25 minutes ago, Mercer said:

If I was reviewing Broughton's performance it would be no more than a 2 out of 10.

Think football is full of bullsh1tters and sadly, I think Broughton and JDT have added to the numbers.

Wow. Just wow.

I agree there are bullsh1tters in football, but how you can argue with a straight face that GB and JDT are amongst them is impressively poor judgment & is just peddling a narrative that everything at the club is rotten.

10 hours ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

The next four games present a massive opportunity. Rotherham, Bristol City, Blackpool and Wigan back to back is as kind a run as you get you're going to get in this league. 

 

Rovers being Rovers, we can't be counting our chickens too early. But if we have realistic play off aspirations, we should really be looking to pick up a good points return, hopefully starting on Saturday. 

The Blackpool game's been postponed to make way for the FA Cup tie, which is also an important & v winnable game but nonetheless offers a bit of a welcome distraction to what will otherwise be a bit of a long slog of pressure-filled league matches.

2 hours ago, broadsword said:

Honestly lads, take it from me, the aggro just isn't worth it.

Yesterday I had terrible neck ache, my jaw was killing me and my sinuses too. Look what happened, I got myself into a silly argument by venting. I should've just accepted that other people saw it differently, said thank you very much and got on with my day.

Acceptance is the key word. Accepting is not the same as liking or surrendering to. I accept that people have different views, I accept that Burnley rammed us, I've even come close to accepting (and it certainly doesn't mean I think they're ok) that venkys own us right now. Without accepting the things that you can't do anything about, your mental health suffers.

We've all just come through this pandemic, some of us have had a very hard time, there's a cost of living crisis going on. We should all be looking out for each other if anything.

I wish you all (and I do mean all, whether we see eye to eye or not) a great day, and a happy new year. Look after yourselves, and try to look out for people around you who may be suffering but don't want to put their hands up. If you're going through hell, I feel for you more than you know and I wish you strength in digging things out tough. Take it easy guys

 

 

 

 

Great post. It would be better if we could all do this down the dog & duck over a pint, a game of darts and a laugh, but alas that's not possible in most cases so we're stuck with forums that, whilst useful, aren't the best way for debating the things that we're all passionate about, which can often get the better of us all.

I hope engaging with me yesterday didn't make things any worse for you and that you feel right as rain soon. 👍 I guess a decent transfer window will help, here's hoping!! 🤞

10 hours ago, Upside Down said:

Believe it or not, not every post on this forum is addressed to you personally. 

And you are accusing others of doing exactly what you are doing yourself. Projection.

Forgive me if your post wasn't directed at me but at someone else (Eddie?). It did refer to the issues I've been raising and did follow on chronologically from what I'd just posted, and I appreciated I've been a bit outspoken on this thread the last few pages.

Perhaps quote the post(s) or poster(s) that you're responding to in future like you did above, then it can avoid further misunderstandings. 👍

1 hour ago, Upside Down said:

For the last fucking time, nobody is complaining about our league position. 

The reason for mine and many others discontent is the absolutely unacceptable performances we have put in against many teams this year, not least in THREE local derbies, and the outright dismissal of any promotion aspirations despite us being 3rd in the league. This last point is what has really grated me.

If we'd have played with some bollocks and tried something other than the suicidal passing the ball around our own box we may have been able to scrape a few more points from these games and be looking at the top two instead of the rest of the pack that are rapidly catching us up.

If you are brushing off the games against Wigan, Burnley and Preston as 'just a couple of bad performances' then I question how much of a fan you really are. I demand nothing less than total commitment from everything and everybody associated with the club when it comes to these fixtures. 

Here we go again, don't read and reply with civility, instead just play the man not the ball and resort to swearing back at me and questioning my support of the club despite what I said in my previous post about my background as a season ticket holder for over 35 years.

Bang out of order on both counts.

You've no idea who I am and I dont dare to presume who you are. I see you only joined this forum in Nov 2021, does that give me the right to question your entitlement to comment or your commitment?? 

All managers publicly downplay their prospects of success. "We're just taking it one game at a time", "we're looking no further ahead than to the next match" etc. are common phrases from managers. Managers set internal targets which stay internal, whilst publicly they say very different things. Much like when managers give nothing away about transfer targets to fans & the media. Is that so hard to understand?

