roversfan99

Im not sure that it tends to work out too often when clubs try to mould Sporting Directors and Head Coach partmerships to try and cover all bases in terms of experience and new ideas. 

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

When things aren't going well having a crowd leads to nerves. Whether they are critical or not. It's straight forward really. 

Not having a crowd helped Brereton,  but obviously that can't be proven, unless he says it. 

Now that he is up and running I would expect that to continue, but not having a crowd came just at the right time for him. 

10 minutes ago, rovers11 said:

I think there being no crowd has hugely helped Brereton. It is way less pressure without fans in the stadium. I think the majority of fans were very supportive of him but I'm sure he could sense the frustration everytime he got the ball and mis-controlled it or gave it away (which was pretty much every time he was on the ball!).

His rise over the past 6 months has been incredible. We'll struggle to keep hold of him in the summer at this rate. In fact, the whole of our front three prob won't be here next season if we don't get promoted. 

If his improvement is largely down to the lack of crowd, surely as soon as they return he will go back to what he was as soon as we return? That could be a worry in that case, being good in an empty stadium looking longer term is a fairly worthless trait! Its impossible to allocate how much if any of the improvement is down to that though, I look at a physical change in him looking far stronger, I consider the change in style that we have adopted and the positional change of him being left of a 3, and also much better application and desire, maybe he has realised that he needs to do more. He also changed the game in the Swansea home game just before the lockdown so maybe the lack of crowds and his upturn have minimal correlation and indeed he would have improved regardless?

I certainly think it is too soon to be saying things like we will struggle to keep him in the summer. He has that 7m price tag on him still which will probably mean that we wont consider anything under that and there is no way that anyone will bid that sort of money for him at this time or indeed unless his contribution improves further still. With Armstrong, his departure may be inevitable if we dont go up simply because of the sheer number of goals, if Brereton chips in as he has started to do, then im not sure that he will necessarily become impossible to keep.

What tackle has cost us? The injury was fairly innocuous and it is unfair to attach any blame to Morsy.

Mowbray said this about him today:

"Bradley Dack is probably a week or so away now. He was telling me today next weekend, which is good," he added.

"Like any player coming back from a long-term injury, they have little setbacks along the way. It's not the smooth journey back that he wants but he's out there running round and kicking balls again today. He's happy and we have to accept sometimes the route back to first-team football isn't always smooth.

"He had an awareness in his hamstring last week but he was back out there kicking balls today and he's a week away."

I would like Holtby to sign on for an extra year or two but I do worry that a potential want to move back to Germany coupled with the owners disinterest making Mowbray struggle to be able to get contracts over the line based on his recent quotes may make this his last season at the club.

I doubt that pay as you play contracts exist, why would anyone in their right mind accept a contract in which a spell out of the team would lead to no income?

I really struggle with this theory that Brereton has suddenly turned his performance level around because there are no fans.

As others have touched on, Brereton has not been unfairly abused by the fans, in fact we have been very patient with him. No need for our own fans to make us out as a raging mob.

Also, if the difference is down to playing behind closed doors then the improvement is worthless if as soon as crowds return, he will return to being an incompetent clown!

That theory does him a disservice anyway. His application and effort have gone up lots, the change in style and formation seems to suit him and have found a role for him and he looks like he has bulked up. All more constructive explanations as to the changes in his game.

Theres surely no way that at the moment, he is worth more than 7m. His improvement is stark and very promising but he has only scored 5 goals as it stands in over 2 years so there is no way that anyone would pay that sort of fee for him.

10 would be a decent starting target. Lets assume he gets 10, rather than of course at the moment it being hypothetical/extrapolated, even then does a 10 goal "wide forward" warrant a 7m fee? Not sure it does really. But of course it would be an unexpected and impressive improvement, that is for sure.

Just now, JoeH said:

Listen Barkhuizen is a top player, a lad who's destroyed us on two or three occasions, and under a different circumstance, where Preston didn't play like a League Two team, it would have been a much more difficult night for Wharton and Douglas on that side. 

Both played extremely well on the night though.

Im not sure that Barkhuizen is a "top player" but even so, the one thing that we can be sure of based on his Rovers career to date (and highlighted again at Deepdale last season against Barkhuizen) is that Bell is not a competent defensive full back to face a player deemed as such a threat.

