8 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

None taken, we’re all used to people on here reading things and then applying their own lense and putting 2+2 together to get 5.

So, in the interests of clarity. Joe Rothwells Dad was on the train to Coventry City and interjected a group of Rovers fans discussing (slagging) the team off. Began the conversation with “Hey, don’t talk about my lad like that….” then went on to say everything in my last post. That did happen, fact. This has been further corroborated by two or three other posters on here, who as far as we know have independently backed up those claims. Him saying this stuff is pretty standard and NOTHING like the Trippier stuff. Odd that you’ve made that link.

So, feel free to cast aspersions on the character of Rothwells Dad if you like. The truth is that he didn’t really give a fuck about speaking out. His lad had been denied a potential chance to x4 his wages and has pretty much downed tools since January anyway. He’ll 100% not be playing for us next season.

I appreciate there are some on here who just don’t want to believe it because it jars with their understanding of how football / life works. That’s fine, iv just tried to give as much info as possible about a conversation which did actually occur.

For four months, not forever - he can demand whatever wages he wants and ask for a considerable signing on fee in June.  And sorry if my memory is playing tricks on me, but wasn't it common knowledge on the final day of the transfer window that Bournemouth pulled out of the deal with Rothwell already on his way down there? The story I recall is that they plumped for Keiffer Moore instead?   Has it since become common knowledge that our illustrious owners did indeed veto the deal?  Is there any evidence for it?

His Dad sounds like a bit of a clown to be honest.  I bet he wasn't bad mouthing Rovers when we signed him and paid him a stack more than Oxford would have been doing - if Rovers did reject a deal for him then they were completely within their rights and shouldn't make any apologies for doing so.

2 hours ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

The awful Rothwell lol

Yeh I don't really go along with this idea that Rothwell has been a complete nonentity since February.  He's the only midfielder we have that will actually go and get the ball off the defence.  Travis is a workhorse and a breaker up of play, but he hasn't got a creative bone in his body.   

He might be inconsistent, and like all of our players he hasn't been able to maintain his strong form of the first half of the season, but I don't feel like he's been missing in action.  As I say, he's the only one who consistently shows for the ball, travels with the ball and tries to make things happen.  We were much improved once he came on and actually offered a bit of ball retention vs Stoke. 

Oh, and we'll be worse off without him next season because he'll be bloody difficult to replace. 

28 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

That's the crux of it, for me the owners have never grasped that the key to success is to appoint a top class manager and give him a workable budget.

Mowbray has had the workable budget and then some but for me has only ever been interested in prolonging his stay at the Club until retirement for financial reasons and has cemented his own position by surrounding himself with allies on and off the pitch and wasting the Club's money on them.

Top class chairman would be my priority. Decent chance a good manager would then follow.

Venky's biggest mistake in their entire ownership was belittling, ignoring and needlessly driving away John Williams, Tom Finn et al. Trusting Anderson was a disaster and something they've never ever recovered from.  Agnew, Shaw, Cheston, Waggott.... Whoever else, they've all been hopeless yes men. 

IMO they're still nursing their burnt fingers and bruised ego's and have been terrified ever since to trust anyone. Bloody Mowbray got Waggott the job which is a disgrace in itself! 

3 minutes ago, Gav said:

Nice bit of research Jimmy, but why hasn't the better half got you putting up some shelving or painting a fence this sunny bank holiday weekend?

I've just looked at the side he took up as Champions:

West Brom: Kiely, Hoefkens, Barnett, Clement (Albrechtsen 53), Robinson (Moore 72), Koren, Gera, Brunt, Greening, Bednar (Kim 46), Phillips.
Subs Not Used: Miller, Morrison.

I'd wager the entire was wasn't worth much more £25m back then let alone the bench!

Anyway must run, another fence panel to paint......

 

Haha, trick is to set your alarm early and enjoy an hour before she ruins your day!  I’m about to weed and feed the lawn. 
 

Do take in to account though, that this is now… 14 years ago? The cost of football is more or less incomparable. Perhaps there is some ratio or formula would allow a comparison… rather like currency or monetary value over the years. 
 

Even so, if you’re outspending the majority of your rivals by double or triple, you should really be expecting to win the league. He did that, great, but let’s have the full picture if possible. 

11 minutes ago, tomphil said:

So we can conclude it isn't ALL about budget, unless it involves TM

My opinion is he needs a decent budget just to tread water .