All I'm seeking to do is bring some objectivity to the debate, and put my alternative point of view to that of the critics on here that is wider in scope than just a handful of poor performances & supported by the stats, be that league position, squad strength & demographics, financial limitations, new backroom structure etc. 

1 hour ago, AllRoverAsia said:

A win produces a good, great, excellent win comment and praise for any good standout goals, moves or players.

A loss produces micro analysis of every facet of what happened, why and what can be done to fix it.

That's actually normal for human activity.

What grates is the type of poster who almost every fecking post criticizes those who dare to criticize.

Well it may just be I don't give a flying feck what they say.

 

If criticism is due then fair enough, as it was following those performances mentioned, but let it be levelled fairly alongside of praise when that's also due and not just ignore the achievements that have come in between those failures and which, combined, see us in a far better position now than any of us anticipated in the summer.

On a final note, it's a shame that you don't give a feck what other people think if it's different to you. It's kind of what message boards are for, to debate and discuss & potentially enlighten. Without constructive criticism of opposing points of view, forums just become echo chambers. I've never once questioned another fan's right to think or say what they do about the club, the team or the management; nor have I resorted to name calling or the bare dismissal of opposing views.

I've just said that I don't understand the bleak view that some have of this season overall & JDT in particular.

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

When we do win, there is seldom any strong criticism really though over the entertainment value, even if it is commented on as a general point regarding the match.

That's another thing really, the traffic on here is far greater after a defeat or poor performance than after a win. That grates me too, though I have it on good authority from other posters who scrape the barrels of other club's forums that it's the same for all clubs, so I'll let that one slide... 😉

4 minutes ago, SuperBrfc said:

Atko, you seem to be doing what you are accusing others of doing, only from the other side of the fence. It seems as though you are glossing over any negatives, any concerns or worries about results, performances and JDT by simply citing "we are third" and implying that anybody who is complaining is being unreasonable or performing gymnastics.

Correct me if I'm wrong, or speaking out of turn (that's not my intention), but I have noticed you say "I didn't see the game" a few times. Is it possible, therefore, that you haven't truly experienced a few of the horror shows for yourself to appreciate how bad those games were, thus making it easier to brush those aside as being 'not that bad' based on the overall league position?

We've had a number of utterly abysmal, dire performances and results so far this season. That's not hyperbole, it's there for everybody to see. It's not just the Burnley and Preston defeats either, there have been a whole host of them. Same mistakes being repeated again and again, same abject defeats and the manager trotting out "young side" and "project" after almost all of them. That's where the concerns and complaints come from, as the signs are there of things going totally haywire at some point, unless something is done to address those issues.

To bring those concerns up isn't baffling, despite being in third, because the cracks can't be covered up forever. Heck, JDT himself is preparing the fans for a potential slide down the table by saying "we aren't expected to go up". Does that not tell you something about what third place means to him right now? It appears to mean little to him, but to his defenders it means everything.

Broughton also got his weasel like "Farke was given time" rhetoric out early doors and seems to have done a job on you, Chaddy and a few others by the sounds of it.

The first thing he said when he arrived was that for Rovers to go up we would have to overachieve, and here you are saying we are overperforming, and seemingly using that to gloss over the 'negatives'.

I noticed you say something about not putting "unnecessary pressure" on the team the other day when somebody called the Cardiff game a must win game. Bless the little lambs, we can't be putting any pressure on them, can we? That's exactly the sort of attitude that has reduced the club to what it is today. "No pressure lads", "It's alright lads, we go again next week". The holiday club mentality. Not blaming you for that, obviously, but that's the effect 12 years of Venky ownership has had.

I just can't understand the brushing aside of the worrying aspects as if those who bring them up are just being doom merchants and will never be happy. They are valid concerns to bring up. The football has been shit in the main, to be honest.

As for bringing up Jack Walker's appointments to defend JDT. Seriously? For me, he cannot be mentioned in the same breath as these tossers appointing somebody they've likely never heard of before. Let's not forget how far standards have fallen at the club under this lot. We are not a normal club and haven't been since before November 2010.

