roversfan99

I think unless he was lying, the goalposts have been moved in Thursdays meeting. He definitely sounded frustrated, we went from being close to a signing which was the first of "3 or 4" that he aimed to buy to only being able to afford 1. 

8 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Suggested you look at the team in posted in the best team thread. where you have put Armstrong on the left of the front 3 with Dack centre. is this incorrect?

I posted how I would play Dack from the left of the front 3 or in the midfield 3 like his days at Gillingham days where he scored goals and assists. So if Dack plays from the left doesn't mean he is stuck wide but can roam from there and allowing our full back to overlap just like we currently are doing now with our full backs. 

 

why? cos you say so. We dominated at Newcastle and should have beaten them as Bruce even said post match. Plus We lost at Bournemouth but we weren't outclassed by them and deserved at least a point. The formation isn't the reason we lost either game but not taking our chances. But when you look at the formation, its working as you have got Holtby and Rothwell in centre midfield with a holding midfielder in Johnson or Travis or Evans. It allowing us more control of the games and currently working very well. 

I put Armstrong in the team on the left on the assumption that we have to play 433 but we dont hence why my chosen team was 4231. It is for me the best way to favour our 2 best players.

Im guessing that you didnt regularly watch the mighty Gillingham but Dack is obviously a central player based on his time here and his skillset is not as focused on pace as Armstrong. We could use the concepts of not staying wide and full back overlapping (although if that is Bell then we are struggling) with either player wide. I am not expecting Armstrong to hug the touchline but play inside running into the space in behind. 

Where is the team that you posted that you would play?

You get what you deserve in football and ultimately, whilst I am not saying that we should stop playing it, the results/points per game since we started playing it is not very impressive. Until we start picking up regular wins with it the jury will be out. 

46 minutes ago, Ben Frost said:

You can write as many multi-paragraph several hundred word critiques as you want against the players you don't like, but that statement suggests to me that you haven't the faintest idea about the ethos of football in particular or team sports in general. 

Now that those three have gone, Bennett is one of the most important squad members. Not ON the pitch but off it. 

If you don't understand that (you clearly don't because you suggested above that he should be shown the door asap) then I would politely suggest that you stop pretending you know anything about football and concentrate on sudoku or something. 

Putting aside the totally unnecessary patronising manner of your post. I made it quite clear that I appreciate and understand what he provides off the field, but that all of my comments where in relation to how he is on the pitch. I dont think on the field he has a role to play, if he is happy to be solely an off the field help without contributing on the pitch, and indeed we can afford that (assuming that there would be any takers) then by all means keep him.

We do have a lot of younger players but there is more experience within the team than you seem to appreciate or imply. We have just replaced a kid playing his second senior season in league football who left after a loan spell with a player who was the captain of his last club, and who had led said club to promotion from this league before. A massive signing of leadership. Beside him we have Lenihan who is young as you say but clearly has natural leadership and has played over 150 games for us. Then of course we replaced a young loanee goalkeeper (and before that a young keeper of our own) with a player who has played well over 200 games in his career and won titles, albeit we dont know much about his character and there will be an acclimatisation to living in England.

Then we have Johnson in midfield, a vastly experienced senior player who you describe as being "hot and cold" but that is solely based on his footballing performances, not his character. We also have Corry Evans who again is vastly experienced, even if he seems a little less extroverted from the outside. And of course Lewis Holtby who seems to be growing in terms of a main character within our squad. There is quite a bit of real experience there amidst a clutch of players who havent been left behind on the pitch.

13 minutes ago, darrenrover said:

I can't understand what you base that decision on. I've seen nothing from Davenport that even supports a squad place, you know what you're likely to get from Evans.

To be fair, I'd look to move both players on considering the plethora of midfielders and the need to allow further development of our under 23s.

To be fair, I dont think that Evans at this moment needs moving on to accelerate the development of the under 23s. I think he is very close to if not in our best 11 when all are fit and there has to be a balance between experience and youth.

Bennett doesnt have the ability on the ball or the tactical discipline to stop charging around and diving in to play in central midfield. No good pressing if you give away fouls all of the time. People refer to 2 games that he played, the Shrewsbury one which was obviously in League 1 in which Smallwood was just as effective (imagine if he was near our team) and even in League 1 his effectiveness waned to the point that he had spells in 2 other positions before the season was out. The Brentford game was amidst an injury crisis in which we ground out a team as an underdog, and he played as a 10 as he did v Stoke when the onus was on us to create and we fell to a drab 1 nil defeat. He also played in central midfield at Villa Park around that time and put in a performance on par with Mulgrews at home to Boro, totally lost.