Just now, MarkBRFC said:

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't really want or need to see a "ball playing centre back".

Get your toe, head, knee what ever on things and give it to the lads in midfield who can influence things further up the pitch.

He's had a couple of good games coming in has Wharton, and at least should be above Williams in the pecking order now, as I think we all know as soon as Ayala is fit that Wharton is back on the bench.

Agree that the ability to play it out from the back is massively overstated, its mostly important to defend properly. I would say though that you do need a degree of competence on the ball though and that there have been a couple of times especially v Luton where he has created (usually minor) defensive problems by conceding possession in poor areas so it is important that he improves on the ball but defenders defend first and it is very difficult to expect centre backs at this level to do both sides of it.

Wharton doesnt get into our best 11 but I think he has shown to Mowbray that as one of 4 CBs he can be depended upon, which will be required especially as the other 3 are injury prone. Last season we were left short a couple of times, which saw bring Bennett in at RB and subsequently move Nyambe or bring in Carter and it cost us points.

No chance, he will need to do more and for much longer to justify that level of fee. More goals especially.

Thats not downplaying how much of a different player he appears to be or a criticism of him, but hes not worth 7m at the moment,

If someone offered 7m for him in January, I doubt we would turn it down.

I am a bit wary of saying things like Kaminski is "the best keeper since Friedel" so early although such a title is not the biggest of compliments anyway, I suppose the main competition would be Robinson who was decent at a higher level but of course also had a spell in which back problems, a blood clot and weight issues made him a liability for a while. Aside from him, the likes of Steele, Kean, Bunn, Eastwood, Walton etc, we have had some really poor goalkeepers, even Raya made his fair share of howlers, thats for sure,

In regards to him using us as a stepping stone, its easy to forget that a few months ago, he was dropped to second choice goalkeeper at Gent and his stock was low, their fans seemed pleased to see him leave. He has started his Rovers career very impressively and I think especially compared to the 3 games in which Pears played, he gives a real feeling of confidence to everyone. I dont think we need to worry about him being snatched off him by a PL club anytime soon though as it is early.

Has to be the same team in my opinion, there could be temptations to bring in Johnson, Dolan, Ayala if fit, Elliott etc but I would go same again and have Ayala and Johnson over Carter and Chapman as subs if available. Has to be a game we win, if we fail to we are just again back to square one.

The obvious thing with Wharton is that he is definitely a level or two above the other young centre backs that have played in the last couple of years.

When Magloire, Carter and Grayson have been given a couple of first team games, they have looked like boys rather than men. Wharton has clearly massively benefitted physically from playing nearly 100 games of senior League football.

Regarding Douglas, it was logical based solely on Bell's performances since he signed that he was not a competent option to bring in to try and improve the team defensively as he cannot defend one on one. Especially if it was specifically to negate the threat of a player who he played against in the same fixture last season and said player scored 2 of 3 goals! Whether Douglas is good enough defensively, we cannot be sure at this stage but he certainly appears (as did Cunningham) to be levels above Bell who is lucky to still be at the club.

Now the key is consistency and also winning games we are less comfortable in, your season doesnt tend to be determined by how you play on your very best days. We are still down in 10th and 4 points from the play offs with a game extra played and I dont feel like we are genuine contenders while we have such a deficit so we need to put an elusive run of wins together.

We have won 5 from 13, none of which we won by a single goal and maybe slightly less so v QPR but in the games v Preston, Wycombe, Coventry (who all went down to 10 men) and Derby we blew them away. In the other games we have been poor and/or have always felt at arms length from our opposition yet havent been able to ever add further wins and indeed seldom even single points.

Needs to score with much more regularity to start asking a question regarding any sort of value but I cannot believe the improvement, very pleasing.

47 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Nothing will ever take the shine off beating the nobbers three-nil on their own patch?

Fantastic performance and result but not half as enjoyable not being part of a packed end of happy supporters.

Just now, joey_big_nose said:

He wasn't really put under any pressure today. To be fair to Joe he Bark played the other side.

I agree with Joe that Douglas lack of pace and defensive focus will ultimately be an issue for us.

But hey, let's enjoy the win!

Never to the extent that Bell will be a more favourable alternative though!

Brilliant performance and easy win v a dreadful PNE. Think they need a change as things seem to have gone very stagnant there.

