Whatever the reasons and excuses are, it was a failure of a window, no matter how you try to dress it up or distract. Ultimately, Mowbray and Waggott both admitted as much. We required reinforcements, the manager wanted reinforcements, and he was unable to bring them in. No matter why or how, it was an unsuccessful window and not the first unsuccessful one. I am not saying that it is easy or that there arent hurdles to overcome but ultimately the failure to improve a team in need of improvements is a bad window. You dont need to be a fly on any wall to make that judgement and it seems that no one shares that opinion more than the 2 members of staff that you are defending. I am judging him based on tangible aspects of the club in which I can have an opinion on. There are various aspects to ticketing (and marketing) which I feel he has got wrong and which have helped lead to a repeated inability to hit various targets. You (or anyone) havent really explained what he has done that is positive aside from suggesting that his heart is in the right place which I dont doubt. I suppose ticketing failures are fairly unimportant though if he is kind enough to ask fellow employees how they are feeling! Like I said, I am sure he is a nice bloke but it is fairly irrelevant, just as it is with Mowbray.

I suppose the problem is, it is all well and good putting your hands up but you look at the last 4 windows, twice when supposedly gearing up for a sustained play off push, we have allowed transfer windows to lapse without strengthening, and in the last 2 summer ones, the vast majority of our budget has spent on 2 players who have not improved us at all, and actions speak louder than words. I dont doubt that some decent signings, Downing, Adarabioyo and Reed for example have been made during that time but they arent improving us long term. The only player that has improved us long term has been Armstrong and it is only really now that he is proving that on a sustained basis.

That would be interesting. To be fair, these sorts of events are all about gaining good PR arent they, basically showing your enthusiasm and getting the balance between saying everything the people in there want you to say to earn further leeway in the future whilst being as vague as possible and not making specific promises or statements that can come and bite you in the arse further down the line. The "defenders are coming" comment is a prime example of when Mowbray has tried to placate the fans and get them on side, which did work short term, but making such a strong and simplistic statement has then become a barometer for his future actions or inactions. I think its important to try and stay impartial and solely judge on what actually happens, rather than start moulding and changing your opinion around what is said here.

Agreed, they certainly are and his response doesnt inspire confidence that it will change. If it does, well done to him, if it doesnt then more fool him. If the team went into a tailspin and say went down for example, Waggott would not be the first man with his head on the block, Mowbray would do the answering and I am not saying this with any certainty but I suspect that having Waggott in between to somewhat fight his corner may be of benefit to him. That is one of the primary tangible aspects that we can judge him on and for me he has come up sadly lacking in that area. From his advertising campaigns and interviews he comes across as someone who is happy to try and remove himself of any responsibility, something which he was called out on in this meeting. Mowbray has earnt respect based on what he has done, even though as I have previously surmised, he has done some bad things too. I am not saying that Waggott has anything other than good intentions but I am struggling to name much if anything that he has done to warrant much respect or trust. I do appreciate that there is far more to judge a manager on.

Obviously there will have been an element of duress, and obviously he was never going to get a better job, but speaking in facts, he did resign (even if it was tactical on his part for financial reasons, or whatever) and thus we will never know whether the club would have sacked him otherwise. I am well aware of the legal action that followed etc but the fact of the matter is that Steve Kean resigned, Venkys never sacked him despite being consistently horrendous for such a long period of time.

Whether pressure to which extent we will never know how strong forced Kean out, it is a matter of fact that he wasnt sacked and it is rewriting history to deny that.

It would follow absolutely no logic to stick Bennett in the midfield 3, theres no need for him to be starting. Johnson is an actual central midfielder so surely he starts over Bennett.

I was talking specifically about the meeting. Our league position is 10th and our clearly stated aim is the top 6 so its nothing remarkable. I gave my view on the situation regarding Mowbray (basically sitting on the fence) earlier in this thread. Waggott I am unsure as to why he receives praise at a similar level because for me his ticketing policies have in the main failed.

With events like this I do think people sometimes get drawn in and carried away by the furore and enthusiasm shown, no one doubts especially Mowbrays passion but it is their competence and performance that should be evaluated. People were buzzing after the last one but things they said didnt really come to fruition. For example, many of the criticisms aimed at Waggott, surcharges, pricing, an aggressive marketing pitch etc contributing towards an inability to hit sales targets for example havent really been answered either way or solved. And we are no clearer regarding the issues around recruitment failures of the past. Obviously it would never be asked at such an event but I am not sure how healthy it is with Mowbray basically having a safe job as long as Waggott is here based on their previous relationship. Minor point but I really hope the option isnt taken on Bells contract, would be a backwards step.

Regarding finance I think its all hypothetical, I am not going to be under the impression that their desire to fund a promotion winning team has been taken out of their hands based on cryptic whispers. They didnt fund a promotion team even before FFP took hold. Even if these supposed players and staff did believe it, the only people who would know are Venkys themselves and their actions even prior to FFP suggest not. I dont doubt that Mowbray wants to do well nor ever have but its not enough or even particularly relevant in judging him as a manager. Nothing he says would really make a blind bit of difference to how I judge him to be honest, that will solely be on results and performance. You mention the available finance but thats what many people have become concerned and critical, the main money has been wasted, like I said yesterday at the end of this season I am unconvinced if the squad is in much if any better shape compared to a year ago and the main difference is not the players he has spent big money on, its perhaps the likes of Nyambe and Travis having a year of further development. I find Mowbrays position one lacking clarity in terms of my own opinion if I am honest. I have grateful for what he has done in parts so far, especially the promotion season. There are certain individual things, signing Dack, to a lesser extent Armstrong, promoting and developing Travis etc that I think are very impressive. There are obvious signs (reliant on the temporary additions of Adarabioyo and Downing) that suggest a tangible change of style. The expectations are the play offs, and we have not yet been realistically right in the frame. And he has had 2 major investment opportunities that he couldnt have handled any worse. Has he done enough to convince me that we will move forward enough to be capable of a top 6 finish any time soon under him and he is capable of spending any significant money if and when it comes his way again? Probably not. Equally, has he stagnated enough overall to warrant me actively wanting him out and replaced? No I wouldnt say he has. Weve heard what he has said in the past at these meetings that hasnt really come to fruition so its all action based judgement and I am in the middle as it stands I think.

