as our striking options. I don't think our options are as bad there as folk make out. According to the BBC, Armstrong was excellent yesterday; we know SG can score goals - he scored a dozen in a poor Coyle team, plus see against Preston in October - and a run in the team in the centre will benefit him. BB is a more challenging problem to solve, but like with SG he hopefully just needs a run in the team in a central position to build his confidence.

We're creating chances; convert maybe just 5% more of them and draws turn into wins, defeats into draws and we get back in amongst the playoff mix. TBH I don't think TM has a choice but to persevere with his current attacking options.

But that needs to be tied into an improvement defensively; that's where the real problems lie. We're too weak & lightweight. I think recruitment here has been lacking but that said I think TM has also been unlucky to some extent in missing out on his preferred keeper options in summer to replace Raya, missing Tosin for 2 lengthy periods (he managed almost a full season at West Brom) & Nyambe recently, and losing Cunningham for the season. The goals we've conceded recently have been poor; shore that up (as we did in our recent unbeaten run) and we'll move up the table again.

I actually believe we're talking about fine margins between mid table mediocrity & a proper play off push. Sensible modest recruitment this Jan could still tip the balance for us, and I don't think overall things are as dire as most are making out.

I realise of course that I am in a very significant minority...!

(Puts tin hat on and bracing for replies)

Merry Christmas everybody! Here's hoping we all get our best present in May!! ?

Yes, but also a warning not to take wins against Wigan, Brum or Hudds for granted. 

No real surprises here, they clearly struggled on Weds to match previous effort levels. It's not about the players having 9 days rest before the next 3 games in 6 days, more about some of them being knackered after 4 games in 2 weeks. I doubt any other club has started their last 4 games unchanged.

Holtby for Dack enforced & common sense. Johnson for Evans like for like, Evans has run & run & run for 4 games in succession after a long time not featuring. Rothwell has been ineffective, so his replacement there is unsurprising. Similar with Armstrong & BB, albeit to a lesser extent.

DG & SG I'm ok with in the circumstances. 

Bell coming in is unfortunate, but Downing was allegedly poor on Weds & can only be replaced by Bell to keep a regular back 4.

It'll be tough today, was always going to be. 

I thought it was a fairly decent, professional performance overall, especially coming off the back of the Luton game. Far more composed against a better side. It wasn't out-of-your-seat exciting, apart from the 10 minute spell near the end.

Gally was poor again (arguably out of position) , so was Dack (1 great pass aside). Add in DG hardly seeing the ball, that amounts to a big disadvantage.  

But overall I can see improvement in how we're playing. Far fewer long balls over the heads of midfield, retaining & recycling possession better. We just need to find that killer ball more often. If we have the ball it limits what the opposition can do. Use it better in possession and that makes it a platform to build from.  

Points & performances matter at this stage. Points wise we're about where we were last season  but performances have been better. I think (hope) we'll start to see more of Holtby & Rothwell in particular this next round of games,  now that we're a bit more comfortable in possession.

I'm fairly upbeat, and think there's enough plus points about where we are to have realistic expectations of a top 6 finish.

As fans of a club like Rovers and given what we've suffered, I think sometimes we focus on faults more than positives. An outsider looking in (with ref to Ian Dowie's apparent comments, or the comments of other non-biased observers or even opposition fans) can have a better perspective than we sometimes do. We are, and should be, our own worst critics, but in the main we're viewed as a developing team, with good strength in depth & as dangerous opponents. If we can just find that final ball better / sooner, capitalise on that with more efforts on target then we'll be a real threat IMO.

8 hours ago, tomphil said:

A team with the correct balance put together on modest investment to specifically do one job, oh for the days.. ?

Newell cost us £1m didn't he? How much would that approximate to in today's crazy market? £15m upwards I'd say, so perhaps not that modest...

Nice to see some respect for the Atko though... ?

Very disappointing result and performance from Rovers yesterday to say the least. I've not seen any replays so what follows is my take from the stands.

After a bright start with some fine approach play & recycling of possession, we went to pot after they scored through some weak defending (though offside?). Got it back again a bit after Travis scored, but again weak defending from a free kick did for us.

There were too many players who, across the piece, were below par. Walton, Williams & Lenihan not dominant enough, Johnson too slow playing forwards, Downing not incisive, Armstrong & Dack anonymous, Gallagher ineffective.

I personally think this defeat was down to the players though, more than the manager. They were too complacent, and that can't be the manager's doing because he always warns of the opposition's dangers, as is oft pointed out on here.  The starting 11 was strong, as most agreed on here who commented, and should have done a lot, lot better.

The officials were awful, allowed time wasting from the 6th minute. The booking in injury time was laughable. 2 offside decisions went against us, and their second goal was a v weak free kick to give against Cunningham. But the reasons we lost go beyond that.

It's sad to see some more "Mowbray Out" posts. OTT again for me, far too overreactive after a (albeit very disappointing) defeat. Yes he could have made changes a bit earlier or more effectively, but it's the players that should take the lion's share of the blame, they just weren't good enough individually. At least there's a chance on Tuesday to correct the position, but there's a lot more unnecessary pressure on that game now.