I just hope this isn't another manager who the fans will protect at all costs. We had it with Mowbray, now JDT is heading that way too. The pair of them aren't bigger than the football club and you may recall that our very best managers didn't get this type of loyal treatment. I find THAT baffling, personally.

That doesn't mean I want JDT to fail. Obviously, I want him to take us up and I'm pleased with how the table looks right now. It's just that I don't agree with the way that anybody who says anything against JDT is jumped upon and labelled with all sorts of nonsense.

@Eddie Entitled? Give over. That's PR spin that the club would be delighted to see put out there as it puts the blame on the fans and shields the real culprits. The clueless at the top that have no ambition and will for the club to succeed.

Thanks for the reasoned & well considered post, I appreciate it much more than the "weird behaviour", "bizarre" & "prioner of war / Stockholm syndrome" comments seen from others.

For the record, someone else accused me of performing mental gymnastics, so I was responding to that. It was also someone else brought Jack into the conversation & I was responding to that too. Jack Walker is a hero to anyone who has any passion for our club; I will never denigrate him, but I will also not rewrite history.

I only get to see home games live due to family & financial commitments. I live in Cheshire now so a 3pm home game for me basically takes up the whole day, but I've had a season ticket for 35 years so have a valid opinion having seen the good, the bad & the ugly over that period, & was at Wembley for the Full Members Cup win etc. in my black rimmed NHS specs as seen on ITV news!

I didn't see the Preston home game due to the weather (last season when it snowed it took me 3 hours to get to Ewood, only for the match to be postponed when 500 yards away!), nor the Wigan away game, but I am acutely aware from here, from facebook, from twitter, from JDT, from the LT and Lancs live how poor we were, there was no doubting it! I saw the Burnley debacle on tv & called it out for what it was on here afterwards. I get those results and performances will stick in the craw most for those folk who spent good money & time to attend.

If you look at my history of posts on here, hopefully you'll recognise that they're less of the knee jerk type & more objective than most. Perhaps on this occasion I've fallen into blue-and-white tinted specs territory, but if so that's only because I feel the extent of criticism of JDT is so unwarranted. He walked into a shitstorm really in the summer but despite that urrently has us 3rd, has brought half a dozen academy players into the fold (albeit through necessity, but mostly successfully), has made some decent, good value signings (and some admittedly less so, like all managers) and has been honest enough after poor performances to admit they were below par.

He came in saying "I was looking for a project, but the project found me".  He was open about that from the start. There were some who questioned the wisdom of his appointment, but the majority view was that it's a bold & ambitious appointment, a welcome change from the usual dinosaur merry go round, and that he would need time to rebuild a broken & morale-strapped squad to even make us competitive. Now, due mainly to poor performances against 3 local rivals, he is vilified for every wrong move & deemed lucky when things go our way.

Listen to any manager, they all say that young players are prone to inconsistency. If you have half a dozen players aged 23 or less in your team / squad, it's more likely than not that they will put in inconsistent performances from one week to the next week, just like we have done (contrast poor defeats to Burnley, Wigan, Sheff Utd and Preston with deserved wins v QPR, Watford, Blackpool & Swansea). He had 6 weeks to get to know his squad, backroom team, a new internal structure in its infancy, and Broughton himself, to understand the division, and to identify upgrades, before games then came every 3-4 days for 15 weeks in an unprecedented season. All with a thin squad inherited from Mowbray due to contract mismanagement that's been padded out with loans, academy players & a few others known to be injury prone.

I just don't get why so many people are so critical of JDT when you take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I respect people's views & don't pretend to be any kind of Oracle. Nor do I expect to change the minds of others, but I do feel it's right to stick up for fair comment.

To round off, Venkys ownership has been nothing short of shambolic. As a consequence, we don't have the muscle, the pull or the stature we did 15 or 20 years ago. We can't just push out our chests and say "We are Blackburn Rovers". Venkys have dismantled what we were. So our short term aims and goals have to be set accordingly, to build from the bottom up, to build up the academy, to become self-sufficient & not rely on handouts. That's the context of JDT's arrival here and it's his job, over time, to usher in a new era for the club and oversee a smooth transition to rising again as a different beast to what we were under Jack. It has to be like that because Venkys won't sell.

That's the reality of where we are now, like it or not.