If he didn't get a midtable budget here and have the facilities and academy players to select he has we'd have been bang in trouble years ago. Just like under Coyle or anyone else of that ilk yet there are managers out there who out perform us every season with less, this is a fact.

Alternatively he needs a whopping budget to get anywhere near a genuine promotion because that allows for the mistakes. More good players the more you can change things, cover injuries and have guys who pulls games out of the mire when you are bad. Stands to reason and no surprise there but it displays he isn't a great manager with a plan just a guy who needs a big helping hand to gain any advantage at all. It's never tactical or getting blood from a stone and he really is no over achiever at all.

West Brom / Rovers lge 1 - biggest budgets and spending power by some way and taking over squads full of players of pedigree for the league above  -  Result =  Promotion

Boro / Rovers Championship - Modest budget, squad, backing = Midtable messiah 

Cov lge 1 - No budget = Backwards at an alarming rate after a decent start. 

So the upshot is to get anywhere at all at any club Tony Mowbray and his gang need a whopping budget, big wage bill and quality already in place to build around.

Otherwise it's a yearly midtable finish and being told to be grateful for it.

I haven’t analysed the League One spends in 2018 or whenever it was, but there’s good reason to believe that his two markedly successful campaigns as a manager have correlated with him having probably the highest budget and likely strongest squads in the league.  Neither were a shock or an underdog story, so to speak. 

There is of course the argument that you still have to get it done.  Souness would have had an enormous budget in Div 1, perhaps more than Fulham at the time, I genuinely have no idea.  Although I seem to think they splashed big on Saha who was ridiculous in that league.  Malbranque and Boa Morte too maybe?

14 hours ago, Gav said:

I’m sure they never had £25m+ of players sat on the bench like they had at Ewood earlier this season.

But do carry on, it makes for entertaining reading. 

This comment did prompt me to do a bit of research. Here are the final Championship league positions that season with the basic, outgoing transfer spend on playing staff. Source is TransferMarkt.  Rather than plod through all 24 clubs Ive tried to take a cross section of those clubs who may have been higher spenders, I.e. former PL or larger city clubs. 
 

1st - WBA - £20m

2nd - Stoke - £6.25m

3rd - Hull - £2.81m

4th - Bristol City - £3.78m

5th - Palace - £1.49m

6th - Watford - £9.38m

7th - Wolves - £6.75m

9th - Sheff United - £8.91 

11th - Charlton - £12.18m

12th - Cardiff - £0.00

14th - QPR - £8.93m

17th - Norwich - £2.03m

20th - Saints - £2.81m

22nd - Leicester - £7.79m

So, considering in the previous 3 seasons they had also spent a combined £30m with a net spend of £18m or so, it’s actually quite logical to think they may have had quite an expensive bench, certainly by Championship standards.  WBA were big spenders and whilst TM clearly succeeded, it would have been a minimum expectation to get promoted I would imagine.  He outspent all other clubs by close to double!

This doesn’t take in to account net spend that season.  They sold £29m of players in the summer, including a combined £15m on Diomansy Kamara and Jason Koumas, £5m on Nathan Ellington, £4m on Kusczack to United etc etc. But, on balance, £20m spend in the Champ at that time (on top of an expensively assembled squad from previous years) was quite a war chest!

The following season they spent a further £22m but went down dead last with 32 points.  So all in all, 3 seasons, £45m spent, one promotion and one relegation. 

Purely for our own nostalgia, in the 07/08 summer window Rovers spent £5.58m, most of which was on Santa Cruz.  We finished 7th in the Prem.  What a team that was! 
 

1 hour ago, Paul Mani said:

We won’t. It’s worse than getting relegated. Because he has this habit of creating hope and then flattening us with a Mowbray death spiral.

Weren’t you telling us all he’s already signed for another club?  Apologies if I have the wrong person. 

On 11/04/2022 at 10:53, Sparks Rover said:

The 2 examples I gave of poor signings are permanent, contracts for crap

Loans have been 50/50...

Elliott - ok for half a season 
Harwood Belllis - Wharton should have been  in, he did OK.
Khadra - jury out
JPVH - decent
Tosin - not for me
Harrison Reed - misused
Branthwaite - poor
Giles - poor

Sorry mate, he should have gone years ago...if he gets another deal I won't be going.
 

Well that isn't a very good comparison then is it....  The two players you referred at Preston and Forest are loan signings from PL clubs, so surely best to make the comparison with the loans we've had. 

