Indeed a month or so ago I thought we would be fine. Stumbling along in mid table with enough occasional wins to see us safe. Problem is if all the other teams up their game - and it certainly looks like Hudds and Stoke have - will such an ambling approach be enough? Bare in mind last time we went down with a very high points total and if certain teams continue to pick up we could be in the same situation. Also massively agree with us throwing away points by conversing stupid goals. It's not just that that's throwing away points though - nuts substitutions and line ups are costing us and limiting the amount of time we are on top in games. This too is massively costing us points. What makes this even more incredible is by and large we have a mid table to top 10 squad imo. We are only a good striker, centre half and keeper away from that (barring injuries) yet we are very nervously looking downwards.

Think this is very possible - mainly because we will slowly slip into said position at this rate. Under Clueless from the start it was obvious we were struggling. This season I feel it will be a slow sink, or like a dingy slowly drifting out to sea, we won't realise we are in trouble till it is too late. A point here and there, the odd win, but if other teams similarly pick up their act, we could be in a world of trouble.

That'll help him focus...

I thought this too but this doesn't make tons of sense, even though I think that's their reasoning too. I say this because 1) the most we have sold a player for under Venkys was Jones - a defender. And 2) With van Dijk, Maguire etc going for big bucks in the last year or two we can see this happens for defenders too. So it doesn't make tons of sense.

Really? Dropping for a medicore right midfielder who has generally been poor this season? Do you really think that is a good decision. If Nayambe had been dropped for a better right back that would have been one thing, would have felt sorry for the lad but that's how it goes, but a subpar right midfielder? Also deserved dropping - more than Mulgrew, Smallwood, Gally or Armstrong in their terrible runs. All these players played much worse for much longer than Nayambe so he seems to have been judged against a completely unfair different standard. (My point isn't these weren't dropped eventually but how many bad games they had before they did - significantly more than Nayambe.) He also had to force his way past Paul Caddis, despite Nayambe already being here. No wonder he is hacked off. There is no debate as to whether we would use the money the same way whatsoever! What possible posutive debatable merits are there on spending £12 mill on two none scoring strikers, one of whom isn't even championship standard? Everyone would have brought defenders or strikers with a proven record of scoring in this division. I'll grant you I can kind of see where the Gally signing comes from, albeit it is working out badly, but Bereton? On what level was £7 million on a totally unproven striker at this level a good idea? Not debatable at all imo as that suggests there are some arguable merits to buying Bereton.

Not sure it was unlucky at all. Lenihen has been injured every season for lengthy spells, and if it was any one of the city lad, Williams or Cunningham injured we would have been in trouble numbers wise. Similarly had Travis or Graham got injured we would also have been stuck for cover

What. A. Suprise. We were short defensively both on numbers and quality. (After our best back 4 it gets scarily bad.) We're in real trouble given suspensions and niggles will also inevitably come. Hopefully it means Nayambe's shoddy treatment is over but I suspect we will see a lot of midfielders in defence over the next few months

Quite possibly as it weakens us at centre back as well. Williams covering 2 positions we are weak in means the whole defence is paper thin. If any centre back injured then Bell has to play. That said an injury to Graham or Travis would also screw us over big time too.

So we've got Bell and Williams arguably the two worst left backs in the division. Not to mention one of them is needed as a centre back. So one left back in Bell - and by left back I am using it in the loosest sense of the word. My word it's going to be a horror show watching our defence.

Lot of options for me. From this list Houghton , Rowett and Pearson would all be worth exploring. Bit worried about how Pearson would engage with owners and how Rowett's last post has affected him but they are all options. Might be open to Adkins and championed this a year or two ago but the last few years haven't gone well for him, so perhaps not so much. Am also sure there are a ton of other good candidates out there from home and abroad, and with a decent structure in place to make the decision then we could get someone good in. I'm almost as confident though that that won't happen and we most likely will end up with another duffer.

