Shaddy

I feel this is the problem. He's over achieved, and now the level of expectation from elements of the club (including from what I am increasingly coming to believe, a set of supporters that are more cynical about their club than any others in this league) is too unrealistic. I believe that Souness's comments about avoiding relegation being the milestone were exactly the level of expectation he had. I agree with that level of ambition. But he became a victim of his own success. In our first season back, avoiding relegation was exactly what we were trying to do by mid-season, even with Duff and Dunn making regular starts. Not putting them down at all, the former is obviously an outstanding player, but I do recall many moaning on this mb about Duff's performance. Souness bought Cole into the club, and 10th and the league cup followed. Suddenly we became a club in Europe, and everyone upped their level of expectation. Last season, Souness again made avoiding the drop the milestone, and was criticised by many for lacking ambition (including RevidgeBlue, quite forcefully). In my opinion, it was the right level of ambition. Again he made some astute signings, and we made 6th and Europe again. Souness has been consistent with the avoiding relegation milestone, and he set it again this season, despite last seasons 6th placing. He's in the process of achieving this milestone with the club, and we stand a good chance of making it. Yet everyone wants him sacked now. Or thinks he's hit the wall. The club has hit the wall. It is pushing to maintain the up'ed level of ambition, and that means it has really made itself financially vunerable. A transfer won't occur if the club cannot offer the player a good Premeir League wage, and yet we all feel that we need to keep bringing players in. To me, it's not just about the playing staff at the club. There is more to it than that. I will be brave and say this. Imagine there was no promotion out of Division 1. Then I would expect Blackburn Rovers to be consistently challenging for the first division championship. With a good level of support, and the annual cash injection , it would be an acceptable level of expectation. It just so happens that you get promoted into the Premier League if you are successful in that division. In my opinion, clubs of our stature should use the extra cash to adjust the existing player wages, and no more. Any additional progression should just be treated as a bonus. I think Rovers were tracking on this path, until our sudden success got us derailed. Charlton and Fulham appear to have followed the same path, and are only now climbing into the upper reaches of the league. It will be interesting to see how they will handle it. Admittedly, if Charlton pull of Champions League placement, that would be an incredible achievement that might set the club for many years in the PL. Anyway, I've waffled on here. The main point is that I will be brave and say that I would rather see Rovers on a sound financial footing, bouncing up and down between PL and Div. One, then over-extending in some forlorn belief that success can be maintained. Oh, and also, that the only con I can place against Souness is that he is perhaps too ambitious for this plan of action.

Not to mention, you would want to spare yourself the personal conflict of interest of supporting Rovers and having a financial stake in Leeds. Imagine it's between Leeds and Rovers for the final relegation spot, and your investment in Leeds rides on them, or even tip scales in them coming out on top. No-ones even mentioned that yet... sheesh

The result of November poll was overwhelmingly in support of Souness. I would be interested to see how much the loss to Bolton would have dented this.

Mods, I guess I am being selfish, because I want to prove a point. Is there any possibility of another Souey poll? It might be counter-productive, but I think that the Souey out brigade are quite vocal, but the messageboard masses might have a different message.

Honourable? That would be quitting, where is the honour in that? No-one, not in this day of age, and not in some sentimental version of the past, forgoes an entitlement such as this. You know that too, so your statement is made to the effect that should his contract be terminated, you can criticise him for taking his entitlement. It's consistent with your stance on Souness.

If we sack Souness now, we will be laughing stock of the league. Football fans are always guilty of being too ambitious. Every season since Division One Souness has said the same thing, priority is avoiding relegation. We've been privellaged with two seasons of over-achieving, with regards to that stated aim. Now that we are actually setting out to achieve priority number one, everyone is shocked and dismayed. Some have criticised Souness for lacking ambition by making relegation avoidance the priority, and they just never have been realistic. Rovers have to accept that they will be battling to stay in the Premier League all the time, because BRFC *is* a small club. Case in point - we finished sixth in the league, only two (or three?) positions below Chelsea, and had no comeback on the Chelsea offer, such as a better wage offer, something that could overwhelm Duff to stay. Admittedly, fewer supposedly *big* clubs would have been able to do the same, but you can catch my drift with the example. I might be a wimp, but after the hurt of relegation and the destitution of the first season in division one, I took the promotion, that without question can be credited to our now much derided manager, with a promise never to hope for more than one place above the drop, for as long as we could stay in the Premier League.

Ok. What are you trying to say? He's squandered it? Fair enough. You haven't said, so I'll ask, do you want him sacked? Wouldn't that, coupled by this statement indicate that sacking him would be punishing him for squandering the cash? I charge that, sacking as a punishment, with no better alternative, at this stage would be suicidal for the club. I don't want to see him sacked at all, but I can understand if people will maintain he be sacked, even if we stay up. Fair enough, but calls for sacking him now are pointless. It would cost too much, and the next manager has to motivate the same bunch of players. Souness proved in the previous three seasons that he understands these players enough. He's still, despite the results, in the best position to know what motivates them, and extract the best performance. If they are not good enough, that's his fault, because he purchased them, but let's not hand over to another manager to extract an even worse performance.

In my opinion, if we go down with Souness, we were going to go down anyway. Don't get me wrong, he would be at fault, but sacking as a punishment now is wreckless. It would cost us any transfer money we have, the new manager would have to do with entirely the same playing staff as Souness. In my opinion, sacking Souness is not going to stave of relegation should it remain a possibility. If we sack Souness now, let's scan the list of available managers, and select the manager with the best credentials, the most success, that we could attract to the club, and who do we have? Graeme Souness. And also, I said the same. If we go down, it will be permanent.