Your list above... I'd probably agree with most, certainly not Tosin who's excellent.  I'd probably put Giles down as 'misused' rather than poor... TM trying to get him to play RW has been ridiculous.  I'd also argue Elliott was misused to an extent as well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending TM - this isn't me trying to justify he continues as Rover manager.  I just think of all the elements of his managerial tenure, his loan signings probably haven't been so bad.

13 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

He's a dinosaur...look at the managers in this league....2 examples.

Cooper - Young upcoming, has coached through the England age groups, that's why Keenan Davies is at Forest....

Lowe - young upcoming manager with current contacts, Gerrard who gave him Archer....

Our dinosaur gets crap from his brother in Scotland or shit goalies that are sons of his mates.....old school and bang average ...

Mogadon Out 

Whilst there's plenty of room for justified debate around Mowbray's ability as a manager, criticism of his loan signings is a bit of an odd approach...  we've fairly consistently signed players from the top clubs around England.  There is a question whether Mowbray has utilised them to their best effect of course...

Elliott
Harwood Belllis
Khadra
JPVH
Tosin
Harrison Reed
Branthwaite
Giles

Whilst some of those haven't worked out as well as hoped, many have been arguably our player of the season or at least a high performer for large periods of seasons.   In my opinion his permanent signings require far more scrutiny.
 

3 hours ago, K-Hod said:

Whilst it is a valid question in many ways to query who we will appoint if Mowbray leaves, if we are just to stick with Mowbray for eternity in the hope that he gets it right, I’d be asking what the point of it all is tbh. 

Absolutely agree, it's a horrible situation..... there's lots of examples of clubs parting ways with a 'safe pair of hands' in order to progress their ambitions as a club.  Brighton sacking Hughton was certainly seen as a risk, but Potter has done well....  Saints canning Adkins after two promotions was seen as madness until Pochettino proved himself.   There's probably plenty of examples in the Championship as well if anyone can be bothered to have a think.

So you roll the dice.... the problem with Rovers is that I would expect a shite appointment, purely based on the last 10 years and the lack of any kind of know-how throughout the senior management.  

Those on here saying 'anyone could do better than Mowbray' either have very short memories or haven't been paying any attention for the last decade.  Probably the same people that said anyone could do better than Bowyer, whilst totally underestimating the incompetence of our ownership.

4 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

No I don’t expect anyone better to replace him, he’s done fine with the budgets he’s had in this league.

My point was more that outside perhaps, Dalglish and Hughes, top, top managers for us in their own ways, I’ve never known any other manager be so bulletproof with large swathes of the support as this mon is. I suppose it’s a sign of how standards and expectations have nosedived since this shower turned up nearly 12 years ago…

Not sure - I think much of the fan base have had enough of TM now.... thing is, there's never been a really defining moment on the pitch whereby the crowd have turned.... last season was behind closed doors let's not forget.  I felt it might have been on the way at the Sheff United game when we conceded in 30 seconds.... that was a really defining moment for TM, and proved to be a springboard to a fantastic 2 months.

I think we're beginning to move towards another moment like that.... the first half of Derby showed signs.  A negative result/non-performance at Coventry followed by a goal for Blackpool at Ewood and I think you'll start to see a turning of the tide as promotion slips away.  Many fans won't want to turn yet, whilst the top 6 remains a possibility.

8 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

How many of those appointments were the fans happy with at the time ? How many were on the radar before they were sprung on us. I’ll hold my hand up for Lambert ( partially because he was also bringing in good assistants ) , but I didn’t want any of the others.

Completely and utterly irrelevant..... in fact, you've reiterated my point a thousand times over.  You, Me and any other fan of Rovers aren't remotely involved in the process of appointing a new manager. So whilst many of us clearly see value in a change, we must confront the elephant in the room...  the selection process will be handled by the very same people that appointed the 7 (not including Lambert) managers that you didn't want.

12 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

It’s all anecdotal, as around me I’d get my head bitten off if I even offered up mild criticism.

He signs a new contract on the pitch pre KO against Blackpool and I certainly wouldn’t expect to hear much in the way of dissent.

‘Good move by the club’
‘Who else we going to get?’, ‘STABILISED the club!’

Good question though, isn't it?  Whilst a lot of Rovers fans (myself included) will agree Mowbray's time is probably coming to an end, you CANNOT just remain oblivious to the terrifying fact that the next appointment is likely to be the responsibility of some combination of Waggott (if he stays on), Pasha and our illustrious owners.  Which of that lot are going to make a sensible appointment?

