[Archived] Climate Change

[Steve Moss]

That article isn’t about the Obama administration lying about climate change. It’s, in the words of congress, about it attempting to “terminate research programs that could divert funds from the president’s Climate Action Plan”.

The dishonest way in which the administration went about it is obviously reprehensible. But to be honest I don’t really understand why it resorted to those tactics to begin with. Doesn’t the government have the power to just cancel research programs, however long-running? New governments seem to cancel or reverse policies or projects started by previous governments all the time.

In any case I do disagree with the directional change they were going for anyway. Terminating research to make non-renewables safer in order to fund renewables really lacks balance in my opinion. I’m a big believer that we’re destroying the planet and should be trying whenever practical to reduce emissions. But a headlong rush to renewables at the expense of all else just won’t work in my opinion. Energy demand will continue to sky rocket alongside global population, we need to be realistic about meeting that demand.

Agreed. The point was: 1) Congress decides where money is to be spent, not the President; and, 2) The President (or his stooges) fired a scientist for sharing too much information with Congress- one of the many indicators that science is being politicized.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Agreed. The point was: 1) Congress decides where money is to be spent, not the President; and, 2) The President (or his stooges) fired a scientist for sharing too much information with Congress- one of the many indicators that science is being politicized.

On 1), does it? I don’t know much about how it works in the US but I thought Congress was basically the Senate and the Senate was basically like our House of Commons, where MPs from all different parties vote on things but the government almost always has a majority and therefore in effect the government decides things (like what money is being spent on).

Totally agree with you on 2). It’s up to Obama’s administration to make a convincing enough case for how climate change is approached without doing the equivalent of tampering with the evidence. One of the core principles of science is the scientific method, it’s the reason it can be so closely associated with truth. That should never be corrupted for political gain and good on Dr. Metting for sticking to her principles, hopefully Trump reinstates her!

[Baz]

Oil free would be wonderful in many respects. I've looked seriously at the Nissan Leaf but can't help feel there is a long way to go before oil free electric cars are an everyday model. Battery range of 155 miles could be quite limiting.

That and recharge time. Besides batteries recharged from a grid of coal power stations are just shifting the problem.

Hybrids are the best current bet, but expensive.

We need to go for renewable and also nuclear - just don't understand why our government is tendering out the cost to Chinese and French contractors.

[Steve Moss]

On 1), does it? I don’t know much about how it works in the US but I thought Congress was basically the Senate and the Senate was basically like our House of Commons, where MPs from all different parties vote on things but the government almost always has a majority and therefore in effect the government decides things (like what money is being spent on).

Congress is the House of Representatives and the Senate. Legislation has to pass both chambers to become law.

Congress (our legislature) decides on what programs are funded and how much to each program. This is sometimes called the power of the purse. The President (the executive branch) then follows through (executes) the Congressional spending plans. In recent decades, the executive branch has been undermining the legislative branch's power and spending directions. The article is just the most recent posted. Reagan did it (Iran-Contra) and Obama did it (and does it). Strong presidents can get away with it if they can subvert some key players on one or both chambers (only one is needed though) as they can gum up the works in holding the President accountable.

In earlier decades the House and Senate were jealous of their prerogatives and would unify to push back against an overreaching President. Now we are far more ideological and the "cause" (whatever that may be) matters far more than the balance of powers developed by the Founders. This has contributed to the rise of the "Imperial" Presidency.

[philipl]

[Husky]

One thing that makes me slightly sceptical about climate change is the old 'superlative + since + date' line.

For example - "It's been the coldest winter since 1955".

Indicating clearly that the weather was worse at some stage in the (recent) past? So there's always been climate change? Right?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

One thing that makes me slightly sceptical about climate change is the old 'superlative + since + date' line.

For example - "It's been the coldest winter since 1955".

Indicating clearly that the weather was worse at some stage in the (recent) past? So there's always been climate change? Right?

The thing about climate change is it's the result of a phenomenally complex system. Basically a chaotic system were there are vast numbers of variables that can each produce a vast array of consequences.

With such a system, everything has to be statistical and work on probabilities. This leads to messy results and only trends mean anything. There will have been a past precedence for any current individual stat.

But precedences for the current trend, particularly of such rapid carbon and temperature increase, are much harder to come by. I'm no geologist but I'm sure you can still find them if you go back far enough into the earth's history. However the further back you have to go, the less likely the current trend is naturally occuring.

[philipl]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-climate-change-science-denial-global-warming-630-major-companies-put-american-a7519626.html

630 American firms (including several giants) urge Trump to take climate change seriously.

[yoda]

The key to solar is battery technology.

This is beginning to advance at the speed photo voltaic technology did ten years ago.

Obviously everyone is looking at Elon Musk's factory in the desert but there are fascinating developments emerging in China in particular.

Seeing as America might be withdrawing from the rest of the world, the Chinese could astonishingly emerge as climate change champions- it is going to be a matter of existential survival for the Chinese Communist Party given the fogs they are currently experiencing.

The biggest cost in the home (especially in Europe) re energy is central heating and hot water.

The Chinese are world leaders in evacuated tubes for hot water systems, especially a company called Sunrain.

More people should install these types of systems in the home.

[philipl]

Agreed- most methods of propulsion and heating are incredibly wasteful of the joules in the original energy source in converting it into power delivered.

The advantage of evacuated tubes is that they manage to run at higher temperatures (I have seen 8 degrees C) when it is sunny and they retain their heat far longer which is helpful in rainy/cloudy climates and for residual generation during the night.

