Herbie6590
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Posts posted by Herbie6590
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Just now, JHRover said:
That's what I was referring to. A £3 million increase in 'one off charges' to Venkys London Limited. I think the question needs raising with Cheston at the shareholders meeting in July.
Why ? Group companies move around cash all the time & charge inter company fees for services provided. It’s really not at all unusual. Ultimately Venky’s own both companies, they’re just moving money around their own business ?♂️
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Looks like some kind of “management fee” or similar...nothing sinister IMHO
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Just now, Herbie6590 said:
Jim - where are those Op Ex numbers from....struggling to find them if you can help....??
Forget it....found ‘em ?
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1 hour ago, jim mk2 said:
To sum up, cost of promotion black to Championship has been high.
Figures from Club’s Director’s Report filed at Companies House for the year ending June 2018 show :
Turnover has reduced by nearly 6 million pounds, from £14.9 Million in 2017, to £9.0 Million in 2018.
Match day income reduced by £0.5 Million (2017 was £3.3M, 2018 was £2.8M).
Media income reduced by £4.8 Million (2017 - £6.7M, 2018 - £1.9M).
Commercial and other income reduced by £0.6 Million (2017 - £4.9M, 2018 - £4.3 M).
Operating expenses increased to £8.9 million, up from £5.9 million in 2017.
However, there was a reduction in wages and salaries of £5.2 million (2017 - £22M, 2018 - £16.8M).
This has resulted in a pre tax loss of £16.8 Million, compared to just £3.8 Million the previous year, with the wage turnover ratio now 186.7%.
The club’s net liabilities are now just under £125 million, up from just under £109 million the previous year, with the amount due to the parent company (Venky’s) at a massive £108.76 million.
Jim - where are those Op Ex numbers from....struggling to find them if you can help....??
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46 minutes ago, JHRover said:
I noticed this when flicking through the shareholder accounts the other day. Can someone explain what this is? It seems to read to me in the accounts as though Cheston says this £3 million was largely down to payments to the parent company (or something of the sort). Certainly seems like a massive increase and reads as though that cash has gone to VLL or the owners in some form.
I’m not recognising the numbers that are quoted....if someone can point me to the section in the accounts I’ll have a go...
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42 minutes ago, tomphil said:
Player sales form part of the overall income as you say and that reduces debt and there was a large cashing in of assets a few years ago that no doubt helped massively to reduce that.
Theoretically at any point in time say preseason for arguments sake they could pay off the overdraft or other external debts to give us a clean slate but they don't because that would cock up the accounting process. Probably standard practise at many clubs but imo next time that overdraft is stretching to the limit and the bank are getting tetchy players will be sold to reduce it in the short term and Venkys won't plug in say 5 million as a one of to cover it.
People seem to portray it as if the club has no income of its own and they just pay for everything - I say that every season. We are reliant on them but that's mainly because of the model they run i.e run it cack handed run up continuing losses on one hand whilst trying to reduce them with the other, the club is stuck inbetween this scenario and has to pay a slice of it itself whilst yes the owners cover the rest but it doesn't make it right.
The overdraft is just £11m & that will largely be to ensure payments go through the bank a/c smoothly.
The rest of the debt is intra-Group so there’s nothing to pay off. They borrow it from themselves. The club runs at a loss. Unless someone covers those losses we go bust. Venky’s are subsidising Blackburn Rovers to the tune of £336k net per week.
A new owner would have to cut costs by that amount, stump up the same subsidy or increase turnover by that amount to keep us in business.
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Just now, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:
It's a complete madhouse.
Why would anyone literally piss away a quarter of a Billion pounds,what is the motive?
What do the Raos get back out of owning us...is it all basically down to vanity and merely the fact that they like to show the world they can blow that sort of coin?
10 years under their tenure and still so many unanswered questions.
I agree, I didn’t understand their motives on Day 1 & nothing that has happened subsequently has shed any light on this. One thing is certain, it’s been an expensive hobby...
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Just now, JHRover said:
They aren't shares in the club, they are shares in Venkys London Limited. So surely VLL can sell the shares in Blackburn Rovers Ltd for whatever price they decide?
To all intents & purposes, they are the same thing, VLL is essentially just a holding company.
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Just now, blueboy3333 said:
if someone buys the club they'll have to buy those shares, no? Or will that be a gift from Venky's?
Correct. The shareholding is what is sold...at an agreed price...which is based on the value perceived by the buyer.
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Just now, tomphil said:
They wanted the club for publicity but the first plans went awry but now annually they are publicised as wealthy generous benefactors propping the club up, i'm sure that does them no harm in certain quarters.
Every time we are on SKY it gets rammed down the throats several times per match, 'Venkys keep pumping in x million, badly advised etc etc'
Not exactly bad publicity is it.
If I was Venkys head of marketing I doubt that I would ever have suggested what they have done as being a positive way of improving their profile TBH.
What they haven’t done (yet...) at least is walk away. But common sense suggests that there must come a point where they say enough is enough. The acid test of their integrity is what form that might take....orderly or anarchic ?
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Just now, tomphil said:
No doubt helped by income from player sales they don't appear to pump money in to reduce external debt the club seems to have to fund that itself.