4 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

A lot of it is psychological. If we’d have drawn a few of those bad defeats, and some of the wins too - so still on pretty much the same points we are on now, I bet the general feeling around the club would be much better.

Unlike the charge up the table last November/December, we’ve not put any kind of run together since August, so never really feeling like we are getting some momentum behind us. Every win feeling like it’s followed by a stinking defeat, especially the two shockers to local rivals bookending a mid season break.

It’s certainly true that draws don’t really do a lot for your league position, but a nice unbeaten run does a lot of the mood!

 

I think there's a lot in this, hence why some people need a reality check re JDTs football bein boring, or people feeling entertained. But ultimately 3rd place is a great place to be at this point in time.

This desire for entertainment, has it ever been thus or is it recent phenomenon spawn of the internet & instant gratification? I remember some dull patches under Hughes & Souey especially, isn't it just part of football for some games to be dull & uninspiring?

It's before my time, but many on here who I see criticising JDT are some of the same folk who look back fondly to the days of Howard Kendall which, from what I understand, was very much built on 1-0 wins, scoring then shutting up shop. Hardly sounds inspirational, but it was effective ultimately. Bearing in mind JDT has had 6 months in charge, there's surely an inconsistency there?

10 minutes ago, broadsword said:

I can't even remember myself now to be honest 🤣 but Twitter play to you for your passion and earnestly-held views.

I don't want to argue any further, only too say let's keep our fingers crossed for the rest of the season. All the best to you.

Hats off to you sir for engaging, I almost feel guilty for taking you to task now (almost)!

Let's argue no more as you say. We both want the same in the end.

1 hour ago, broadsword said:

Not sure what all of this valid evidence is. Did Jack ever appoint someone without a track record in this country? No. He always went for what he saw as the best available man for the job at that point.

Anyway, time will tell. If he somehow manages to get us promoted, then I'll be big enough to admit that I got it wrong, and of course I'll be made up. We'll just have to wait and see.

The valid evidence that JDT has done well is the league table. In June when he took over, with 6 first teamers having left on frees or returned to their parent clubs, most anticipated us being closer to 3rd bottom, not 3rd top.

I'm not sure why you've gone down the "Jack would never have appointed him" route, but seeing how you have you should recall that Jack appointed Hodgson; he also got Eriksen to agree to come here. Neither of them had a record in this country. It's a different world now anyway. He also appointed Kidd & Harford, who respectively had zero & little  managerial experience at all. Thinking about it, Jack's only truly successful managerial appointment was Kenny.

But yes, we'll see if JDT achieves promotion. If he does then that's a massive overachievement, even getting 6th upwards would be given the circs. Realistically he should be given more time to instill his ideas & get his own personnel in. See what J*B said above re how well respected he seems to be at Ewood.

7 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

We're 3rd on merit

The football isn't that great, but getting better. 

We win a lot of games

We lose a lot of games

We're in a great position with 20 games to go, far better than most imagined at the start of the year. 

Some signings have been excellent, some average. some poor. 

Based on the above JDT is doing a good job, considering he's only been here 6 months and he's implementing a lot of changes. 

 

Very true. Are we really having a poor season or boring to watch when all we do is either win games or lose them, and we've won more than we've lost? Don't get me wrong, I'd be happier if we'd won more than we have, or drawn some of those that we've lost, but I don't think we're boring to watch overall, nor underperforming overall.

If anything we're overperforming, but I guess that must be in spite of JDT. How stupid & mentally gymnastical of me!

3 hours ago, broadsword said:

Jack would never have appointed him in the first place,

There it is, a pre-formed judgement that you won't budge from despite lots of valid evidence to the contrary. It's clear that you were never on board with JDT's appointment in the first place even before he set foot in the door, so as a consequence he's fighting an uphill battle and being judged as no good on the back of a few admittedly poor performances and results, whilst the bigger picture is being overlooked.

By the way Jack (God rest his soul) oversaw the appointments of such successes as Ray Harford (RIP), Roy Hodgson & Brian Kidd. As wonderful for this club as Jack was, he was far from perfect in his managerial appointments. 

5 minutes ago, BRFC_Polky said:

Connor Wickham has left Forest Green Rovers and has interest from Championship and League One clubs.

9 goals in 20 games this season.

