58 minutes ago, Crimpshrine said:

It's been a very interesting thread - well done to Herbie and PLJPB for enlightening us all.

If we had owners that we could trust and communicate with, there would be no need for us to worry.

If the Venky's investment is £130 rather than £250 then that is less than £20m per year. A drop in the ocean in corporate Venkyland and probably less than the club's income from other sources. 

Given that the losses and outgoings are not itemised for us to see, I would not be surprised if the £130m is not offset by some of the incoming transfer profits and TV money. Maybe they have actually spent very little at all!

Venky's admit they bought Rovers as an advertising vehicle for their company. They have no interest in football or Blackburn or the fans. Why would they keep throwing money at a failed venture?

Maybe we can't use the term 'stripping' but the assets Rovers had in 2010 have all but gone and the money has not been reinvested.   What does the future hold now that we can't top up the coffers with money from player sales?   

It is certainly , with very interesting and now that the cat is out of the bag, with regards to now much they have really put in perhaps more fans than ever can now see the bigger picture. Are they naïve investors, who have been taken for a ride, or are they clever manipulative people, who sized an opportunity?

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Well he did get crucified here! 

Its a pity he can't play every Easter Sunday, as he normally rises to the occasion.

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

On late lunch here watching sky sports in a cafe, jesus Lowe is being released by Birmingham alright 

I thought his first name was Jason?  

Tumbling out of the premier league is seen as a financial disaster and when a club is heading that way, understandably you more often that not, see a change of manager. Even Leicester did the unthinkable and sacked Ranieri, the season after he completed, what was probably the biggest miracle ever in English football. Venkys surely knew of the consequences of this happening, but gladly sat back, whilst Kean took us from the top half to a last game shoot out in the first year and completed the job in the second year. This was with a complete novice, who they were paying ridiculous sums of money. Even after the relegation he survived and was never sacked he resigned. Given how much he cost the club, why was this allowed to happen?

Just as a reminder, Premier league money and parachute money since Venkys arrived has been in the region of £130 Million. Sales of Phil Jones, Samba, Nzonzi and Gael Givet alone total £38 Million too.

Just now, JHRover said:

It really does take some getting your head around, when you factor in how much money has come into the club since they arrived.

They came in mid-way through the 2010-11 season. Took the club on for an absolute bargain with minimal external debt. Despite best efforts to end our stay in the top league at the first attempt through swinging a wrecking ball at the squad and employing Kean as manager they still benefitted from a further 18 months of Premier League income during which time they also sold Phil Jones for a huge sum, along with a few others (Samba?) for multi-million fees. Despite the dodgy dealings at that time all those coming in amounted to less than fees received.

Then they had 4 years worth of parachute money to get through, and as soon as that money dried up embarked on a selling spree during which they received in excess of £30 million through player sales which was way more than any fees going out in the opposite direction on players. Also between 2013 and 2018 the sum total of transfer fees paid out must come to about 3 or 4 million at the very most. Conway, Cairney, Gestede, Evans, Marshall, Steele - maybe a couple of million together at most - Williams, Dack, Samuel - another 1 million on top. Spread over 5 years that is a small outlay on fees for any club in the 2nd division (with the exception of bankrupt Bolton and maybe Ipswich I can't think of another club that has been in the Championship for 4+ of the last 5 or 6 years and spent less on players than that.

Yet despite all those sales and despite 2 years of an embargo and minimal spending on players we're still supposedly haemorrhaging money every year.

18 months of Premier League cash, 4 years of parachute money, £50 million+ of player sales, 2 years of an embargo and minimal spending on anything else since then and yet they've lost £250 million? That certainly doesn't add up to me.

Nicely summed up that and I agree with all of that. Don't forget the bonus in one manager's contract, based on league one seasons. What foresight that was!

42 minutes ago, RoverCanada said:

You mentioned in a previous that the sums had been done before and there's ultimately some unexplained hole somewhere in the accounts. Could you point me to the analysis you're referring to?

I think you may be referring to this.  The big hole is there for us all to see. None stranger than those signed by us and nearly all had the same agent, who of course worked for free, slept at the training ground and had the place rocking so much, it nearly fell over!!!