Thought Douglas was superb, any notion of playing the useless Bell seemed illogical and Douglas seems a considerable and needed upgrade. Kaminski could have sat in the stands, Nyambe was good on the right with one superb pass in the first half and both centre backs were equally good, Wharton deserves his praise but equally on the back of a poor start to the season, Lenihan deserves praise for his return to form especially guiding the younger Wharton.

The front 3 were quiet for 40 minutes but Gallagher did brilliantly to get Rafferty sent off which changed the game. Great to see Brereton get to 3 goals now and really look like a different player. Rothwell was fairly ineffective but came to life for the second with a superb individual run and assist, Holtby controlled the game and showed realy quality and class and Trybull was much more comfortable deeper. The subs had it very easy with the game as it was when they came on but all did well and great to see Dolan score after great contributions from Elliott and Brereton.

Today more than ever, not being in the ground and instead watching batter Preston only on a stream in an empty stadium did massively take the shine off I have to say. Presume I am not on my own there.

It is very unfair to question Armstrongs attitude at this stage, he was anonymous on Saturday but I dont think that it was him being moody or lazy, and the game before he got 2 goals, top scorer for a side in the bottom half suggests that his performances cant be questioned, and he certainly shouldnt be moved to accommodate a player as average as Gallagher.

I get that there would be a hit to the integrity (similarly with only now introducing extra subs) of the competition but for me that is not a reason not to deny fans from attending as soon as is allowed. This is such a unique situation and fans havent been at grounds for 8 or 9 months, as soon as it is possible and even if it is not widespread across the leagues. We cant have fans especially considering that they will have bought season tickets to be still unncessarily sat at home in spite of being allowed to attend for fear of a slight advantage to be gained dependant on location. If you are in a Tier 3 area, its unfortunate but the emphasis should be getting as many people in stadiums as is allowed as and when that happens. Any competitive advantage will be blunted with proposals to not allow fans to sing anyway.

Regarding whether it would be "worth" Rovers opening as and when they can have 2k fans in, surely there is no choice, I and a couple of thousand others have purchased season tickets that I expected to be honoured as soon as is possible/feasible. Otherwise they shouldnt have released them on sale to begin with as attendances were always going to be reintroduced with restrictions initially.

The thing with Armstrong though is you cant argue with his numbers, the bad games can be accepted when his overall contribution is so vast.

That is the frustration with quite a few players for me, they fit in with this same narrative that we are about to suddenly string wins together and get into the top 6, that the best is yet to come without much evidence of that actually materialising. You look at Brereton and Rothwell as 2 examples, both will be in everyones teams tomorrow, both have got plenty of praise, both have got attributes of being good players, but even now at a point when both have started to establish themselves, neither are contributing enough tangibly to be important attacking players for a team in the top 6. There seems to be an article or a quote about Rothwell every week in the Lancashire Telegraph on how he "knows" that he needs to get goals and assists, or how when he does get one that this can kick start a run, but it never really comes about.

My team would be:

Kaminski

Nyambe Lenihan Wharton Douglas

Holtby Trybull Rothwell

Elliott Armstrong Brereton

Subs: Pears, Carter, Bell, Downing, Buckley, Gallagher, Dolan, Davenport, Chapman

The 2 changes are obvious and they both improve us, Nyambe is a better right back compared to Rankin Costello and Holtby coming in will give us more balance. I hope he doesnt meddle any further and bring in inferior players like Gallagher (despite his goal at the weekend) and Bell. Centre back is a worry with Wharton there, we could do with Ayala back but Preston arent the most prolific team in the league, until the play us usually.

12 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Bell is statistically a much better defender than Barry Douglas. Douglas in fact ranks as one of the Championships worst starting full backs for defensive output. His superior attacking and creative output tips him over the edge in 90% of games, but against Tom Barkhuizen, Douglas will be ran ragged. If Douglas plays, and they put Barky at RW - we'll concede at least two, if not more.

Statistically? Defensive output? I have seen using my own eyes since Bell signed that he is a poor defender, you even said yourself that you arent a big fan, stats dont prove or disprove that, one on one Bell very rarely excels against anyone. He often stands off, he rarely prevents crosses coming in and hes been a weakness in our team since we got promoted.