With him being a free agent and possibly on a lower wage, I wonder if he’s on Rovers radar?

With the the amount of injuries he’s had I would stay clear IMO.

I sincerely hope not.

Jeez, the be all & end all of this season is not beating Burnley, Preston, Blackpool & Wigan. It's coming 1st or 2nd, or 3rd - 6th & winning the playoffs. That's thinking big; thinking just about local bragging rights is small-minded (as symbolically important as they obviously are).

Put it another way. If Jack was still here, would he have sacked JDT after the Burney & Preston games? Course not.

If you think beating local rivals is all that counts, then winning the Prem title in 94/95 or the League Cup in 2002 must've meant nothing to you, and you'd prefer it if we'd have won the Manx Cup instead!

From dictionary.com:

"Must win - a contest, project, scheme, etc., of which a successful or victorious outcome is essential because anything less would negate all preceding efforts"

You're misunderstanding the concept if you seriously believe that every match we play in a 46 game season is "must win". A failure to beat Cardiff would not have negated all previous efforts.

Was it important? Of course, but "must win" it  absolutely was not.

I suggest you stop tying yourself up in knots to justify the unjustifiable.

3 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

That's all I'm doing too.

We are only still in the top 3 because we won.

Thats where this started, proving as expected the validity of my argument.

 

Ok, it was "must win" if the goal was to ensure that we stayed in 3rd place after that round of matches. But that counts for nothing in May, as there is no direct season-defining consequence of winning or losing that match alone; it wasn't must win in terms of our overall chances of promotion, which is what counts and which was the context of the discussion being had.

Someone else on here mentioned mental gymnastics... keep on cartwheeling! 😉

2 hours ago, Upside Down said:

You get 24 points as well as bragging rights.

You get nothing for losing eight derbies by giving totally gutless performances. 

 

The mental gymnastics going on round here really are something to behold.

There's no mental gymnastics going on here, the choice being discussed was lose the derbies but get into the playoffs, or win the derbies but miss out on the playoffs. 

Surely getting into the playoffs is the goal if 1st or 2nd is unachievable, regardless of who we win the points from??

Just now, Atko's Engine said:

Not anymore I live near Knutsford, but there's a Burnley fan in the village who I've been avoiding for 2 months!

But anyway, however realistic it might be the choice between winning 8 local derbies but going down, compared to winning none but then reaching the playoffs, literally should be a no brainer for any fan who wants the club to get up off its knees.

Not anymore I live near Knutsford, but there's a Burnley fan in the village who I've been avoiding for 2 months!

But anyway, however realistic it might be the choice between winning 8 local derbies but going down, compared to winning none but then reaching the playoffs, literally should be a no brainer for any fan who wants the club to get up off its knees.

13 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

No, winning the play off final is what really counts. Anything less and I’d swap to win the other derbies. You get nothing for losing in the play offs.

You get nothing for winning 8 derbies either, other than bragging rights & a chance to fight for the L1 title next season. I'd rather lose in the playoffs than that.

13 minutes ago, Upside Down said:

So the Burnley, PNE and Wigan embarrassments were all good then? Just practice matches I take it?

This is Championship football where the steaks are incredibly high and local derby games are not the time or place to be fucking about 'practicing' something that has been proven time and time again to be totally ineffective at best and absolutely suicidal at worst.

The Burnley game was a very stringy rump steak sure, I said as much on here post match; I didn't see the other two matches but clearly they were no better.

In mentioning those 3 though, you've omitted mentioning the equally good 28 day-matured sirloin performances & results v Swansea, Blackpool & Watford, for example. I'm just saying there's 2 sides to the coin but everyone seems to focus on the poor whilst ignoring (or worse, dismissing as fortunate) the good.

We're still 3rd, for me I'd take losing all 8 of our derby matches in the regular season if it meant we qualify for the playoffs, because that's what really counts come May, right? 

8 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

If you are happy to wave a white flag then crack on.

You must have been delighted Mowbray threw the L1 title.

Weird behaviour.

In life you take the opportunities if and when they arise and also in football. Take advantage of this being, apart from the top 2, a mediocre standard in the Championship and go for it or someone else will.

Anyway we won this inconsequential game or we would now be 5th and quite possibly out of the playoff positions by the end of today games.