Plus I don't consider having a loan keeper is automatically a bad thing, so long as he is a decent standard; it's his ability that counts and so far a direct comparison between Raya's & Walton's performances is favourable to Walton pretty much across the board. 

Sheff Utd did ok with a loan keeper last year and he's back there again, so it needn't be a bar to success nor a season-only option if it suits all parties. And as pointed out above, maybe next summer there'll be richer pickings available than there were this summer.

I reckon he'll start on Saturday, probably in place of Evans from last week's starting lineup.

As for Lewis Holtby...

On 23/09/2019 at 12:55, AAK said:

I would agree with that. Was arguing with mates other day, they were saying "what a great win" after the Reading game, however I said that it wasn't a great win, as I think we should be beating teams like that and like Millwall. We need to get away from that mentality of being happy with winning such games, we are more than capable of beating most teams in the league and should be pushing for top 6.

Whilst I agree that in isolation we shouldn't be considering a 2-1 win at Reading as a great result, it's definitely possible to argue that it was great in the context of showing improvement in seeing out the victory / game management, and for putting together back to back victories at this point in time, when most of us agree this run of games is a key barometer of what we might achieve this season. 

I've no idea if that's what your mates were suggesting of course, but to me the ability to go 2 goals up, concede, but then not collapse (& indeed see the game out pretty comfortably from what I hear) is a huge improvement from where we were last season. Being able to bring on the likes of Graham, Johnson & Holtby, with all their nouse, guile & experience, is a massive bonus in my opinion and should stand us in good stead going forwards.

Isn't the issue here more about whether Gallagher is a striker or a forward? A striker, either by talent or formation, scores goals and does little else. It's the role of the rest of the team to get the ball to him so he can strike. Like Rhodes.

Gallagher is not a striker, or at least he's not being utilised as one. He's playing as a forward, mainly in a wider role but pretty much anywhere across the front / midfield in a way that's inter changing with other forwards and attacking midfielders. In that role he's there to create problems for defenders that he or team mates can profit from, whilst also tracking back when required out wide.

He's therefore being played differently to how Graham was last season, as he's being asked to play a wider role far more often due to his pace & mobility, something Graham never had, so they're not directly comparable. Though I accept Graham has more to his game than being just a striker too.

Overall, his contributions in games is excellent imo, though we'd all be happier if he scored more goals like we know he can. We can debate about whether or not he's being utilised in his best position by TM, but ultimately he's an important cog in the wheel of a team that is playing well & winning games. That's not just my opinion, or me repeating the manager's words; wasn't it Rigger who said Reading's fans thought he was our best player,  or words to that effect?

Great result yesterday, this ability to see games out is a thing of beauty. Ok they hit the post and had us under the cosh for a bit, but you expect the home team to fight, yet we were able to call on some guile & experience to counter that and bag the win. 

This is what we were crying out for last season. All those point-scoring positions squandered in the last 10 mins. If (early days yet I know) we can keep that side of our game up & maintain what we did last year, that gap between 17th & top 6 becomes much narrower and we should be in the mix. We'll need a bit of luck with injuries & suspensions (esp Tosin, I'm beginning to wonder if he's made of glass) but most teams do across a season.

If we can pull results & performances like that out with Evans in the team, Travis below par, & the likes of Rothwell, Graham, Holtby, Johnson & others waiting in the wings, there's real promise there.

Far from perfect, but I'm definitely in the camp that TM knows where he wants us to be & how to get there, and I can see the pieces of his jigsaw gradually coming together. We have options in the squad in term of systems & styles that can be employed as the situation desires, be if from kick off or mid game. That's a great position to be in imo.

We've 2 very important fixtures coming up now, which can really put a marker down for us. But we mustn't take Luton lightly, arguably that cost us against Charlton. Approach that game right, and there's no reason we can't build on this.

On 17/09/2019 at 17:57, Mattyblue said:

Good a place as any. Official team picture.

Is that the lesser spotted Coar I see next to Waggott?

Is it a trick of photography, or do Armstrong's feet not touch the ground?! ?

This could be a problem for some clubs & their creative accounting techniques...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49600851

"Rovers fan" my arse.

20 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Utterly typical of the arrogant approach to Rovers fans and ticket sales.

Our fanbase won’t increase while Waggott is in charge of policy unless somehow we fluke it to the PL. Even then I wouldn’t be at all surprised if ST prices went up significantly to reflect the “quality of the opposition”.

Has there been a single positive move made by Waggott towards fans? I consider the price freeze neutral and necessary.

This is in the Bolton thread Stuart, so I guess Matty's referring to them...

Just now, SamTheLeedsRover said:

There was actually more blame on the 2nd goal. Lenihan just stood there in the box watching the player lay it off to Livermore once it had come back off the bar. He should have been out straight away to close it down. Johnson should have been marking Livermore. All far to casual and easy for them.

It's a bit harder to defend a second ball when it pings back off the crossbar and lands at the feet of an opponent, but I take your point. The key is to stop it arriving in the first place, and Arma was close enough to the ball when it was pulled back to have cut out the cross-shot had he been more alert to the obvious danger.

