No. Because it isn't really working. We didn't get near promotion with the new style. And it's a myth as shown by a ton of teams in the Premiership and the Championship that it is essential for success. It's one of many factors but go ahead and ignore that. Money, better scouting and better coaching all factor into it as well. Also using these teams as an example, especially Brentford, we get none of the basics right that they do in terms of recruitment. Let's compare ourselves with Millwall and PNE two teams which have smaller budgets then us but finished ahead of us. They didn't finish ahead of us because they play possesison football but because they did the basics right. Also this whole possession football is better to watch stuff is horse manure. Utter tripe. Tell that to the blood and thunder of Hughes, or the hit on the break of Leicester's title win or Big Sam or Dyche getting unfashionable teams with few resources competing at the top end of the table. Possession football like anything else from European scouting to youth development is a means to an end. The end is being a successful football club. You take whatever means you can to get to the end. When the means becomes the goal then you are going to fail.

You are missing the point. We didn't sign Bauer therefore he is just a basic limited defender. Had we signed him he would have been an astute addition and an excellent defender. It all depends on what the club do as to how players are perceived in certain quarters...

Yes. Am doing said criteria with a number of candidates (will post results later today/tomorrow) but Ben doesn't come out well. The cost criteria alone boosts his score highly. Like you say, hopefully he will come good but it's a faint hope imo

Have to say centre halves, ball playing or not, don't really feature in my endless fantasies Tyrone...

I think there are 3 factors: 1) ability, or lack thereof. 2) impact on the club. What was their role and influence? 3) Financial cost. Depending on which sort of criteria is used then you would get a different result. Of course if you scored each bad signing out of 5 (or 10) for each category and got a cumulative score then you could find out the worst player ever which may be a bit different. For example superstar defender Myles would get a 5 or 10 for lack of ability (depending on system) but cost and impact on the club would probably score pretty low. Davies would score pretty highly on waste of money and level of ability (at Rovers) but less so on impact as we had a ton of other forwards both good and bad. Very few players score highly in all three. In fact the only one I can think of is a former captain on an obscene wage on a lengthy contract who moved round the pitch like a octogenarian with a torn hamstring. To say games passed him by was an understatement and really set the culture of entitled mercenaries in our championship forray. Step forward worst player ever - Danny Murphy

Great post. What makes this all the more galling a s we are producing quality youth. Raya, Nayambe, Lenihen and Travis are all solid championship players, and the current crop, whilst early days, also look rather talented. In light of this type of output in terms of quality we really should be having a solid squad as a fair bit of work has been done already. Am sure PNE would love to produce the quality of youth we do on a regular basis. It also shows the myth of the slow build as a fair number of the older players won't be around for us in a slow build.

That for me was the biggest thing. For a good player to go to your rivals who you see yourselves on a par to (higher one season, lower the next) in the kind of deal you could do. If that player was any good we would be steaming/gutted. That they weren't suggests they had reservations. Put it this way imagine Tosin went on loan to Bristol City or PNE next season. We would be gutted to have missed out and there's be a lot of outrage. That there was none of that from Wigan was a bit of an alarm bell. That said I think his form probably has been worst for us. Not that that's any consolation as keepers should be improving not regressing. So he's been either ok or poor the last few seasons, not someone who'd top my list of keepers for next year on that basis!

Yes. If the old manager isn't good enough, and goes because he has gone stale rather than because he is head hunted etc., then it seems really odd to appoint someone who was a part of that staleness. You'd think that as assistant manager he had a fair bit to do with the rut that they got themselves into. So if the manager needs changing, why put someone who had a key role in the problems in charge? Madness. Poor appointment imo.

I think footballers have been immune to reprecussions from their actions far too long, way back from before covid. They know they are too important to clubs and so can do what they like. Derby last season was a prime example of this. So it's no surprise footballers aren't behaving with covid. That's the monster we have created. The problem is rather than "just" (for want of a better word) a few people harmed by their actions with covid it gives the opportunity for far more people to be effected by their bad behaviour. Personally don't think closing the league is right - it would kill the game and livelihoods - but surely players should be banned and fined significant amounts (for them) to deter such action. Let's get footballers properly accountable again, and if nothing else that would be one positive of a terrible 2020.

