I do worry that TM after reaching expectations (if in an awkward manner and with £7 million wasted) the last 2 seasons may start taking us backwards. For starters the squad looks worse at the end of this season then at the end of the first transfer window after promotion. Sure a few youngsters have come through but in terms of buys and holes in the squad we are looking at being no further on.

You do wonder psychologically what an 8-0 mauling will do to them as well as the other effects. On the flip side at this rate Wigan will finish above us pre deduction. Thats pretty poor.

This reminds me a little bit of the Millwall game under Appleton. Similar.performance and result. Similar consequences?

Think this sums up my view too. They are where they are because the football league is grossly negligent with fit and proper owners. If it weren't for them and someone with unsavoury motives they wouldn't be in this situation. Hull seem in real trouble, but then so do three or four other teams. It could be close and -8 to the goal difference cannot help at all. Good to know that you bet on things other than football. Edit as an aside it's nice to see the loathsome Derby's playoff bid failing. Glad it looks like they are coming unstuck. Doesn't matter how much money they throw at it or what dodgy deals they do, or even how much talent is in the squad, they just can't get the job done.

I think I would get rid at any price really but there may not be any takers unless it's on loan? Maybe for a low fee £1-2 mill someone might take a punt but it'll not be easy to shift him. A Big Sam type manager probably could get a tune out of him, so a sale isn't out of the question, but his wages are perhaps another barrier. That said either here or elsewhere a Big Sam type manager could make his useful if not proficient and an asset not a liability. Frustratingly TM seems to be doing the opposite playing him away from a role he could perhaps do. . Mind you I think there are a number of players who'd do well under a Big Sam type manager. I could see Bothwell's runs drawing fouls in dangerous areas. Downing or even Mulgrew whipping in dangerous balls to the box. I reckon a number of players would be more efficient under Big Sam.

Your first paragraph ignores the fact that both can be true. He can be progressing us AND be playing players out of position. Think of it the other way round - how much better than where we are now would we be if he didn't continue to make these basic mistakes. Also as commented by others and myself on here it's hard to assess what progress is due to the ambiguity of what success looks like and the uncertain but limited time frame we have before the team is dismantled. Personally I don't think we have progressed this season anything like we should have. When you compare to Souness's or Hughes third season we were perhaps at the pinnacle of that team and you feel we are still a long way from the best we could possibly be under TM. By the third year it was their team in their style and doing the best that they could do. I think we don't know our best team and aren't punching above our weight as those teams (albeit in a championship context) with the consistency you would expect after 4+ windows of shaping the team. I also have issues in terms of progress with the squad. Too many loans, too many aging stars who need replacing. It seems like the squad needs a lot of work in the summer and very little was addressed effectively last summer. Even our good buys had a limited shelf life due to loans or age. Finally in terms of context - the playoffs have been more than attainable. Just a tiny bit more consistency, beating one weaker team we have struggled against a minor improvement in form and we would be properly in the mix and in a good position. Given the circumstances of the season, we really should have capitalised on this, even with Dack's injury - an admittedly significant blow. I hope so too. Goodness knows we need it. I think my big reservations on this happening is he hasn't looked like he is nearly clicking at all, he has looked very poor on many occasions as oppose to frustrating and thirdly I really don't see the wide right experience helping him. I wouldn't lay odds on it. I grant you I didn't see Armstrong becoming what he was but the talent was clearly there. There were lots of cries of if only he were a bit more consistent he would be a huge asset, little knowing how consistent he would become. So yeah players can change but the evidence before me makes it seem unlikely. I think Gally and Ben would still be classed as mediocre signings at best if they did hit Armstrong type form. The reason I say this is 1) for the money we paid you expect an immediate contribution and we have had little. 2) the opportunity costs of not being able to spread the money round the team. And 3) even if they did well would we get more than the cost of each player? Probably not making it a very costly way to accumulate an extra million or two.