But some it appears are ok with that.

For the record any game at any level is must win or just don't bother.

I see Chaddy liked your post. What a suprise ...... I rest my case

Sorry, no white flag waving here. If I was I wouldn't have bothered going yesterday, unlike many others who seem to me to be the ones waving white flags having surrendered to the belief that there's no hope until JDT is gone.

I wasn't delighted that we didn't win L1, but I was delighted that we got promoted straight away (which we all knew was the objective) & didn't languish there for 2, 3 or 4+ seasons like many other clubs have of similar stature to us.

We're in the top 3 and have been for 2+ months. We're ahead of 2 of the 3 relegated clubs with parachute payments, ahead of more than a dozen city clubs with bigger gates / income than us. To my mind JDT is going for it, whilst managing his limited resources. Whether the club backs him this window we'll see, but if it doesn't that's not his fault.

Who said yesterday's game was inconsequential? Straw man argument there because I didn't. You say every match is must win, sorry that's not true. Every match is could or might win, some are should / expect to win, but only games with critical outcomes arising from their result are truly must wins (cup games, play-offs, the last half dozen games in promotion or relegation battles, or when a loss in that games make something unachievable, like going up or staying up).

No need for the not-so-sly dig at the end either, we're only expressing points of view on a message board, backed up by objective stats. 👍

13 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Mad opinions on a football message board baffle you? Not been visiting them long, I take it?

As I said, each to their own but I try to look at things both subjectively as a Rovers fan, as objectively as a realist.

What JDT does & what the team / players do game to game is not the only thing that impacts the outcome. He's got us far better organised than we were. But it's also injuries, form, opposition, weather, referees, pitch, KO time, luck, all of which conspire on any given day to bring an outcome. I would argue that with us being 3rd after 24 games, he's done far more right than he has done wrong in his brief tenure to date, and has coped better with those variables than 21 other managers in the division. 

55 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Booing mate, people losing patience with JDT and his abysmal football 

As I said in the match thread, I'm pretty sure those boos were for the ref, not the team.

Look each to their own, but I just don't think the criticism is coming from a place of realism or context.  I wish we were steamrollering teams 3 or 4 nil week in week out, but that's not realistic of any team in this division.

Look back to the first few pages of this thread. Comments of "he needs cash from the board", "he needs at least 3 windows", "he'll need time to acclimatise & get used to this league", "let's set about rebuilding this squad" etc. No "promotion here we come", "promotion or bust", "I'll give him until Jan 1st, if he's not in the top 2 by then he must be clueless".

Why the change in attitude when he had 6 weeks to get to know the squad before the season started, a squad which was shorn of several 1st teamers that had just come off TMs worst ever "death spiral" of relegation form, a much shortened transfer window, has had nearly half a season squeezed into 3 and a bit months with barely any time to train between matches, has had to integrate half a dozen academy graduates into the first team squad, yet is still 3rd in the league??

It baffles me, it really does. 

On 01/01/2023 at 01:29, Upside Down said:

We haven't played well for a full match this whole season. 

Every time we have lost we have been abysmal. As soon as we concede we have lost the game. 

We have some good players and we have shown that we can beat just about any team but for some reason the management keep insisting on playing a style of football that the players we have are not capable of.

With the exception of 2009 era Barcelona I have never seen a team exclusively play out from the back successfully. Fair play, they wanted to try something different but after 20 minutes it was obvious that it wasn't going to work. Week after week we keep trying something that doesn't work and will never work. That is 100% the fault of the manager. He clearly doesn't know what he's doing.

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again."

"Practice makes perfect."

Two well known adages that highlight the importance of keeping on plugging away at what you believe in & standing by your principles. Look at what Potter did with Brighton over a period of time, Dyche at Burnley, even Fergie at United way back when.

If JDT's approach had us languishing in the bottom third of the table then I could understand this point of view, but that's not where we are is it?

Yesterday was a good example of how we can mix it up; playing it around patiently, looking for opportunities, playing through the lines, using longer balls over the top or diagonally, or hoofing it when required. 

I just don't get the grief he receives, or your conclusion that he clearly doesn't know what he's doing. 

10 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

Boos at half time.....

OMG, they were for the ref!!!