A bit more context needed imo - if we were a club with a very small budget etc. then maybe we'd be punching above our weight and happy to be in this division. However that is not the case. We had one of the best championship squads with Marshall, Cairney, Hanley, Duffy, Gestede, Rhodes, Olsson and Cairney and King and fluffed it. We have had £15 mill to spend in the last season or two with a manager getting to rebuild and are fluffing it. We had a ton of talent amidst our 5 managers in a season and fluffed it. One thing that sticks out is we haven't got the managerial appointment right once - and that is no coincidence. No manager should be stupid enough to break up Rhodes/Gestede to play Brown - but it happened. No manager should be stupid enough to lump the ball long to Rhodes for 90 mins in a cup quarter final - but it happened. No manager should have numerous players regularly playing out of position - but it happens. Bit of a theme eh? Crap managers with no one keeping them accountable for some bat nuts decisions. No wonder we are stuffed. Even Holloway got the asylum that is Blackpool promoted. Watford change managers at the drop of a hat yet have done ok till this season. Newcastle got promoted and have somehow stayed up and got a big name manager despite some farcical decisions. Even basket case clubs can limp along and do ok but not us. So yeah I agree with you, we are stuffed because we aren't doing well when things are relatively positive and we do atrociously when things are bad. The joy of supporting Rovers.

Don't think we will get relegated as we still have a decent squad and there are a lot of poor teams in this division. In fact a lot of the squad is pretty good or at least certainly no worse than a lot of teams. We are admittedly somewhat short up front and on defensive numbers but the squad is solidly a championship level squad. In fact I'd suggest we are a rock hard centre back and good striker from being a good/strong championship team. Problem is the players and tactics are chopped and changed and there's not much rhyme or reason to said changes. Combined with our obsession of playing it along the back line it's going to limit us a lot. That said I feel we have enough in the tank to get enough points to survive. We'll raise our game and get a few points off the better teams and beat some of the average ones a la Hull and Reading to stay up.

Yes I think so, Sunderland being the prime example. They got through a ton of managers, some of whom had been good before and since their stints there, yet it never has worked out for them. All those managers can't be naff. I would add perhaps it goes in periods rather than forever - for example for quite a while I thought Sheff Utd would fall into this category as a number of managers failed to get them promoted out of league 1, but they seem to be doing alright now! So perhaps it happens in spells? But yeah, our structure is atrocious and is going to hinder any manager even if it is just a sluggishness in the transfer market and zero pressure not helping to push the manager onwards.

Agree with most of this including the example but wouldn't overall lump Grayson with TM. Grayson has 4 promotions to his name which is significantly more than TM. Seems to have faltered a bit in his last role or two mind but overall a pretty impressive CV.

Spot on. Summed up my thoughts very succinctly. Goodness we are both so promising and a mess at the same time it is untrue. Regarding why sign Gally I think TM knew he had made a stinker with Bereton and with Graham getting older knew we were seriously lacking up front. The problem is TM isn't very good in the transfer market and often relies on players he knows/obvious choices. This meant we ended up with Gally. Unfortunately the pressure of having messed up with Bereton is doubly weighing on Gally and he must be shoehorned into the team at any cost as 2 expensive flops may even get Vs questioning what is going on. Like you say though, there's zero thought to how we sign players. Even the talented ones don't fit a system/don't play. It's all very frustrating.

The real worry is who would we get instead? Am.terrified that Vs will make a worse appointment. That said I don't think TM is particularly good and he has taken us as far as he can. Speaks volumes for a manager's ability when the argument for keeping him is the owners will appoint worse. Shows he has lost the plot. The simalarities with Bowyer are huge. Albeit I think TM is a bit better tactically and a bit weaker in the transfer market. The problem is like Bowyer - a) we're throwing away a good crack at play offs with a team that should do better and b) what happens when the budget is cut/key players leave? Bowyer struggled when Gestede and Cairney went and his budget was reduced. I'm pretty sure history will repeat itself with TM. as our best players/goal threats age and leave (Mulgrew's set piece get out of jail card had already gone when his legs went, before the Wigan move, and Graham is on the wane.) Combined with a lowering of budgets - can't see them too trusting after £12 mill down the pan and we will head like we did under Bowyer. If a change was made now, before the new guy has little to work with and we're embroiled in a relegation scrap, then there is a chance that momentum can be arrested and a crack made at play offs this season or next. If we leave it too late, as per usual it could be a bumpy few years. Not sure what to go for in terms of new manager but feel looking abroad may be the answer. Unless we are to get proven track record of success & experience in this division e.g. a Warnock type, I feel the experienced manager route hasn't hugely worked. TM, Clueless and Lambert haven't pulled up trees. Similarly the young aspiring coach/manager hasn't yielded too much success with Appleton and Bowyer not doing it either. Perhaps a manager from abroad would be best as it is something we haven't tried and has seen a lot of success of late in this division - Hudds & Norwich promoted with it, Leeds did well too with it. That said with someone doing their homework well I think there are good options in the UK managerial market but the challenge is we haven't really had anyone make smart decisions on this previously. So perhaps as a managerial appointment gamble the odds may be better from abroad.