I just dont see any place even in the squad for him anymore. Im very glad to see that even Mowbray seems to have realised that a year later than Mulgrew and Smallwood. Even yesterday, Mowbray plumped for Buckley and Davenport which I agreed with. Rankin Costello seems to have taken over the role as right back cover and utility man, I dont think that he is capable in the middle as I mentioned and he certainly isnt good enough going forward

Hes always given his all and has a year left on his contract, I personally think it would be best for all if Bennett could find a home elsewhere, even if it means supplmenting his wages. Hes League 1 standard although maybe someone near the bottom of this League may find some use for him.

3 minutes ago, tomphil said:

I think defensively he's still more solid than Bell but unless it's a crisis i'd let him concentrate on centre back now he's settling in there again.

To be fair I can understand why there is no urgency to dislodge Williams immediately with his performance on Saturday and of course with Ayala getting up to speed.

I would say that I think there is little doubt that Ayala and Lenihan will become our first choice partnership though. My thought process was that although Williams is better at centre back for sure than at left back, the difference is far less than between Ayala and Bells respective abilities.

Ideally, although seemingly very unlikely now, we sign a left back to come in for the weekend, Williams keeps his place for now and we take things from there. Keep another clean sheet and he keeps his place, get beat or concede a couple and maybe Ayala comes in v Cardiff to deal with Kieffer Moore.

Just now, Vilesinner said:

Yes, completely insane. Williams is terrible at fullback. Bell has pace which is so so important. But hopefully we do find a replacement for him.

Definitely would play Nyambe.

Its not very important if it doesnt help either defensively or going forward, pace alone is of little use. Williams is better defensively one on one and a better crosser. And he himself is not up to the standard that we need as a left back. Just the lesser of two evils.

3 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Williams won't play left back unless he's had a mass change of heart so i don't know why it keeps getting suggested. As daft as the Mulgrew for left back, Midfield etc. Not happening especially after the managers comments about Bell. 

Wouldn't change a think really there shouldn't be a need injuries aside after that win. Tony will need to be on the sleeping tabs this week over this one.

3-3 draw.

It is only my suggestion rather than what I think would happen. I feel that Williams is average but as a left back is better than Bell, and whilst he would prefer to play centre back, at a time when we have 2 very good centre backs and no competent left backs, id like to think that Williams wouldnt refuse to play there.

Derby away next week might seem a tough game when the fixtures come out but theres no reason why we shouldnt go there targeting a win. 2 losses for them so far at home to Reading and at Luton, and seemingly problems at both sides of the pitch. They signed Kamil Jozwiak who we have been linked with and who set up a goal before going off with a knock, as did Jack Marriott who went off after scoring his first goal in a while.

Would like to see a new LB in this week but based on Mowbrays comments it seems we are having a re think in terms of transfers so assuming we dont add, I would go:

Kaminski

Nyambe Lenihan Ayala Williams

Rothwell Johnson Holtby

Dolan Armstrong Brereton

Subs: Eastham, Rankin Costello, Wharton, Davenport, Buckley, Chapman, Gallagher

2 changes, both at full back where Nyambe comes back in. Also Bell is a weakness and Williams is a better defender, and that in turn allows Ayala to come in.

Hopefully we can pick up where we left off.

1 minute ago, DeeCee said:

Too many variants but wouldn't have Williams in the starting line up

Of course I think left back is top priority in the transfer market so that would change. As it stands, Williams is a better option than Bell.

If everyone was fit, what does everyone think would be our best starting line up, and what do people think Mowbray would consider his best team? Not factoring in further arrivals.

I would say mine would probably be this below:

Kaminski

Nyambe Lenihan Ayala Williams

Travis Holtby

Dolan Dack Rothwell

Armstrong

If it has to be 4-3-3, I would probably say:

Kaminski

Nyambe Lenihan Ayala Williams

Travis Evans Holtby

Dolan Dack Armstrong

In easier games, I would go Rothwell for Evans there and move Travis inside, and also it is early days for Dolan, maybe Brereton, Chapman or Rothwell could eye that place.

I think Mowbrays would be the above with Bell, Johnson and Gallagher for Williams, Evans and Dolan.

7 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

I think quite a few teams will be looking at him if we let his contract slide. 

In fairness, he said he was doing 'ok'. He obviously doesn't really rate him or he wouldn't have brought Cunningham in. 

I dont think hes done anything at this moment to warrant anyone else taking a look, but it makes sense to try and get him signed

Regarding Bell, I just wonder if he thinks (wrongly IMO) that he has improved, that he is more suited to our current style (with no attacking threat id suggest not) or indeed with the players lost since Cunningham have left bigger weaknesses than Bell. (again I wouldnt agree)

He will forever have a big doubt over his place over him (or should) until he starts scoring goals or offering a goal threat.