That's not true. There's no arguably about it, Walton must have been the worst keeper in the league. He was beyond terrible. Absymal. Words struggle to define how bad he was.

If anyone thinks Walton and Williams are as good as Raya and Bauer I want some of whatever they are having! Williams at centre back only looks decent in comparison to his shambles at left back. He is probable top league 1, bottom 6 championship standard at centre back. Whilst not doing any of the terrible stuff he does at lb he doesn't do much good. And as for Walton? More errors since lockdown than Raya in an entire season, and that's not counting any of the pre Christmas clangers. Nor does he produce worldie saves like Raya. No way is he remotely near Raya's class or ability. Which isn't bigging up Raya but saying how poor Walton is.

Of course we need a centre mid. Outside of Travis our choices are - an aging has been who plays well one in five and atrociously the rest, can only last 60 minutes at best, and is comfortably the wrong side of 30. - an absolute sick note who can get injured from a nasty stare, who only plays well when a new contract is needed and has often replicated the invisible Man with his performances. - an unproven 20 odd year old who has missed much of the last 2 years with injury. Regardless of what that says about him being a sicknote it can't have helped his development at a key age. Downing may or may not also sign but again at 35 (36?) is not the long term solution and has to cover a myriad of other positions too. So yes we need a midfielder. Problem is we need a keeper and defenders more. The midfield options are poor but at least there are people who can play there. Whereas we literally have no keepers (although there were question marks over whether we ever did this season!) and we have very few defensive options. So much as we need a centre mid the needs defensively, especially a keeper, is an even greater priority. As an aside it shows what a load of bull this whole slow build is that we need so many players three seasons in. Worryingly an argument can be made for.needing a striker in much the same way as a centre mid. What an absolute balls up of the last year or two for us to need so many players!

Can't really add to this really. Had he been used better in the championship as a squad player I think people would remember him more fondly.

Saw the lad break onto the scene at Carlisle who raved about him. Had to say from what I saw he looked promising but nowhere near our level. Turns out I was wrong on both counts. Admittedly a lot of that is down to Venkys damage to the club, but a lot of that is also credit to Graham who made him a good championship level striker. Some of his play for us was really intelligent and he always looked and played like a "proper" striker. He held the ball up and brought players into the game and was a focal point for our attacks. For the majority of his time with us he played well and was crucial in us getting promoted- so thanks for the quality and consistency Danny! This season age may be catching up with him but given some of the dollopers we have played up front I can't help but think we didn't give him a fair crack at the whip and he would have offered more. Perhaps enough to make those extra few points up... Thing is despite knowing his age we haven't really replaced him £12 million on, albeit Armstrong has moved central which has lessened the blow somewhat. Given we need to replace him and being lumbered with two expensive donkeys its no surprise he has been let go. We need all the finance we can to replace him and address the other squad issues. All in all during Venkys reign of terror one of the more positive memories and one of the crown jewels of our promotion season. I'll remember him positively which I can't say of too many players of late.

Agree with this. To not have Brad on the list would be daft as he was immense for us for many years and a model pro. Don't begrudge him leaving for financial difficulties or dislike of Ince as he didn't move prior to this and gave many years good service. The second tier list is a more interesting conundrum. What would any modern player have to do to get it? Unlikely to be trophys anytime soon or good players giving us lengthy service. Hughes would perhaps get on the second list for me albeit more for his management of us. Think had Berg done better as a manager he would have been definite on the list - involved in both our successful periods as a player, and a decent run as manager may have been enough to make him a legend rather than soured his legacy.