Nah, the only manager hated by Rovers fans was Kean. Even Coyle was acknowledged to have been given a crap deal even though he was utterly inept. I see plenty of criticism for the current manager, yes, but here's the thing: it's all for actual mistakes he has made. Persevering with under performing players, poor formations, playing players out of position, his poor transfers, his unbalanced squad, his criticisms in public on certain players. These are all legitimate concerns and genuine issues with TM. Now, there is an issue as to whether his positives should be mentioned more as well. And there is definitely an argument they should. We're not useless and neither is he because of where we are. But again, whether there should be more balance doesn't mean a) fans want us to lose or b) that there aren't some serious flaws in the manager. And for the record I am more annoyed with TM than Coyle or some of the other jokers we have appointed - because he isn't a complete duffer. Coyle for example was a write off, useless, so his uselessness was expected. TM has a bit about him which is why his basic mistakes and errors are all the more frustrating. I mean how can the guy who buys Dack think Bereton us worth 7 million? How can he outthink Cardiff and Bristol but not know how to beat a team in the bottom 3? How can he be so critical of Nayambe but let Bennett play despite being horrific. How can we play a formation specifically to get the best out of Dack, yet then stuck Gally on the wing? You see, TM is a paradox and all the more irritating for it.

This is what gets me most. The stuff which is very controllable but seems to make us weaker is most worrying. There is an element of risk in any signing and game plans don't work out but constantly starting under performing players, playing nunerous players out of position and chopping and changing the team and formation are all things that are obvious and known (especially after a few games) but seem to take forever to be acted upon. And if we can't get the basics like this right, then it is just giving us an uphill struggle. Plus if TM hasn't learned this by now then he never will.

My remark is snidey?!? Implying Rovers fans want us to lose wins award for that. That said I shouldnt respond in kind, even if it does my nut in that people think they would want their team to lose? Seriously there's nothing good about losing for a Rovers fan. (Although I admit, if it were a midtable game with nothing to play for and by us losing we relegated Burnley or Manure, I admit, I would be rather philosophical about the loss...) Very. Or they were just bulling because they didn't want to go. That said it's a bit of an extrapolation from that to saying fans who criticise the team or manager want us to lose.

The fact you can make a convincing case for so many teams going down makes it a very exciting league. The Wigan deduction means that even with their great form they still need to perform exceptionally well to avoid the drop. Is Charlton's best players refusing to play beginning to catch up with them? Is Hulls lack of replacements for talent sold going to hurt them? Are Stoke a complete basket case of a club? Are Luton and Barnsley just too small? It's compelling stuff down there. At the other end if we don't get playoffs then any team other than Derby and their loathsome ethics in what is a swamp of morals and I'd be happy. That a club can make me disgusted even within the sewer that is football is quite impressive in a perverse way. Thing is there are a ton of teams chasing the playoffs all with a decent about. It's interesting stuff. Then there's the top. Brentford, West Brom and Leeds are excellent teams but only 2 are going up automatically. One is going to have to settle for the playoff lottery. Perhaps Fulham should be included in that number but I feel they are handicapped by their manager. So at both ends of the table there is a hell of a lot to play for and a heck of a lot of uncertainty. Tbh I think it once again proves the championship is the most exciting league out there.

Not sure it does compensate for so many reasons. One is to do with resources and risk - if a 2 million signing doesn't work out, one portion of the budget has gone wrong. When 5-7 million is wasted that's your whole budget. In other words we could gamble in two or three £2 million ish signings and the risks are devolved and reduced by two thirds. The potential benefits are multiplied by three as well if all come off. As it is the lost opportunity costs of being able to buy a balanced squad on top of the flops of Gally and Ben is huge and something that has hurt us just as much as their non performances. There's also the issues of Armstrong costing more than you say and only having become very good in the last 6 months. Well worth persevering with and plenty of potential - and am loving his form - but equally let's not pretend we have had 3 years of excellent form out of him. Not criticising the move but just pointing out another reason why they don't balance out. Oh then there's the minor detail of the 12 million putting us in danger of FFP/allowing this to become an excuse for cutting the budget. So yeah on a host of fronts people are quite rightly concerned by the outlay on strikers, and it cannot simply be washed away with well Dack and Armstrong are good signings. More to the point what pees me off about your post is that Rovers fans genuinely want us to lose. Yeah right! I've yet to find a Rovers fan who wants us to lose. Criticising the manager is not the same as wanting the team to lose. Nor is not rating the manager. The two things are mutually exclusive and the idea that any Rovers fan would be gutted if we snuck into the playoffs and went up is horse manure. More like you can't cope with different opinions. It must be easier if you tell yourself those nasty critics want us to lose, but it just doesn't wash or ring true at all.