As you will note their is no mention of unexplained hole in the accounts. What I meant by the hole was that Agents had "earned" a lot of money from players transactions, both in an out. As you will see from the link below, it looks like some of this was excessive. Also cast your mind back to Ruben Rochina and the fee paid for him and the commission paid. That money paid out, has created a hole in the finances of the club, as this money could have been spent in a better way. imagine for example if Mowbray was suddenly given the £3.5 million, mentioned below, to spend this summer.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/blackburn-rovers/10290996/Blackburn-Rovers-were-biggest-spenders-on-agents-fees-in-the-Championship-last-season-despite-underperforming.html

8 minutes ago, tomphil said:

A lot of money went Portugal way for some strange reason and all this was under a family trusted friend of a global nature so you have to wonder who signed it al off and why.

Did someone owe someone else a lot of money and had to find an indirect way of paying it or was another arm of the business being set up and funded over there by indirect means ?

End of the day as long as the bills get paid and the money is clean a lot will say 'who cares' and that's fair enough but it grates that people think they've just poured a few hundred million into a hole and continue to do so for no good reason in the long term.

Then again if a few million sticks to the sides again this summer for TM.... who cares ?

He was certainly on good money for being a Billy smart type of Character, you know what I mean Robbie?  ;-)

2 hours ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

I am sure a large rake off went to partners(joint owners?)...Do we think other partners merely allow their accomplices to keep all of this...or would there be some kind of split..?

Great post and of course these players were collectively known, as the five musca Eusebios, as the motto on signing them was all for one and one for all.

At the risk of going over old ground, given the last few posts, you have to wonder, where the £200 million plus went for starters. This was Premier league money for 2010/11 premier league money for 2011/12 parachute money for the following 4 years and then the players that were sold for big money, Phil Jones and Chris Samba, just being two examples. I am not having a go, because he is a Claret, but Sympathetic Claret, naively states it went on, manager pay offs, agents, players wages ETC. Yes of course it did, but the big question is, who really benefited from most of this?

We have never got to the bottom of it and never will, as there have been some fantastic efforts to bring some of this skulduggery out into the open. Despite last years success, I cannot accept and never will accept that Venkys, were not complicit in at least some of this. I love Blackburn Rovers as much as anyone, but I will NEVER feel comfortable under the current ownership.

17 hours ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

But agents were/are partners in running the club. Also a large slice of player wages, signing on fees-and indeed managerial pay offs-went to said partners.

To think I once wondered why there were so many strange signings

The big hole is there for us all to see. None stranger than those signed by us and nearly all had the same agent, who of course worked for free, slept at the training ground and had the place rocking so much, it nearly fell over!!!

18 hours ago, Raya4espania said:

Its also questionable as to whether Venkys put anything in. Why does the debt keep going up? Is it their money, or just borrowed cash from the bank of India? In all the years they've owned Rovers, very little put in has come from their own fortune.

The sums have been done before and when you look at the money brought in on big player sales, premier league money and parachute money for 4 years, there is a big hole somewhere.

6 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I'm still not entirely comfortable with it being the manager of the team who has to fly around the world to 'humbly' request funding from the owners to improve the squad following promotion.

It goes without saying that investment of some sort is required if we are to survive, even if that is just additional wages to bring in loans and free agents along Championship lines rather than League One.

Things are done in reverse at this club. It isn't really the manager's place in a club these days to go cap in hand to try to persuade the owners to invest money. The owners and their advisors should already have a budget and plan moving forward, this plan should remain regardless of who the manager is or how 'humble' he is in his meetings with them.

I do worry that perhaps our entire short to medium term future hinges on how Mowbray comes across in his meetings with them. If he impresses them and they like what he says then some money should be made available but if they aren't convinced then we're knackered.

Venkys should have a plan and a target and they should work to that with the manager, an employee, tasked with delivering targets from that. Nothing wrong with face to face meetings with the manager but it seems each year he doesn't have the foggiest idea until he gets to sit down and talk to them.

Their recent statement could have mentioned something about their plans, unless it wasn't really them, who made it.

Just now, S8 & Blue said:

If we have 5-10 million to spend, or more, or nothing at all - it won’t be announced. It better not be anyway.

Never reveal your budget, and if you do - lie.

I fully agree. It was hypothetical, so lets say one of our posters says, " I have it in good faith".

Just now, Stuart said:

What benefit is there to Venkys of a mid table Championship finish though?

We need Mowbray to return with either the funds to mount a promotion challenge, or a five year plan to do so more slowly.

I guess you answer this question yourself. Whilst we are in the Championship and finish perhaps, mid table, it gives us a platform for mounting a promotion challenge. I am not suggesting we stay there as I have stated, another promotion in 2 - 5 years would do. The other key thing of course, is we are ripe for a purchase, at this level, for anyone, who wants to take a punt on the famous Blackburn Rovers and take us to the big time again.

