I can't see the logic in this line of argument though. If Pele, Maradona, or Zidane had come from Azerbaijan, do you think they would have lifted a World Cup? They would have been the exact same player. I fail to see how any player's career comes down to whether his TEAM managed to win one, very infrequently held tournament. It certainly helps, especially if they've been the driving force in such a win, but it isn't the be all and end all. I used to have what I feel was a very similar argument with my Arsenal-supporting friends. They reckoned Lehmann was a far better goalkeeper than Friedel, because of what he had won and how Friedel had won nothing. Would you agree with them? Perhaps you would, but at that time, with Lehmann dropping gaffs despite having less shots against him than Friedel, I thought they were mad to not want Friedel instead. David May won far more medals than Colin Hendry. Who was the better defender? You can never boil everything down to just trophies, because it's a team sport.

We've fallen way behind Burnley because of Chaddy's footballing IQ?! DAMN YOU CHADDY!!! Why did you have to go and sack Allardyce, hire Kean, marginalise John Williams and the board, sign Murphy and Etuhu, sell our best players for peanuts, keep Bowyer in charge for too long, fail to find a way around FFP and hire that charlatan Owen Coyle!?! You and your useless footballing IQ!

I imagine this idea comes more from his workrate and positional understanding than from any crunching tackles. His workrate isn't quite as beneficial as it used to be since his legs are going though. Personally I'm fine with having him as a squad fringe player as long as his new deal is hugely reduced. He isn't the fantastic player he was though, and I didn't expect us to offer him another contract. But if it's a far cheaper one year deal, and he isn't seen as anything more than backup, I'm ok with it.

Possibly, but I doubt it. I wouldn't have predicted us to go down if I was too far on the optimistic side I'd suggest! You did just admit to being pessimistic yourself, so maybe I look too optimistic as a result of that? I'm not generally known for my boundless optimism lol, I've been accused of being a negative person many, many times in my life. But I just call it how I see it. Not too worried about this season. I expect we might spend some little patches hovering around the relegation zone, but I do expect a roughly mid-table finish by the end.

Funny how differently people can see things. Obviously the transfer window has yet to pan out and will be key, but at the moment I'm expecting us to end the season somewhere around mid-table. If we assume we get at least Armstrong back, and make just a couple of decent signings, that is. The squad we finished the season with was far better than the one which got relegated, in my view. That, combined with the positive momentum at the club right now to hopefully get us off to a good start, and the fact that in our relegation season we had a thoroughly disenchanted fanbase, a horrendous manager for most of it and were still very unfortunate to go down, and I'm feeling fairly confident for the season. I've had a pretty good record predicting our seasons before they start lately...I predicted we would get relegated the season we got relegated, and my summer prediction for last season was 2nd place! Hopefully I get it right again...I also have a feeling we might surprise many and push in or around the playoffs, at least in patches, but that will largely depend on how stellar our business this summer is.

Wasn't saying he is, just that people were asking for an older player to disprove that they're all Murphys and Etuhus, and Mulgrew is a prime example. Most of us were hesitant about Mulgrew at the time. Sadly, Whittingham hasn't been up to much despite appearing an exciting signing for League One. Transfers can always go either way, even the ones which appear shocking or fantastic at first. But no, I wouldn't want Ireland anymore either.

Mulgrew

If he turns out to be a pointless signing, will that appease you?

There's a reason he wasn't appreciated at his 'hometown' club (he's from Wigan actually though). Go on, I'll let you figure it out. Take your time.

Don't worry, you also won't need to elucidate for those who are as intelligent and informed as you, but who do not believe in mystical celestial divinities - rendering the whole thing moot to them.

Who the hell is Platt? We need to stop including untested youth players in our summations, especially in positions where experience is essential like centre half. Ward is injury prone. Mulgrew is too. Lenihan and Mulgrew are actually natural midfielders, though both do play very well at CH. I'd consider those two the most likely candidates for last minute departures if that happens. I want to see us blood some youth in this league, but I also want to see us promoted!

He just wanted us to become crap enough that we would need him is all. Long term plan to become a Rover. True fan.

You're not very good then if that's all you sell for with all this money flying about.

Jesus, what are you even blathering about? He's only been coaching a few years and has purely trained kids for such footballing luminaries as St Kitts and Nevis, Latvia, and Taiwan!! Bowyer has coached our youth, been reserve manager, caretaker manager, and then full manager of Rovers. He also saved our pathetic hide last season. I can't tell if you're on the wind up, are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that somebody who has what, three years experience of coaching, none of it in the English game or even in any remotely top level league (or any league, it's all been international youth setups) is somebody that none of us would mind being appointed purely if he wasn't Indian? Besides, the talk isn't really about him being a youth coach, the rumour seems to be in a far more senior capacity.

Who do you think?

He doesn't seem to be getting any game time for Palace. Looking at skysports, it seems like their strikers have been subbed off for other strikers, but not Goodwillie. One sub appearance to date.

Disgraceful if true. Utterly unacceptable. It's handy and all, that Etuhu can cover at CB, but that leaves us relying on lowe to shield our shakey defence (Petrovic is listed), which was the biggest on-field reason we went down. Why are we signing nine million midfielders, where we already had sufficient numbers, instead of addressing this? It's sheer stupidity or worse, there is no excuse. Still contemplating a youth player on loan in midfield though, what the hell? If we don't sign a single defender, I say this window has been a disaster.

There was a foul Scholes made earlier than that that he should DEFINITELY have been booked for at least.

Can't agree- that goal was offside and never crossed the line, and those are the linesman's job to spot, but there was also a foul or two, and a handball, and the ref didn't spot those either. Whoever was responsible, that is the single most illegal goal I ever saw.

Odd logic. Alternative scenario for you- we start him, he bottles it and plays crap, his Rovers career never takes off, Kean gets slated. You have to be careful introducing new, and young, players. Just because he's looked good in the ressies does not make him our new messiah. Starting him (probably on his own up front, too) would be madness.

That's happened to numerous players over the years. The way I recall it, what made that particular one so ludicrous was that if anything, Berg was fouled by Sharp. Or at least that it was a 50-50. All time Rovers refereeing cockup for me is -that- West Ham goal that never was. I forget the year. But disallowable on about 5 or 6 counts, yet both the ref and linesman missed them all. What are the odds?

In light of today's sad news, I'm wondering if there is any chance that anybody has got any footage from the days of Ronnie Clayton? I know it's a bit unlikely, but it's an era of the club I'd love to see a glimpse of.

I actually hope they're not, as then it would be incorrect. If true, a terrible day for the club. My sincere condolences to his family and friends- the only solace I can offer is that he will live on forever in the club's memory.

If Benni is still having work permit problems, then sod it, someone tell him I'll marry the bugger!!! I appreciate his contributions at times, and what he can bring to our team, but it sounds like we have a fair price for a vastly unhappy, disruptive slouch, and we should do everything we can to ensure we receive that money. On the proviso that we actually replace him. I don't want to see us with ONLY Kalinic and Roberts as forwards we own in the summer (I certainly don't count Diouf or Hoilett as adequate in that position).

Why are you assuming a replacement hasn't been lined up?