TM is accorded the benefit of the wider context of if we get rid his replacement would likely be worse. It's an argument I have a lot of time for given we recruit from a second rate agency. However the wider context should also be applied to how quickly we need promotion and the odds of a slow build happening being slim indeed. Dack, Armstrong, Lenihen all will be gone in the next year or two - it's the nature of football and a pattern under Vs. So a slow build isn't really that viable, and I feel we stand on the edge of another shut down resources and bust cycle. With this in mind IF we can keep the squad together next year it very much must be last chance saloon. As it is, I fear we are already drinking in it. The squad needs a fair number replacing with loans and aging stars and there's never been a more open championship where an ounce more consistency or quality and we would be a few points better off and comfortably in playoffs. Which brings us on to today's game. Another one that shows the skills and flaws of TM's Rovers in equal measure. A point against a very good standard of opposition is not to be sniffed at and shows we are a decent to good side. However we perhaps could and should have won, which would have put us solidly back in the race, but once again failed to do so. We really are a close but no cigar (wherever that phrase comes from) type of team. We clearly are nearly men and won't actually break top 6, but equally and frustratingly we aren't far away. We perhaps could and should have won today and have been in that place before. It being tantalisingly just out of reach, being just not quite good enough is what gets us so frustrated. In a way I see a lot of parallels with Bowyer. The team isn't as good but we get more bang for our bucks out of this lot. If TM was just a bit cannier at signing players maybe we'd be edging it. As it is we're nearly men and I feel we are on the edge of another bust cycle. Could coronavirus be our rescue, with a lack of buying power for clubs keeping the squad together, giving TM another chance at promotion. Perhaps. Certainly bar Tosin - admittedly a huge miss - the replacements would struggle to be worse than what we have. That said TMs record in the transfer market has not been good so it's an anxious time. I guess my theory is we will see another Bowyer cycle through, then get through a few more of our agency's rejects. Hopefully we will get another Bowyer cycle through and third time lucky - this one has the nous to get us over the finish line. That we've come kinda close with the loons in charge, a substandard structure and imo mediocre management, means it is possible. It's the hope that kills you.

Why it takes us till now for us to play our best 11 in the circumstances with an unchanged lineup I will never know. Better late than never though.

Where to start? I get it's opinions but the Walton not being a failure one seems a bit stubborn and illogical. His form for the first part of the season was poor. His form since the restart has been dire. He's dropped significantly more clangers then Raya. How the heck is that not a failure? Teams carry players, that's always been the case. And judging by his performances I think that's the case. Johnson wasn't brought as a useful in some situations squad player. The fact he has not held down a place and looked poor on a number of occasions, at likely great expense, suggests he has been a failure. I get it's opinions but as I have said on other threads opinions aren't sacrosanct and unchallengeable/must be valued - for example if I thought the moon was made of cheese. And whilst football is hugely subjective I struggle to see how a chap performing badly every week from August to November and then since the restart, can be seen as a decent piece of business!

Not a reaction to his performances since the start up - although you have to admit these have been shocking. The first half of the season I was a big critic too as he was poor then as well. If anything people were forgetting the poor start he made for us as he picked up from around Christmas time onwards. And yes I would say as a signing in such a key position he has been a disaster because two thirds of his performances, not just since the restart - which is revisionism - have been appalling. That to me is the definition of a bad signing. And actually as the Wigan and Preston games for two show, one player can undo the good work of the rest as the team as evidenced by these examples. Our good or decent defending was undone by Walton's needless errors. It shows the keeper is in some ways very much in debted to the rest of the team. I think if you look people are more saying he makes basic rookie errors that shouldn't be made - like playing players out of position and keeping with underperforming favourites. These are clueless moves. Clearly he isn't a terrible manager - we've lived through Coyle and Kean so we Rovers fans can spot a bad manager - but he does make stupid, needless mistakes that really are basic football 101 principles. To say otherwise and that these aren't clueless moves is a nonsense. Fortunately other players have compensated for this as have some of TMs tactics on occasions, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. You can be an ok manager but make clueless decisions in there. As for a load of bad players last summer was 50:50 on good and bad players. Gally and Walton have both been poor. I don't really think there's much debate on this and Johnson has been overall poor too. That's not a great signing ratio and a huge waste of resources and botches in some vital positions.