This is not so, interest payable to the bank is clearly dependent upon borrowings. You reduce the borrowings, you reduce the amount of interest payable. Interest payable has reduced dramatically (roughly two thirds) so in a stable interest rate environment, average borrowings must have reduced similarly.
Venkys have reduced external debt & funded more themselves interest free, that’s why the bill has reduced.
Funds from player sales are part of income. They are shown in the accounts.
Venkys fund our losses from their funds, I’m not quite sure how you arrive at the conclusion that they “don’t appear to pump money in to reduce external debt” when the numbers point to exactly the opposite ?
BTW, I say this every time the accounts are updated...I am no Venkys apologist but if we are going to criticise them, let’s do it based on facts because it makes for a valid argument.
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2 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:
I was just asking for the detail? How does this work across different countries with different tax rules?
The short answer is it depends....which countries, what tax legislation & cooperation agreements are in place & to a lesser extent how good their accountants are. Simplistically, subsidiaries making losses offset those losses to reduce the parent company tax bill.
This is normal practice for multi national companies and is why accountancy firms have teams dedicated to optimising this for their clients...at a price.
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Just now, MCMC1875 said:
#VenkysOut
Who in ?
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45 minutes ago, tomphil said:
It's an accounting tool the figures will always make for uncomfortable reading whilst they own it but it'll never damage them whilst they are raking it in elsewhere in their empire but the club itself will never prosper. I wish people would wake up to this, it's a handy oversees loss making entity to have on the books that one day might return millions if needed but it doesn't really matter in the meantime.
Sadly as pointed out run that way the club LIKE MANY OTHERS is reliant on ownership funding to compete at this level, oh and the BOI who seem to be doing alright out of it as well....
Interest paid has reduced by two thirds in the last two years from £1.5m to £400k reflecting reduced dependency on external borrowing
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18 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:
You might be right. What are the tax rules around loss-making in another country and how does this correlate with what Venky's are doing at Rovers?
They will be able to offset Rovers losses against tax.
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If having a break recharges the batteries then I’m all in favour. We will only know the effects when they all return. I’m not sure that Theory X management works with the modern day footballer TBH. Look at Mourinho v Solskjaer. It’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t I think. We have a squad that is serially under performing, breaking the routine might just be what’s needed.
it reminds me of clubs who cancel Christmas parties after a bad result, I always think that symbolises a “token gesture to appease the fans’ approach...if I was on the receiving end of that kind of management I’d think the guy had lost the plot...?♂️
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1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:
These are the worst team we played so far this season. Interesting to see how they perform now under Bruce.
They have improved under Bruce....the locals are getting chippy again...current form table is er....”interesting”...
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8 hours ago, Stuart said:
The matchday announcer (the annoying one) say Ma-glore. I’ve always thought it was Ma-gloyer.
In Ep 108 of our podcasts (which I’m sure everyone listens to...you do listen...don’t you...?) Rich Sharpe pronounced it Ma-glore & then went on to predict a promising future for the lad....amongst others...
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1 hour ago, S8 & Blue said:
I can’t stand Wednesday.
Deludedly “massive” having done nothing for years, and lots of my friends are fans.
I want my friends to be sad.
Visitors should go down Kelham Island/Neepsend and get the tram up. The area is widely regarded as one of the best for “proper” alehouses in the country. The Fat Cat is my favourite.
A bit closer to the ground (ten minute walk away) is The New Barrack Tavern. Love it here: good food - loads of beers and football focused. Full of friendly Wednesdayites pre-match so don’t be a dick.
The Dinnerlady has shored their team up recently, but every unbeaten run must come to an end...
With the confidence from last night I really think we can beat them.
They really aren’t that good.
Same team as Wigan?
Commence arguing.
Train travellers should check out the Sheffield Tap on platform 1 & the Rawson Spring (despite being a Spoons) near the ground is usually full of home & away football fans.
Endorse the Kelham Island love as well for the real ale enthusiasts...
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8 hours ago, JacknOry said:
Jammy git.
So what was the correct answer?
The podcast is worth a listen ?
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8 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:
Listened this morning on my walk to work. A really great interview. Not to give the interviewer a big head, but you have a very nice style. My only complaint is that it was a bit short. I could have listened for an hour. Particularly more on the play off defeats, how a great season can end in heartbreak, how do you motivate players to bounce back from that etc Also a bit more on our current players, who he likes and why. You did touch on it with Graham a bit near the end.
He came across as a very nice man, but you could tell he was no push over either. I suppose he did work as Sounesses assistant
Great listen
The interviewer's head is remaining regulation size (i.e. not Hanley-esque) but thanks you for your kind words...?
I didn't want to take up too much of his time TBH, Don was lovely & accommodating, I thought we had covered sufficient ground to make it compelling but without taking up loads of his time.
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STEVE ARCHIBALD LOVES US ?
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Venkys London Ltd accounts
in Blackburn Rovers Fans Messageboard
Posted
It’s not inconceivable; it’s often used when a parent company buys a service on behalf of the group & cross charges the subsidiary. It’s not material in the great scheme of things.