Perhaps a misunderstanding then. My caution was the first 10 games can be a significant influence on whether you do win anything. But yes there is time to improve and make playoffs and I hope this is one of the times we don't regret our average start.

Wouldn't disagree a strong finish makes a big difference too. No arguments there. But just don't think we can say the first 10 games don't matter because, as the examples I quoted showed, it can and does make a big difference. Not saying the whole picture or even that different parts of the season aren't key, just we can't dismiss our form from the first 10 games completely which is what it sounded like you were saying.

Disagree to some extent. Your form early on can make a huge difference. For example our poor/mixed form initially in League 1 cost us the title, and our good form at the beginning of last season did a lot to help stave off relegation. So yeah, the first 10 games do matter, albeit the final position is more crucial. On the evidence on the first 10 games though, we aren't going to be anything other than average, which imo is under performing.

Incidentally Stoke's last win, one of only 3 Jones has masterminded came against (according to the BBC)... Yep, you guessed it, us. Mentioned for 2 reasons. Firstly to show how badly Jones has done. And secondly it shows, or is further evidence, we are pretty clueless Vs weak opposition.

And in the Wales squad. That will teach him. Gutted by the lack of morals in football - no wonder they all think they are bullet proof.

Not sure the team needs much. An experienced keeper and a good striker, and maybe a hard as nails centre back. I think right back is a weak link but that could be improved by playing Nayambe or the City lad, and a top class centre back (for this level) would be also good - although again if played perhaps the City lad could improve there. so realistically only one defender may be possibly needed. The novel concept of a goal scoring striker would cure many ills - though TM can't spot them to save his life - whilst I still think the keeper position is not great. So not much is needed in the squad. Most of the answers, both fortunately and frustratingly, are on the bench.

But apart from that...

Focussing on the positives as am a bit depressed with the same flipping issues every game, is that Armstrong has recently improved his form, which is a much needed boost. Now if he performed like that regularly Armstrong wouldn't be at Rovers, but if he could keep the consistency for more than (by my average) 1 in 10 good games to even 1 in 2 or 3 he would be an asset and a very handy option on the right side or up front. The other positive is in isolation a decent point if disappointing not to win. I'm not too sure looking back we will be too disappointed not to win this one, it's results like Luton that kill us. Put it this way, if you beat the bottom 8 teams home and away that's 48 points, which is a significant proportion of the points needed for a good charge at playoffs. Assuming play offs needs 80 points (could be wrong on this, haven't researched it) from the other 30 games you'd only need just over a point per game. If it were 90 points the ratio still isn't poor. Granted it's not that simplistic, and upsets happen and circumstances prevent this, but I don't think this would be a totally unrealistic set of targets to aim at. Obviously you want to win every game but you hopefully get the point. Hmm not amazing at posting positively after all.

That's my point Chaddy. If we have the potential for top 6 then surely midtable is a decent job not a very good job with. Certainly not a situation to be more than happy with as we aren't fulfilling our potential. You see what i'm getting at here? TM is not doing a more than good job because we aren't where we perhaps could (realistically) be. And whilst I think TM should rightly get credit for raising those expectations, the fact we aren't fulfilling them (in or very close to play offs) should rightly lead to criticism for TM too. My personal opinion is TM is doing a decent/ok job but not a good one, as we really should have a few more points on the board and odd team selections and inability to spot a striker are costing us. But my issue was with the more than happy quote as that suggests TM and the team are doing over and above what could be expected and I think that is far from the case.