I agree that the first goal was all on Cunningham, the second on Arma and the third on Lenihan (top finish by Phillips mind).

Just watched Sky's highlights on YouTube. So biased, they show none of our second half chances but 3 if WBA's. Don't know why I'm surprised though...

I guess we'll all just have to wait and see how it all pans out. We either improve on last season significantly (acceptable), marginally, not at all or deteriorate (all unacceptable).

I think there are credible signs that it can be the former and that TM deserves a fair crack of this season's whip to try; but I wholly understand the concern of others who don't share my optimism given that TM is not perfect and that's fine.

But canning him and rolling the new manager dice now would be counter productive and too risky in my opinion when, season on season, this club has improved to something approaching normality under his stewardship. 

3 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

I don’t think you do see the ‘big picture’ Atko. 

You seem to think these young players will keep improving and fulfil their potential, ergo improving the side. Many a young player simply doesn’t kick on. 

The top end players that should be there to supplement said young lads can quickly end up over the hill - prime example Mulgrew, and unfortunately Graham seems to be heading that way, or they leave - could well be Dack’s last season. You are then back to square one, hoping the next batch of young lads improve and we carry on ad infinitum with this ‘slow build ‘ that never actually builds.

‘This time next year Rodders...’

Can't argue with most of that, though I've never said or implied let's just rely on kids who are in the first team now, or on those coming through the Academy. I think we have a right to expect 1 or 2 a season to make the grade, but it's been about blending youth with experience, reinvesting sale proceeds wisely and rebuilding the club from the bottom up.

Fortunately we can do that because for all their multitude of mistakes, at least Venkys kept paying to keep Cat 1 academy status.

4 hours ago, 47er said:

Premature?!! He's been here nearly 3 years!!

Well, yes he has, but this is the first season he's started in the same division he finished the previous one in. 

His aim in his first summer window was to rebuild confidence in an ailing club and to build a squad to get out of L1 at the first time of asking, which he did.

His second full season was a very different task, the main aim being to consolidate our position in the Championship, which he did pretty comfortably. That takes a very different set of playing & managerial styles to achieve as the quality of opponent is much stronger.

This season (his third full season) is the first time he's starting in the same division he finished in, and this time the aim is top 6. Again, that takes a very different type of approach & better quality of player to achieve, and of course the jury's out on whether he can achieve that.

So to therefore say, just because he's been here for 3 years, that he's had 3 years to gel together a squad with a style (as opposed to just a team spirit) sufficient to get promoted to the PL is a little disingenuous.  Yes some clubs have bounced through with consecutive promotions, but they're the exception rather than the rule.

I don't expect to dissuade you (or anyone else)  from your opinion, which of course you are entitled to; I'm just giving mine, which I like to think is pretty even handed and realistic, all things considered.

28 minutes ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

so if for the sake of discussion, we all agree with your wisdom, what do you feel is a fair number of games or time to wait before judging Tony's performance against the top 6 target ?

 

I don't presume to have wisdom above anyone else, just think I have a balanced opinion that can see the bigger picture.

I've said previously, the next international break will be a good time for a fairer assessment, which I think is another 6 games. I would expect 10 points or more from the next 6 games; 2 or more less than that and our ability to progress ought to be seriously questioned. There may then of course be good reasons for not meeting that requirement (injuries, suspensions, poor officiating) which ought to be factored in, but overall we'll have a better idea if we have the right style, personnel & management staff to progress and whether its appropriate to consider drastic, risky changes.

Just now, 47er said:

Exactly, being 3 points from 6th means nothing!

 

So equally getting 7 points from our first 6 games isn't a stick to beat TM with, which was (and is) my main point!! ?

1 hour ago, Blue blood said:

We're no nearer to gelling than the start of last season! To say we're taking time to find the right combination is an understatement. We either can't score or can't defend, have spent £15 mill on strikers who can't get in the team up front and still are using a midfielder as a stand in right back.

Added to which if we don't succeed this season we take a huge step backwards as arguably 6 first team players - Walton, Cunningham, Tosin, Downing, Johnson and Graham - will need replacing. No way that can be considered a slow build. And given TMs indifferent ability in the transfer market the idea of replacing so many players fills me with dread. 

Every team in every division will probably have a minimum turnaround of 5 or 6 players every summer so nothing new there. You can still build a stronger squad whilst doing so.

Some of the changes you allude to for next season are already happening now. TM is trying to phase the Graham / Dack combo out now in favour of a less direct approach. Johnson should have at least 1 more season in him at this standard. Yes we could lose Dack, but the money received for him and his relatively indifferent start to this season means he may not be missed that much. Meanwhile we have Rothwell, Travis, Buckley, JRC, Butterworth, Nyambe, Magloire all in or around the 1st team squad, with Chapman, Vale, Lyons all showing well at U23 level amongst others.

The target's not (or shouldn't be) promotion or bust this season for Mowbray, though that should be the bullseye.  It should to be organic & tangible improvement from last season, meaning if we don't go up this season then we're better placed to do so the next.