Having recently got back in touch with a friend who is a Rovers fan but not on here i was shocked by how he and his other Rovers mates like TM. Decent football being cited as one thing, honest man of integrity another. Mind you they were also grateful for Venkys support the last few years! I do wonder if we generally lost those fans who are critical/demand higher standards from the Venkys fiasco. The Facebook group and my conversation the other day seem to bare this out.

That Rev is the key question. Anyone decent and TM has to pack his bags. If they don't- and the last 3 incumbents don't make me confident that they do - then we are royally stuffed.

I think 3 years and it always being a problem suggests the common denominator is with the manager. You are criticising our previous keeper after the season that Walton has had??? Don't get me wrong I think Raya had his faults but Walton has proved Raya is 10 times the goalkeeper Walton is. That's not necessarily a statement on Raya's quality but Walton. Seems odd for you to lament our previous keeper when the current one has proved infinitely worse. That said I agree a more solid defence helps. Don't disagree with any of this. Sounds like a good shout. I'd keep Downing if we can afford him but there are some much more pressing needs.

Luton, Barnsley, Huddersfield, Stoke and Boro all stayed up. What they all have in common is they changed their manager. Four of them went for ones with recent success (unsure on the Barnsley chap). Don't get me wrong I thought Wigan and Charlton were unfortunate to go down, so I am not saying that a new manager is the only factor by a long shot. Luton were massively helped out by playing us last and a couple of the teams had a lot of quality in the squads. But a few of these teams did look dead and buried until they changed the manager and that shows the impact that the right man can have. It shows the importance of a new broom and fresh ideas and not letting things go stale. That said as far as I am aware none of these clubs were limited to a single agency when appointing managers and have owners who at least vaguely know what they are doing/care, so the comparison isn't perfect.

Thing is we've struggled with this for 3 years now. It was a challenge even in league 1. We can't break teams down but that's not at all just down to Dack's absence as the last 2 and a half seasons prior to his injury have shown.

Even then I feel it would take Venkys a few months to notice...

There are a few phrases in here when you are defending TM that expose his weaknesses. Needing the majority of a back line suggests TM has messed up his recruitment and isn't building at all. Walton being listed amongst the likes of Fettis etc as a defence indicates how bad he must be to need this to garner a positive comparison. (And I'd say he is just as bad as those listed but either way damning with faint praise.) Plenty of room for improvement - the squad is either massively underperforming or we have brought badly. Either way it doesn't reflect well on the manager. See even when putting the case forward as to why he is a decent manager it highlights his deficiencies. That said I spoke to a couple of Rovers mates who aren't on here who are both pro TM "our football is much better to watch," and Venkys (?!?!) "they haven't let us go into administration" so I do think the majority of the fan base is still supportive of him and the current set up.

They're letting off fireworks round our way celebrating Leeds promotion. Perhaps I can return the favour in 12 months when Leeds drop back down. Play offs very hard to predict. Brentford are on a downer. Fulham don't have the manager for me. And Cardiff and Swansea are pretty average sides (heck we beat Cardiff recently which shows they aren't all that...) Very hard to call. And all teams will feel they have a decent shout of doing it - making it more frustrating that we aren't one of those teams...

That's them knowing the plan? My word, them not knowing it is going to be mighty scary. I'm not exactly senior in management (in my field), however I'm fairly confident that it's management 101 that when your employees/subordinates are arsing it up you say or do something...

Yeah. I mean I couldn't help but look at the Swansea and Cardiff games thinking that could have been us. It's eating me up a bit. TM as you say doesn't seem bothered by how badly we are doing whatsoever. Not answering to someone in any job is a guarantee of problems occurring and it's one of the many reasons why Venkys are still killing the club. The other thing that annoys me about it, is knowing he has the job till kingdom come, he isn't using that to his advantage at all. Most managers have to scrap the long term vision for more immediate or at least medium term results. TM doesn't and yet we still seem no further forward then when we first came up squad wise. We need the best part of a back line. Our striking options are generally poor. We've a number of aging players. There doesn't seem any building whatsoever.