1 hour ago, S8 & Blue said:

I could see Dack being effective anywhere in the front 3, but we need to reserve the central berth for Arma.

Worth a go at least, if we aren’t getting the best out of both of them when he returns then we may have to think again.

It definitely might take some trial and error but the potential reward to get 2 goalscorers and our 2 best players working in tandem would be huge.

I do think though that Dack is the least capable of playing from anywhere but a central role. If 4-3-3 is very much a constant, I would have to put Armstrong from the left and Dack central. Because Dack is unlikely to remain right up front, there would be a natural avenue for Armstrong to run inside and get goals when Dack gets involved perhaps with his back to goal. When Armstrong played wide in the 4-2-3-1, it was essentially playing with a second striker instead of a midfielder, and the way we played was rigid so it meant that there was far more responsibility defensively for him and also far more necessity for him to stay wide. The way we are currently playing I think would mean that he would be able to go central and link with Dack far more often, he would have that third central midfielder to help in terms of covering the full back, and we could perhaps have a wider player ie Dolan, Chapman or Brereton asked to stay wider on the other side.

If that did happen, it wouldnt necessary be side-lining Dack. I bet he would enjoy having Dack working with him.

I do also have misgivings about Dack as a false 9 to be honest, so I would potentially lead towards the 4-2-3-1 with Armstrong up front, but of course aligned with our current high press and developing style.

I think that if you asked Mowbray now what his team would be, everyone fully fit, and its a guess of course, I think it would be Armstrong to the left, Dack down the middle, Gallagher right.

1 minute ago, JoeH said:

at some point you’re allowed to permit yourself the opportunity to actually enjoy a player at the club, get perhaps over-excited about a youngster and get your hopes up.

It’s not a criminal offence to enjoy these things. Allow yourself the freedom to be wrong in the future and enjoy a clearly exciting-to-watch player whilst we can?

In two years if Dolan didn’t do as well as hoped or as expected, nobody’s going to shoot you. Sometimes you’ll find it’s more fun for yourself if you allow the “overindulgence” of getting aboard the hype train.

I am very much excited as to his start at the club and also very much enjoyed his performance yesterday, make no mistake.

It is a difficult conundrum regarding either signing 1 for a fee or 2 or 3 on loan. 

Firstly, I definitely think that the goalposts have changed since Thursday when Mowbray said he had a meeting. Maybe it is partially down to the Ayala deal. We have gone from wanting 3 or 4 and being close to a left back on Thursday morning, to now seemingly be contemplating our next step in regards to how to use the budget on seemingly less players.

We also have to consider where we think we are and how far away we could be. In terms of short term v long term, our best chance might come this season because I cannot see Armstrong or Dack being here next season if we dont go up, and then there is a lot of work to do with Brereton, Gallagher etc obviously not capable of scoring regularly. I am not convinced that we are THAT close to the top 6 however.

It also depends on how much flexibility/compromise there is there. Left back is far and away the weakest position for us but we also cannot have a season whereby Fisher could at any minute be needed because he is nowhere near up to it. If we could sign a permanent left back with the majority of our remaining budget and get a cheap experienced keeper on a free then that would be ideal. I also think we need a central midfielder and another attacker who can play wide, but not as critically. 

We also need to put some emphasis on longer term planning, we tend to lack proactivity regarding contracts. As touched upon, our main 2 players who are likely to generate transfer interest are both here until 2022, I dont think either will be here next season if we dont go up. I would be surprised if either will sign a new deal at the moment either. Nyambe is the obvious elephant in the room, the tribunal fee is a bit of a consolation if the worst case scenario unfolds although I dont think that any Premier League team would be interested, although that might change after another season. We have to prioritise that contract. Rankin Costello is less important but I dont think any other teams will be looking at him, I doubt he is on much money so it makes sense to give him a new deal, even if hes seen as a versatile squad player at the moment. I would be happy to give Holtby another year, whereas with Evans and Johnson, theres less urgency, probably 2 big earners, not 100% convinced for different reasons which to give a new deal to but probably not both so let that run for the time being. Mulgrew and Bennett, 100% released.

My main worry is that Mowbray doesnt appreciate quite how bad Bell is. He did publically question him last year for his consistency (I think he has been consistently shite to be fair to him) and obviously signed Cunningham which didnt work out for long due to injury, then even put Downing there. But he said yesterday that he is doing well, and that it isnt the priority. Looking at what may have changed, we play a different way and there is a myth that Bell is a better attacking full back, which he isnt. And he was messing around with the left back area at a time when we had a keeper and a centre back on loan, the 2 main priorities he had in his mind to spend on this summer, and also at a time when Downing was here and Travis was fit.