Just to jog one or two memories;

Steve Kean
Eric Black    
Henning Berg
Michael Appleton
Gary Bowyer
Paul Lambert
Owen Coyle
Tony Mowbray

Love him, like him, loathe him.... or wherever you sit in between those, Mowbray has done alright, probably verging on decent in his first 3 full seasons.  Last season ended in disarray and anger, this season might slide in to a huge case of what could have been, and there's no doubt the longer he remains, the more he appears to tarnish his time at the club. 

BUT, which of the 8 above have (or could have) done any better?  Maybe  make an argument for Bowyer...  Some might argue for Lambert, but the reality is he couldn't stick the owners, and that HAS to be another warning sign for those who think any half decent calibre manager would simply stroll through the door. 

It is a bit of a classic case of look before you leap... except in this particular case, us fans are blindfolded and those holding the safety net aren't offering any clues whatsoever as to where the fuck it is.

33 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Would think Alex Neill is sat in his Longridge home rubbing his hands!

Going in as Bruce's assistant? Don't envy him that journey everyday... the M6 is an accident waiting to happen. 

2 minutes ago, Paul Mellelieu said:

Report on twitter saying Rovers after Armstrong back on loan.

Not a chance

8 minutes ago, Danny O.Brien said:

It's time to shit or bust. I'd rather get fucked by ffp and all that comes with it then let this chance slip. Not my money l know 😂

Laughed Steve Waggott, as he submitted an audacious £200m bid for Mo Salah at 10:37pm.

19 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Sorry, think that's absolute rubbish.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating of course but what's £3.3m in the general scheme of things if as a result the wheels fall off at our end and Bournemouth go up?

Could work the other way of course but if not it's probably one of the worst if not the worst single decision in the history of the Club.

Certainly the most costly at £100m plus parachute payments minimum.

A risk we simply didn't need to take.

 

Had no idea we were guaranteed promotion with Rothwell in the side. Do you think someone should tell TM? 

5 minutes ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

With folk like you the owners can never do right for doing wrong.

 

And Saint Mowbray & cronies are complete innocents in everything 🙄

I’d say on this it’s the other way round.  Mowbray isn’t perfect, but you have to take each situation individually, and on this one I don’t think he’s done a lot wrong.  You, Rev and others want to dig him out for everything. 

2 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Hope not jim.

Different positions and replacing a £6m player (if the offer is to be believed) with a £200k one isn't the way to win promotion.

Literally same interview we’re discussing he said Hedges isn’t a replacement for Rothwell.  You seem to have very selective hearing regards this subject. 

4 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

It's 48 hrs before the end of the window! 

What might have been acceptable in the first week of January isn't now.

You and I are not privy to Rovers transfer discussions or plans…. So this is purely conjecture. 
 

2 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Because he said "What if" we could get x and y in?

 

He also said Joe Rothwell will NOT be leaving unless we get replacements in. 

5 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

People need to get real about what the other players think of Rothwell. It's a job to them, they'd think he was bloody crackers if he didn't ask to speak to another Club that was offering 6x his salary. If nothing came of it they wouldn't take it as a personal sleight he was leaving them in the lurch - it's business for them.

Why would we have any replacements lined up? We've been proceeding on the basis for 28 days of the window no-one will be allowed to leave (allegedly).

I’d sack Park on the spot if we didn’t have options lined up. A player with 4 months on his deal and clubs interested?!?!?
 

Get real about the players thoughts on Rothwell…. But let’s be realistic, there’s no way we’ve considered a single replacement for him 🙄

11 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

That's exactly what's happened isn't it?

The owners don't want to sell, Mowbray does and he's trying to ease him out of the door by manipulating opinion against him.

We all know Rothwell hasn't signed a new deal, it's no secret. However despite that the Club stance all January has firmly (and correctly imo) been no-one is leaving.

That's how it should stay. We shouldn't perform a U turn with 36-48 hours left of the window.

Obviously. They can’t very well release a statement saying “available to the highest bidder”.  Every player has his price, end of discussion. If a club has met Rothwell’s price, we should sell, or at the very least consider the offer and the further options to strengthen the squad.  Stubbornly sticking your fingers in your ears is something the owners have done for years, and it’s not very often resulted in the best course of action for the club.