Surely as @Mattyblue points out that results should dictate how long he is here for, not how much desire and passion he showed in a 10 minute chat with you. Still not convinced either that Venkys would fund us to promote but are being prevented by red tape. I suppose we will never know for sure either way but its incredibly naive to suggest that.

Fair enough. I suppose he has said things in the past that have not carried any weight in his actions, its all about what he does not what he says. My worries on the playing side is that the main failure of last summer was the one that had the biggest outlay and supposedly the most long term use. When next August arrives, are we much better than we were at the end of last season? I think that the rest of the season seems again like a development phase ahead of next season, with controllable factors (transfer recruitment/lack of) and uncontrollable factors (bad injuries) making any play off hopes practically obsolete. What we could take from this season is players proving that they can make a tangible attacking impact at this level to help us going forward. Rothwell, Rankin Costello, Chapman, Gallagher, Buckley, Samuel and Brereton have all yet to prove themselves (obviously I am not saying they have all had loads of chances) but if a couple step up it may ease the burden on a potentially very demanding summer window. Waggott im not sure warrants too much respect, regarding issues of contention such as surcharges, ticketing etc he mainly bats them off and provides lip service that wont go any further.

What did he say of interest afterwards?

The usual hot air at these events, absolutely no constructive response about the surcharge, just placating fans by saying he will look into it, nothing will happen. Nothing to see here!

Another huge blow. With these injuries and the inability to sign anyone, we look horribly short in attacking areas. No idea how we go from here. If Armstrong stops scoring we are really up shit creek.

I do find it interesting that both Bennett and Gallagher have again been defended because they work hard. Travis, Lenihan, Nyambe and Downing all work hard for example and give their all but thats never mentioned because they have other qualities that they bring to the team. Which of our players dont work hard?

Its not to do with it being aesthetically unpleasant, because you could argue that playing Graham also falls under that category. I just dont think it will be effective with Bennett in the 10 especially as part of that 3 as you mentioned. Such a tactic may work as a one off but you want someone who can use the ball well and offer a threat. If we want to continue to be a bit more progressive with the likes of Adarabioyo and Downing then it will fall down with him as a 10, and if we decide that we have to compromise then we may aswell at least use someone like Graham who offers a goal threat. I understand the furore around his potential inclusion because I think really he should have been culled as with Smallwood and Mulgrew as a League 1 quality player yet for much of the season he was the first name on the teamsheet regardless of position. In the last couple of months, refreshingly he has become far less integral.

He had Rothwell and Armstrong either side in that game. You need someone in that role to take advantage of the space between the lines and he lacks the technical ability and the vision, and offers absolutely no goal threat. As you say, theres certainly no confidence in them 3 and we would become solely reliant on Armstrong. Thats why I suspect Graham will need to play. If anyone left is to play as a 10 it should be Downing.

Contrast that to last season when we put in possibly our worst performance all season at home to Stoke and he played there and I dont think we mustered a proper chance all game. We cant play him there, he doesnt have the ability to take advantage.

It looks ok on paper but such a formation doesnt tend to work when you just play it as a one off and it doesnt tend to work when we use it or flirt with the idea anyway, add to the fact that Mitrovic is a lone striker and it seems a bit of a waste to have a third centre back. I dont think it suits Nyambe to play anywhere but as a right back in a 4, obviously as a centre back he looks uncomfortable and aerially lacking and as a wing back as you have shown, I dont think he has the end product to play wing back as for all of his power and pace, he hasnt started chipping in with assists, and only then will teams start to sit up and take notice of him. Bell doesnt provide assists either but Downing is our only remaining player who plays between the lines so it seems a waste to push him back. All being said, I think its a real struggle to name a team for the weekend with the injuries and lack of reinforcements. I dont want it to seem like I am just criticising for the sake of it. I think I would either accept that without so many key players, we have to compromise somewhat and be a bit more pragmatic and revert to 442, and play Graham up top with Armstrong, and Downing and Rankin Costello wide. That would potentially leave us exposed in terms of central midfield but both wide midfielders would naturally be a bit more narrow. Alternatively, we could play Downing as a 10, Armstrong up front to maintain the formula of having Armstrong up top and a player to link behind him, but then who do you play wide (Rankin Costello and Chapman for me, we know Gallagher will be shoehorned in there) and where do the goals come from? Its a tough one.

Interesting and unsurprising stat about our fast starts this season. Good to see us hitting teams from the front. Of course some investigation required about why we have only won 12 games, including Sheffield Wednesday when we conceded first. Need to improve our game management.

Thanks. Lets hope its not as bad as first feared as we need him as soon as possible.

I think that if that was a serious option, I would have to lean towards playing Graham with Armstrong, as at least we would have have 2 goal threats. We could basically play with 2 banks of 4 beyond that, Downing and Rankin Costello as wide men who can tuck in when needed.

@Bigdoggsteel where does it say about Holtby being out for the season?

Bar Armstrong, I dont see who will score any goals. Assuming Johnson, Travis and Downing ahead are our 3 central, who on earth do we put either side of Armstrong? Rankin Costello and Chapman are the only 2, it is a huge ask of them but I dont see an alternative.