If Mowbray had said when bringing in the 4-3-3 that it was a temporary adjustment and that we would revert back 4-2-3-1 once Dack returns I suspect the rhetoric would be very different.

As it is, he hasnt said if he sees this as our permanent formation, or a temporary one in Dacks absence, so it is difficult to try and second guess him and thus the only thing left to do is put the problem off, downplay his importance and go off on a tangent implying that merely debating what we do when our best player returns is trying to rush him back and even making out that he could be a shell of a player or that we are about to sell him anyway!

14 minutes ago, MarkBRFC said:

I love how its so flippant like its that easy.

Could name you plenty of players that we have sold over the years for big money, not once have we been a better side the year after.

Absolutely. The problem is too, our goals are concentrated in to one player at the moment, or when Dack returns, it will be 2. Remove them and it is perhaps then when we really curse the signings of Brereton and Gallagher unles they start contributing at that point. 

It is very rare that a team selling their star player will not pocket at least a decent chunk of the money too. Plus if you are signing 2 or 3, you have the additional wages to factor in and the money soon starts to vanish.

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

So you want to move the club best striker in Armstrong wide in front 3 when he already scored 4 goals from the 9 position. Why would anyone do that? 

I wouldn't be changing formation either. This 4-3-3 formation is working and the performances are very good this season. Holtby is in form and Rothwell has produce from the role. 

I would use Dack from the left of the 3 man forward line with Armstrong centre and Dolan right. Plus all this Dack is all back on when he will be back which won't be the next few weeks so why we are so concern about how we get Dack in the team at the point is mooted. Plus Dack is going to need a few under 23''s games aswell, so you are looking at November time before he is available for 1st team selection. We should be performing on players available and get results. If the front 3 keep playing well why would Mowbray drop any of them? 

on the subject of new contract, working for a manager who has develop him and is now playing him in his favour role of striker should count for something, it probably doesn't for most players in current football

 

we have no idea the type of player he will be when he back. He had a set back so I wouldn't be relying on him pre Christmas time. 

I never said that I would play Armstrong wide left in a 3.

I think that Mowbray will put Dack back in, he has regularly mentioned his importance during his absence and you have clearly forgotten quite how good he is. 24 goals in 62 starts at this level. When Mowbray inevitably does put him back in, you will totally agree with the idea anyway!

Theres no way that Dack can play wide either. Armstrong, Dack, Rothwell, Dolan, Rankin Costello, Brereton, Gallagher, Chapman, even Holtby, the most important 2 out of all of them are the first 2, the 2 are the goal scorers that can set us apart. The thing Mowbray needs to do is build the team to ensure that both of them

How that happens, I am still unsure. Does it come within the 4-3-3, and if so, how? The 2 options would be Armstrong coming in from the left to the centre with Dack as a false 9, the second option would be Dack and Holtby in front of a sitter, Armstrong still central. I am very skeptical about both of those options. 

Maybe 4-2-3-1? That is beneficial because Armstrong can play as a striker and Dack in his favourite position. We can still play similar tactics, high press, possession based etc, but we have a secondary big goal threat, and also Armstrong has a better source of creativity in Dack. Still scope for Rothwell, Dolan etc from the 2 wider roles, maybe the biggest problem would be Holtby although why couldnt he play in a 2 with a sitter, maybe Evans until Travis returns? Really all that has happened is that the shape of the central three has been tweaked.

I also think that you are overplaying the success of the 4-3-3. We have won one and lost one in both League and Cup, having not picked up many points last year with it. Not saying that we shouldnt continue with it for the time being but the importance of Dack outweighs the importance and success of this formation. We have to maybe have a bit of trial and error but the potential rewards should we get Dack and Armstrong firing together are enormous.

I have never suggested that we need to rush Dack back, when he will be back, but it is likely that he will return this season at some point. When it suited your agenda, he was the player with the mystery (and seemingly fictional) £10m bid over him, why would anyone bid for a player who is not going to play any time soon to the point that his return shouldnt even be considered?!

You are incapable of viewing Armstrongs position without blue and white glasses on. He is a player who's stock is rising and is at a club that has yet to demonstrate the ability to push for promotion. If he has any ambition, he will be working towards becoming a Premier League player and challenging himself, and of course enjoying the added wealth that he will bring. He would be crazy to agree to tie away potentially his key years and weaken any negotiating position should a bigger club come in for him, solely on the notion that he is been promised to play in his favourite position. If we are outside the play offs and a Premier League offered for him in January, you would be deluded to think that he wouldnt want to go.