Not a reaction to his performances since the start up - although you have to admit these have been shocking. The first half of the season I was a big critic too as he was poor then as well. If anything people were forgetting the poor start he made for us as he picked up from around Christmas time onwards. And yes I would say as a signing in such a key position he has been a disaster because two thirds of his performances, not just since the restart - which is revisionism - have been appalling. That to me is the definition of a bad signing. And actually as the Wigan and Preston games for two show, one player can undo the good work of the rest as the team as evidenced by these examples. Our good or decent defending was undone by Walton's needless errors. It shows the keeper is in some ways very much in debted to the rest of the team. I think if you look people are more saying he makes basic rookie errors that shouldn't be made - like playing players out of position and keeping with underperforming favourites. These are clueless moves. Clearly he isn't a terrible manager - we've lived through Coyle and Kean so we Rovers fans can spot a bad manager - but he does make stupid, needless mistakes that really are basic football 101 principles. To say otherwise and that these aren't clueless moves is a nonsense. Fortunately other players have compensated for this as have some of TMs tactics on occasions, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. You can be an ok manager but make clueless decisions in there. As for a load of bad players last summer was 50:50 on good and bad players. Gally and Walton have both been poor. I don't really think there's much debate on this and Johnson has been overall poor too. That's not a great signing ratio and a huge waste of resources and botches in some vital positions.

Well a little consistency would be nice! Glad to see an admission 5 months on that Gally was playing out wide. Also the fact he is playing out wide or as a false 9 now also shows he is being played out of position. He's a pudding but isn't being helped by being played out of position.

If you are crap in two thirds of the games you play, then by any definition, a player can not be said to have a lot of quality. If you are crap in two thirds of the games you play I'd also say that seems fairly consistent to me, albeit not in a welcome way.

Agree Steele never had a purple patch but do remember one (maybe 2?) games where he played well for us. Definitely not a patch but shows anyone can have a good day. The odd good day doesn't make a player, consistency does. The problem is, as you say, when Walton isn't in a purple patch he is horrific. No team can afford that, especially when these account for 60-70% of his performances. Raya may have made errors but nowhere near as many as Walton did. Since the restart alone Walton must take some of the blame for the vast majority of the goals we have conceeded. That's suicidal for a football team, it's giving yourself a handicap. Also even knowing his potential for that must have a huge negative impact on the defence even when he isn't dropping those clangers. I never played at any decent level but even I experience the difference in a team's demeanour depending on if we had a good or dodgy keeper behind us. It totally changed how you would defend. I think for me the long and short is that Walton doesn't just make the errors a young keeper makes- he does far worse then that. He regularly makes mistakes and costs goals when they really shouldn't be goals. All young keepers have a few clangers in them, Walton has a shedload. It's going to require huge improvement for him to get to a level we would want - improving on two thirds of his performances, and significant improvement at that, is not a simple or minor process. That to me shouts out liability and something we should steer well clear of. He can't be classed as anything but an unmitigated disaster. If we had points from just two of the games he has cost us, we would be on course for playoffs. Not that there aren't other reasons for not being in playoffs but you see the point. The man is a hinderance not a help.

You are joking right? Or have I totally made up a previous heated conversation about this topic?!

Firstly there is a world of difference between those players you mentioned and the strikers we have both in terms of quality and type of player. We have no one who matches either criteria even accounting for us being in a lower division. Secondly I am sure you were adamant Gally hasn't been played wide right. He clearly has been both before and after the break and it seems you acknowledge that here.

Even accounting for the drop in quality between these teams and us, we have very different types of forwards. In fact I don't think there are many false 9s who aren't very technically gifted and therefore within our price range. Trying to play this system with the wrong players is asking for trouble.

I'd like to think even TM would do a little bit more scouting then one match where he waltzed past two substandard players. If that's the level of scouting then we might as well just pick names at random to buy.

All I hope is that the European Scouts aren't the same, or of the same ilk as the English scouring ones. After all these scouts have told us Bereton and Gally were worth buying and Walton is a keeper. If we're using the same quality of scouts the only difference will be that we will be disappointed by a variety of nationalities...

Yep I appreciate that offloading those two will be hard. I said that's what I would do and it's the best of a bad situation - appreciate there may be difficulties in this. In fact I suspect what you say will happen, but that is far from the best solution. I don't know how big the contracts are on the other two, although I have heard Gally's is quite high so getting rid is a problem. Perhaps if we offered them on frees or loans out that would recoup some of the wages if nothing else?Going on frees I expect is unlikely to happen as it makes TM look more of a clown but loans out are certainly a possibility. Think a number of clubs would perhaps gamble with them on loans. At the moment they are complete deadwood, in wages and ability. Getting them off the books somewhat, even if partial wages, would be more of a contribution from them than anything they have done this season. Also it's a fresh start and for Ben regular games can only help him. It may, if it goes well, put them in the shop window and make them vaguely attractive. My point is they are doing nothing for us now and we need getting shut of them. Yes it will be hard and, yes it will be at a loss but something is better than nothing. And nothing is what we are getting from them at present.