If Douglas is worse defensively than Bell, or indeed if he individually would cause us to concede at least 2 goals simply based on his own lack of ability to defend against a bog standard player like Barkhuizen/Barky, then he really is an appalling signing. I would like to think that it isnt the case.

My issue with this suggestion is two fold. Firstly, I dont think that having pace necessarily gives a player the upper hand and in Bell's case, it doesnt seem to help him defensively, Downing played a few games last season at left back and invariably did better against quick wingers than Bell even in spite of his lack of pace because he had the intelligence and the positional sense to counteract his own weakness. If a full back is not fit for purpose against a quick but average wide man then he isnt fit for purpose full stop.

Secondly, I totally disagree with making individual selections especially of inferior players to counteract the opposition and based on specific skillsets, its over thinking things, its counterproductive and it goes back to one of Mowbray's historical weaknesses in which he over thinks things and ends up tricking himself. I think it was Oldham at home when Mowbray was laughably bigging up their random right back as a danger, he ended up playing Bell on the left wing in front of Williams and we ended up 2 down at half time before changing it. That doesnt mean that against the divisions best players that I dont respect their qualities but even then, I would suggest more subtle tactical tweaks would make more sense than to play inferior players.

Similarly last year off the back of an impressive win against Brentford, you suggested that we should bring in Williams I think for Downing and should change things up to try and counteract the physicality of Gregory and Vokes. We went unchanged and we won rather than compromising our own skills whilst overthinking of how to target average players. Again against Wigan you suggested dropping Downing because of Jamal Lowe's pace, Mowbray played Downing and Lowe didnt have a sniff.

There is also surely the obvious flaw in your theory too, that Barkhuizen scored 2 and Preston scored 3 last season, who was our left back? Amarii Bell!

14 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Big fan of Barry Douglas, and he did well against Luton Town. Also not a huge fan of Amari'i Bell and wouldn't normally choose him as first choice.

However, for me Tom Barkuizen is going to run BD ragged if we play him. The pace will simply be too much for him. We'll have to sacrifice BD's attacking output for the speed of Amari'i Bell in this one if we don't want to concede 2+ goals.

But Bell cant defend, which totally reverses any benefit that his pace might provide. Douglas had a good game and has a far better calibre than Bell, I cant fathom why you would play an inferior player, intelligence trumps pace every time.

You cant start changing your full backs anytime they come across a pacy winger, its the same as last year when we went to Stoke and you suggested making changes to counter Lee Gregory, or when you suggested dropping Downing v Wigan who had Jamal Lowe, really average players who do not warrant us making specific changes to counter act. If you get into the habit of playing inferior players in fear of players of the standard of Tom Barkhuizen then you know that you are miles off.

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

One year PL, one year top in the Championship. rinse and repeat. 

I could take that as a Slow Build as I am sure that Norwich after paying off debts accrued will reinvest properly when timing is right.

They have reasonably rich owners but nowhere near the wealth of our Billionaires so chose caution and not a PL investment gamble to stay up. It working out fine ... so fat, and a damn sight better than our feck up.

The Jam Today approach when there is actually jam on the table is ok.

I get that, the reason that it didnt sit right with me is because everyone at the club publically accepted relegation before it happened and I refuse to accept that such an attitude was necessary as much as I understand prudence and not taking risks with finances. Even if a team insists on spending absolutely nothing upon promotion, you can still attack the Premier League with a bit more ambition without writing the season off before it starts.

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

I and a few others got a panning for endorsing the Norwich approach in the PL last season.

Guess who is top of the Championship.

Playing Yoyo pays well.

Bournemouth have a very strong squad for the Championship and possibly the best set of attacking forwards. 

They might well go back up, but it still wouldnt justify their own chairman and manager saying publically that they had less than 5% chance of survival and throwing in the towel before a ball was kicked, sapping any hope from a season of Premier League football. They could have given the Premier League a proper go, whether that was by not spending as they did but just having a better attitude or indeed spending shrewdly and prudently on players that wouldnt break the wage structure, in an ideal world they could have stayed up and been 10x better off, but also safe in the knowledge that relegation was something that wouldnt pose any risks.

The problem with endorsing such defeatism is that it assumes that the only other option is to take a massive risk and buy a series of over priced and aging players for massive sums, when there is a happy medium. The money that they have spent this summer on players like Hugill and Dowell hasnt particularly improved them either.

Yeah I certainly wouldnt be watching that back.