These sorts of gains and also kinetic energy converters are also going to have a massive impact in reducing demand for hydrocarbons.

Incidentally, just seen a report on Iraq- the economic impact of them adhering to the new OPEC quotas is huge- the anticipated price gain nowhere near compensates the volume of production foregone. If that pattern is evident in other countries the OPEC agreement won't stick but for the time being the raised oil price will help spur alternatives.

[koi]

If it's true or not surely we should be doing anything we can to improve the environment for all our benefits?

[jim mk2]

Global temperatures in 2016 broke record again for a third year in a row. Even the Orange Hair idiot's EPA nominee has conceded that climate change is no hoax. And the right wing is still in denial.

[Al]

Not many argue that the planet is getting a bit warmer. It's the cause that is up for debate.

[philipl]

Not many argue that the planet is getting a bit warmer. It's the cause that is up for debate.

Nor do they argue that by getting warmer, all kinds of horrible things are going to happen

Nor is anyone arguing that Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere is the highest it has been for hundreds of millions of years

Nor does anybody dispute the science of the aerosol effect of CO2 trapping heat

Nor does anyone dispute that there are effective ways of reducing CO2 emissions.

So all we have to agree on is to do something about it which we have done in Paris and Helsinki. Not enough yet but its a good start.

How we get to the Paris targets is a moot point but I suspect that by five years from now, consumption of hydrocarbons will be plummeting because the price of alternatives is making coal and oil uneconomic to use.

Hopefully those who are ignorant of basic science or who just want to make a quick buck because they are old and don't give a toss about their grandkids (Trump, 70) will find themselves totally irrelevant because the technology bi-passed their specious venal posturing.

[yoda]

Nor do they argue that by getting warmer, all kinds of horrible things are going to happen

Nor is anyone arguing that Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere is the highest it has been for hundreds of millions of years

Nor does anybody dispute the science of the aerosol effect of CO2 trapping heat

Nor does anyone dispute that there are effective ways of reducing CO2 emissions.

So all we have to agree on is to do something about it which we have done in Paris and Helsinki. Not enough yet but its a good start.

How we get to the Paris targets is a moot point but I suspect that by five years from now, consumption of hydrocarbons will be plummeting because the price of alternatives is making coal and oil uneconomic to use.

Hopefully those who are ignorant of basic science or who just want to make a quick buck because they are old and don't give a toss about their grandkids (Trump, 70) will find themselves totally irrelevant because the technology bi-passed their specious venal posturing.

Stop flying around the EU on the gravy train then

[Steve Moss]

Global temperatures in 2016 broke record again for a third year in a row. Even the Orange Hair idiot's EPA nominee has conceded that climate change is no hoax. And the right wing is still in denial.

Really? And exactly what was the increase? And what is the margin of error? If you don't know, let me help you:

"For the benefit of science reporters and other people who are unfamiliar with the scientific method, let me point out that the margin of error for these measurements is plus or minus one tenth of a degree Celsius. The temperature difference that is supposedly being measured is one one-hundredth of a degree—one tenth the size of the margin of error. To go back to sports reporting, that’s like saying that the football is on the 10-yard line—give or take a hundred yards."

http://thefederalist.com/2017/01/18/nyt-hid-numbers-hottest-year-record/#.WH_Uwyn2WqM.twitter

[philipl]

Stop flying around the EU on the gravy train then

So you go nowhere do nothing stay at home in your own little bubble and generally fail in life?

[yoda]

So you go nowhere do nothing stay at home in your own little bubble and generally fail in life?

Ha ha Ha,

Live in Ribbe Valley, properties in France and China all paid for, own business.

You were the one whinging about climate change

If that is failure to you, you must be one of the 1% er's that not pulling their weight

[philipl]

You got that kick back because you are always make ridiculous and unfounded assumptions. It is 25 years since any business I was involved in received any funding from the EU and that was for collaborative ground breaking research and innovation involving my company, two non-UK companies and four Universities spread across the EU.

Just the sort of thing Brexiters want Britain not to be part of....

[Paul]

Ha ha Ha,

Live in Ribbe Valley, properties in France and China all paid for, own business.

You were the one whinging about climate change

If that is failure to you, you must be one of the 1% er's that not pulling their weight

Hang on. As this is the case, and I don't begrudge it at all, doesn't this make you as divorced from the reality of Blackburn life as any of us who get criticised for living in a leafy idyll or sunny island.

[yoda]

Hang on. As this is the case, and I don't begrudge it at all, doesn't this make you as divorced from the reality of Blackburn life as any of us who get criticised for living in a leafy idyll or sunny island.

I purposely moved out of Blackburn years ago.

That does not mean I don't go into the town though and frequent the cash and carry's every week including the large Asian owned one that I have frequented for the last 30 years.

Funny but I cannot remember ever critisising the place you live in.

I have critisised Philipl and his derision of the area and country while spending the majority of his time in sunny Malta, the same applying to Jim, who also lives in the RV by the way.

I think I am well placed to see the negative effect that past Government policies have had on the town that I called home.

[Steve Moss]

On 12/23/2016 at 10:09 AM, philipl said:

Too bad a whistleblower is now claiming the data relied upon is unreliable.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4216180/How-trust-global-warming-scientists-asks-David-Rose.html

[Steve Moss]

Climate change via rising temperatures misstated by a factor of 2. 

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/21/climate-models-are-warming-earth-two-times-faster-than-reality/