I think we would all accept it right now, if it was announced that Mowbray had been to India been promised between £5 - £10 million, plus funds from any sales, if there are any, to build a squad capable of competing in the Championship. I can't see us getting too near a promotion or play off spot, but would be happy to stay well clear of relegation and would take a Millwall or Sheff UTD right now. Yes I would love another promotion, but that can happen for me, in the next 2- 5 years and I would be prepared for the owners to ensure that we don't go bust or be relegated again, for now.

13 minutes ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

Let's give 'Madame' some credit here....she did quite abundantly and with great pride and aplomb claim to know more about Cricket than Football,we were forewarned so fair play to the top Lass on that one.

A second or so after the great announcement the fookin Sky fell in and the doors of Hades opened for most Rovers fans with a collective cry of Oh Shyte!!

I digress.

 

Owzatt?

5 minutes ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

I find that truly astonishing,£250 Million for the sum total of abject failure?

They remain the Bull in the China Shop,the crux of our problems.

The bad feelings and resentment return with vengeance when I read things like this..and I don't like it one bit.

 

 

I truly believe that it is important not to forget. Yes as fans we now see the club moving forward again and hope we don't slide back again. These people though are responsible for what has happened to the club and one successful year in the third tier, does not suddenly put it all right. That figure of £250 million to take us to the third tier and back, is astonishing and is akin to Wolves going down this year, instead of up. It simply can't happen without something sinister going on.

12 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I've always found it odd how in the immediate aftermath of the takeover and during the Kean days all of the Venky clan were easily accessible, particularly to our friends at Sky Sports. Not just the chuckle brothers from the moment they were paraded on the pitch at Ewood before the Villa game but also Madame who provided numerous interviews and was on hand to provide her opinion on all things Rovers even though she had previously admitted not understanding the game.

Then the shutters came down and it is rare for even the manager or staff of the club to get chance to speak to her, only happening face to face once a year at her behest in India. Probably more difficult to speak to her without an invite than the Queen.

Curious how for such supposedly private people someone managed to persuade Madame to find space in her diary to provide interviews and how when things went horrifically wrong that she suddenly becomes an intensely private and busy person who can no longer speak.

 

Yeah they even went as far fans as inviting fans over to meet them, to show how honest, open and accessible, they were . I wonder whose idea that was?

Just now, perthblue02 said:

Yes she was quite an expert wasn't she , strange that she has been quiet since the tiff with her script writer and just like family member the Bard of Barnet

Yes she obviously new her stuff She did put a statement out last week though remember, along with, some other people, described as the owners. Some people have wondered if this statement was all their own work, as it was pretty good!!!

Just now, tomphil said:

I wonder if there was ever any connection between the Global Adviser and the eleven, always thought it was an odd name for Madame to suddenly just conjure out of thin air

Thank goodness we didn't have eleven global advisers. Don't forget though Madame knew enough about football to sack a manager for playing the dull none entertaining type.

Just now, Herbie6590 said:

They had no choice but to put money in else we would have been insolvent & players might not be keen to play if they’re not getting wages.  The interesting thing for me is how they fund it. Share capital implies permanence, bank lending less so, parent loans more so (but not as good as shares).

As has already been mentioned, £250m is a lot of money to throw away. It is all well and good underwriting it to ensure the club remained solvent, but why carry it on to that level. It is almost as though, someone else was pulling the strings. It reminds me a bit of That president in that far away country paying someone a chuck of money to keep certain stories out of the headlines. This could have got all Stormy, I am glad I had a Jack Daniels to help me forget.

Just now, Herbie6590 said:

...&  that will have contributed to a loss in the P&L which V’s will have to have funded either by increased share capital or loans.

Any agent fee had a similar impact on the P&L of BRFC. So not Myles away...?

So Venkys simply funded lots of OTT signings in the first few years and increased the share capital, or loans. I wonder why they did that? Our first eleven weren't always a global eleven really, were they?

40 minutes ago, tomphil said:

And all i'm saying is what has it been spent on, where has it all gone and where and what sources does it actually come from ?

All perfectly understandable questions for something that's a public (& audited) fact.

And they do wash kits at Ewood don't they ?

I know one "player" who trousered a chunk and he was better at washing kits than playing football. That signing could have been a simple mistake, but I don't think I''m Myles away thinking otherwise.

15 minutes ago, tomphil said:

I'm not having it they've spewed 250 million on their Rovers venture without having a large whack back somewhere along the line, no way.

No wonder some people think it's a launderette.

It certainly doesn't make any sense, that's for sure.