In my opinion, there is no wisdom in sacking Souness. A contracted employee does not suddenly lose their rights to the contracted salary. We already, apparently, have very little for transfers, should we blow it all on sacking the manager? I'm just listening to a Leeds supporter and more poignantly, Man. City supporters despairing about their team, and the latter about City throwing away their lead, in a game they needed to win after a bad run. It's happening all over. Let's say we are going down, lets wait for it to happen, and then sign a manager for Division 1, who will put up with the shedding of playing staff and the downsizing for life out of the premiership (which would be permanent in my view). If we are rash with the clubs money, we'll not even be able to sustain a division one outfit.

Sorry philip, I'm having a bit of a time comprehending all this. I just want to clarify, do the American investors have final say on whether the club should be wound down and all assets sold? You have mentioned scenarios where they administer the club for the remander of their guarantee period, 25 years? This seems to preclude that they might take the option of winding down Leeds United. Is this because it is obvious, and thus, not mentioned, that Leeds do have some value, in that they are already established as the only League club from Leeds city, and it would be extremely unlikely that they went out of the League? And as we all would appreciate, once you are in the League, especially with the support of a city like Leeds, you always stand a chance of achieving football success, and the financial success that comes with it. Am I thinking right here? If I am, then there is no chance that Leeds would fold. But just for the sake of speculation, if Leeds United did go out of business, as I understand it, there would be no team from Leeds in the football league. Can that be right? In terms of promotion of the game, surely the FA would seek to right this? Especially in a place like Leeds, where Rugby is quite strong as well, I gather. What are the real options here? Can the FA setup, or select another non-league club from Leeds and automatically promote them to the Football League? I haven't a clue how this all works.

rover6, would it be right to say that the same banter that had your blood level rising, and cursing this messageboard and its members, in relation to the official one... has now got you hooked on this site? Lot of fun isn't it

Congratulations England. Well deserved victory. Lost the majority of the fifty-fifties with the ref too. Finally, an England team shows true grit. Can Rugby League have it's players back now?

IT'S NOT "FOOTBALL" !!! If it's not a "form of football", what would you say it is then Tris? (too open a question I know. I'm wincing in anticipation)

I've just had a look at the Australian line-up for the first time, and it's just resembles the Queensland Rugby League team of the recent past. I don't think it would be biased to claim that Australia Rugby League's State of Origin series, involving the QRL team, is one of the most exciting forms of football, and in my biased opinion, the pinnacle of both Rugby codes. It is three battles of attrition (ok, two if the series is decided early), played at a lightning pace, with an intense rivalry thrown into the mix. It is no wonder that Sailor, Tuqri, and Rogers are starters in this WC final.

I severly doubt that somehow... Apparantly they do get paid more than our footballers over here. Jordan....can you remember what his name was? having lived out there for 12 years i can tell you that if they did get paid what our footy players get then there would be no such thing as the australian rugby league. even at $70k per week (and not pounds)....i tell you matey no chance the league would be bankrupt. the top players in the league earn about about $400,000k per year...he took the @#/? out of you mate. ROVERS FOREVER thats very true blueboy, absolute sh1te the guys was spinning As well, there is an AUD$3.25 million salary cap per club. On 70k pounds a week, a single player would blow the cap in under half the season. Make it AUD, and the same player still blows the cap in under a year. I should know all about salary cap, my club blew it apart the season before last and dropped from heading the competition to last, after losing 34 odd points. And for those on here who despair at the attitude of some board members not getting behind England, just because it's Rugby... I won't be getting behind the Wallabies.. To me, Union is the mortal enemy, and there is another more important match taking place on Saturday. Go the Kangaroos for the clean sweep against the Lions. Now... I'll get my coat

What am I listening to? I'm listening to The Score, by The Fugees. I know, I know, it's taken me this long to catch on, but I am very glad I got around to buying this one. One of the best Hip-Hop albums ever.

The BBC have revealed that David Kelly was the source of the "sexed up" dossier claim. The man has, apparently, no inneudo from me, commited suicide. I believe that such an act, if it is linked to the Iraq WMD row, is a truer sign of a man who has stood by his convictions, then another who has merely given us those words, and expected us to drop our accounting of his actions and behaviour.

Anyone else captivated by this latest twist, with the apparent suicide of Iraq weapons expert David Kelly?

We were lied to by our governments colin. They never existed. Not only lied to, but collectively commited to an immoral, illegal *crusade* by our governments, in my firm belief, against our will. How many people still consider it a force of liberation? You know, I believe many of those that had an opinion either way cannot bring ourselves to discuss Iraq anymore. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth, and I have no stomach for the recriminations.

Spot on blue phil. I spoke about the sensitivity of the Shia topic and got shouted down, but you best believe that this has opened a can of worms. Fundamentalists, extremists now have the relative freedoms to influence the politics of the country. Just how much of that will the U.S tolerate, given that it could result in an Iraq with much in common with it's Islamic revolutionary neighbour Iran? Will they have to be forcefull... perhaps repressive, to quell this movement?

<SPAN lang="zh-pinyin"> er4 shi2 liu4 </SPAN> I'm not lying

Actually, just want to say something. It is only a messageboard, but I think some of the long-terms on here recognise that it has a fertile one in terms of topic and banter since day one. So, although we must bear in mind that it is a only a messageboard, you can't blame anyone for taking it oh so seriously. From a personal standpoint, I don't dislike either jim or thenodrog. But then again, it takes a bit for me to build a dislike to someone. Mind you, I rarely ever agree with the bulk of their postings, and in those circumstances accept some as part of on-line persona (which is a seperate topic. on-line vs. off-line/social persona). It's easy to avoid the post rage. Just button it when you feel your emotions are getting the best of you, and if you can't, at least avoid direct abuse in your posts. I do think though, it would be impossible to arbitrate on veiled, indirect comments/abuse, so it isn't fair to pillar the mods for that.

but it sure is entertaining