Just now, briansol said:

It is very hard to judge whether an U23 player is ready, especially in defensive positions where the physical aspect is such different. Attacking players is a bit easier because skill and pace translates easier. It was clear before last year that Buckely had outgrewn U23 when dominating every match. JRC, Butterworth were similar clear options that was ready for next step. Vale showed also good signs. 

On the other hand, Magloire had it to easy in the U23 because he was stronger and faster then everybody. U23 football is also quite different from Championship because it's very techinal, played to feet and little physical combat for a centre-back. Think it was a massive shock for Magloire when he faced Joe Garner and Steven Fletcher who are clever operators.

I like Lewis Thompson, great engine and can deliver a cross. He never plays badly, but not a standout performer either. I see more potential in Dan Pike on right back, he's a few years younger, very mature, great decision making both defensivly and offensively. 

I also think attacking players can be dipped in and out, sub appearances, cameos, or even if they start they can be subbed off with little harm done if its not working. You dont tend to change the defence really unless there is an injury.

Very true on Magloire. There are seemingly still doubts over Wharton with 80 odd appearances under his belt.

4 hours ago, JoeH said:

And Tyrhys Dolan had only played Under 18’s football but he’s set the world on fire and nobody can deny his ability and potential.

Lewis Thompson would definitely do a better job than Bell for me.

As I said, I have never seen Thompson so I havent got a clue, my comments where more about the troubles we have had at left back yet hes never made a squad, even with 9 subs, so I dont think hes close.

Kids football is a difficult benchmark though, so far away from first team level. It doesnt mean that young players cant break through, obviously they do, but ultimately impressing at under 23 level doesnt mean that you are good enough for first team football. I bet Bell would hold his own with the kids. But my comments were about how close/far away Thompson must be in Mowbrays mind, not mine.

I also think some of the comparisons and predictions for Dolan, big money moves to Europe, comparisons to Eze and Bellingham are absolutely crazy after 1 League start, as good as it was. Im wary that people may be getting carried away which is fine now but when he hits an inevitable dip in form at that age, I hope theres not a similar overreaction. 

@J*B where did mid November come from? Mowbray refused to put a date on it during his interview.

Playing on the side of a front 3 carries far less responsibility and would be easier for a striker like Armstrong to play than out wide in a 4231 which needs more tracking back. Weve seen albeit from a player who cant score goals that with Brereton. But Armstrong undoubtedly is best down the middle. Theyve never been played in a system whereby they could both thrive in tandem, but its not as if Dack is a big brute, hes a very technically gifted player who could compliment Armstrong within a more technical and pressing based set up.

That being said, it takes a short memory to not be desperate to get Dack back into the side when fit. There is no reason why we cant play both as a 9 and 10 whilst still pressing high and ultimately Dack would be brilliant in terms of playing Armstrong in. Either way, we have to try and fit them both in because with one consistent goalscorer proven over his 18 months into the Championship, and another who has developed into one in 2020, having two regular goalscorers gives us a massive leg up over most teams in this division. When we have had them together in the past it has always been with Graham in a far more rigid style.

The rest of our attacking players, Rothwell, Dolan, Rankin Costello, Chapman, Brereton, even Gallagher, theres plenty of pace and promise there but im not sure how much substance over the course of a season. Even if one of Armstrong or Dack would be slightly compromised by having them both together positionally, they would still be far more of a goal threat than any of the above players.

27 minutes ago, Wood26 said:

I can’t see a Prem league side buying him and playing him down middle as their main striker. Much to our benefit.

Theres no way that if a Premier League club failed to promise him regular football as a number 9, that it would overrule the benefits to him of playing at the highest level and a massive pay rise.

1 minute ago, Exiled_Rover said:

I think the problem you've got with Armstrong is he's a L1 wide player. He doesn't have the footballing brain to play there. Conversely he's a very good Championship 9.

Talk of him 'dovetailing' with Dack doesn't fly as Dack isn't mobile enough to play in a front 3 - you'd have to shift back to the 4-2-3-1 formation, except our CMs aren't good enough to play that. 

We cant justify leaving out Dack, such a regular source of goals and such a catalyst to us. Him and Armstrong are so far ahead of all of our remaining attackers in that they are regular sources of goals. We have to make it work.

The 4-2-3-1 wouldnt have to be as rigid and direct as we played when Graham was in the side. We could still have similar flexibility and high pressing as we do now but a secondary potent goal threat added.