Dreams of 1995

It isn’t the case that the 600-700k went to the first team though. That cash always sat outside of the P&S rules

I disagree with this Masher I think the Vs are cold, hard business people who will not do a thing which doesn’t benefit them. There are several ‘add backs’ in P&S rules. They are basically things which sit outside the P&S calc. They are - charity contributions, women’s football, academy’s and investment infrastructure (although depreciation can be used on this) I believe the Venkys only fund the academy because it is the only “add back” which can substantially reduce their yearly contributions, through player sales, which sit in the “book” as 100% profit. They show no willing to spend on women’s football (it’s not too expensive) and community outreach / infrastructure is non existent. The only add back they actually care about is the one which benefits them

1 - hard to say. Venkys last wrote off around £20m a few seasons ago. That could have been for a variety of reasons but the consequence improved Rovers. It is likely that debt will go up but last year Venkys gifted 4.5m in share capital but we then took out less friendly debt in the form of 13m in bank overdrafts. Without seeing how Venkys plan to subside losses this year it’s difficult to answer this. Signs point to them being unwilling or unable to loan anymore though. This will become even worse on relegation, where directors loans are forbidden from offsetting P&S, which means we rely on direct goodwill or we cut more 2 - We would start seeing periodic conversions of loans (debt) to equity. This will reduce the clubs debt but show back in VLL / VHG as a loss. This is when their loss ‘becomes real’. 3 - They technically can keep it going forever. But they won’t. The parent group will have financial rules for ‘debt wipe off’ in order to show a more true picture. I don’t know what that period is for Venkys but at some point “group” has to accept a loss has happened. I also think the EFL requires them to write off after a period to show the model is not unsustainable. I don’t know those rules though but I bet they exist

It’s always been a confusing thing for me I think the reality is that we are just another part of a much larger portfolio to them. They don’t know anything about football. It is a hobby turned liability. A liability that they are happy to keep Whilst they won’t necessarily offset tax what they do is loan. Those loans then sit as an asset on the Venkys book. So all £150m they have here is book value for VH Group. They can write off those loans whenever they wish. The existence of the loans is what will drive buyers away as any sensible purchase price requires Venkys to either waive the loans or turn to equity - the buyer will never, ever want the equity option. Nor will they want to pay Venkys 150m. Nor will Venkys want an instant -150m hit on their balance sheet It is all accounting. Owning rovers doesn’t make the Venkys richer. In their group accounts, the loans are wiped out - as a group company cannot own a debt to themselves. One day the Venkys will have to waive the loans and that loss will then materialise on a group level. If you start to see Venkys wind the debt down, that is a sure fire way to know they are approaching time to leave. I don’t believe there is an appetite for them to waive the book value of the loans because they would have done it by now to improve Rovers position. The higher the loan debt, the worst our net asset position is This is why folk who keep saying Venkys pay the bills just aren’t understanding accounting. Those losses will forever remain. The only way they’d be paying it is if they actually donated the cash. By subsidising the club with loans they are basically delaying having to admit they have lost money Sounds quite apt considering this is Venkys. Proactivity is not their mantra

Masher is right on this one chaps. Remember going down this rabbit hole myself one night

Fantastic bit of detective work there M_B if I do say so myself. The art of deduction at its simplest

There has definitely been some baiting. I have to be honest and find the attempts to gloat a bit hard to take. I can't fully understand it. I don't think there are many supporters who do not agree with the end goal - to get rid of Venky's - and so any action organised by fellow fans should at least be supported, even if you decide it is not right for you to participate. It appears that some supporters have fallen in to this sort of paradox - where in one statement they will say they absolutely want rid of Venkys, and then in another cheer a perceived failure by a fan group to accelerate that end result. Social media has a lot to do with it, where fans find themselves locked in text based arguments - but unable to reason fully due to text limits - and then find themselves pushed to an extreme as all of the middle ground is eaten up with constant argument and accusation. There is just no way I could ever find myself laughing, ridiculing or cheering on the failure of a fan-led movement or organisation which goes against the Venkys. I really do not like the term "complicit" in this argument. It was wrong for some supporters to say that if you did not support the boycott you were complicit. However, I don't think it is wrong to say that celebrating a supposed failure of the boycott is in many ways helping the Venkys, Suhail and Rudy to remain in control of the narrative. Is this complicit? For those reasons above, I don't think it is the coalition who need to do some soul-searching. I think it is the fans who denigrate the coalition who do. There's a trap here - they have conflated their doubts over the efficiency of a boycott and their support for the coalitions objectives. Littered within all of the tittle tattle there were supporters who quite clearly opposed the boycott, but now started championing other forms of protests. Letter dumps to Venky HQ, red cards, sit ins after the game and the now infamous "let's fill Ewood to show investors". It is a startling sense of entitlement that one should now jump to support your idea of how to get rid of Venkys, when it has been weeks and weeks of ridicule of this idea. Although, with that said, I would support any and all action that accelerated the demise of Venkys and so if the coalition want me to make an effort to attend a certain game, I'm here for it and I really do hope that those promises of support weren't soundbites. I look forward to seeing full participation in the next round of action

I’m sorry, what? Nowhere in my post has it said that. You are doing extremely well at trying to position yourself as a victim in this discussion but that could not be further from the truth I asked a pretty pertinent and well intentioned question - why have all of your lengthy posts about division completely ignored the abuse that the coalition and boycotting fans have received, despite highlighting multiple times the abuse that boycotting fans have given? I really think that is a reasonable question. Nowhere have I put words in your mouth - I quote you directly!! You may want to twist this in to a perverse interpretation but that’s not quite how a reasoned debate works. I still don’t think you have acknowledged the rank abuse the coalition has received. In all of your post on divisions, it is about people not respecting YOUR opinion. Across both this thread and the forum that you moderate you have told some untruths which have gone unchecked. In one post, you have accused the coalition of saying that fans who disagree with a boycott “are not the type needed at the club because they don’t care about Rovers”. This has never been said by the coalition or its spokesperson. An individual support may have but that is not the same. Claiming this is a quote from the coalition is just false. This type of untruth is divisive in nature and it begs the question why, despite all of your protestations and claims of reasoned and rationalised posts. The pattern of your posts is that when it comes to a discussion about the coalition or boycotting fans there’s a subtle drift from “reasoned and rationalised debate” to accusation. This would be like me saying that, because a fan on your board once accused the coalition members of wanting to be celebrities, that is a direct from yourself. History tells us you would call out this type of bad faith debate. When the shoe is on the other foot however you want to provide a light touch to debate; yet, if YOUR opinion should be criticised, it should be moderated to a much higher degree I do not think you have approached this discussion in good faith. Now you can sit and accuse me interpretation or twisting or whatever other accusation you want to throw at me goozburger but it couldn’t be any more inaccurate. I thought you were an excellent poster during your time on here and I think you have, at times, presented yourself well on this discussion however I cannot shake a sense of bias in your posts that you are veiling in a constant assertion you are being rational and reasonable at all times. Sorry for that and if that makes me a far left, wingy, toxic little echo chamber maniac then so be it- have your way.

I’m not being forceful - I wouldn’t say it is an assertion. It is more an observation around your language and posting history. I am not trying to twist it. I’ve given you examples of your posts, told you how I think it is coming across and asked you why. I haven’t put words in your mouth as I have directly quoted you. This is all part of the critical debate you appear to want. If you don’t like being criticised yourself, perhaps you shouldn’t be so forceful in criticising others. In both of your posts about division your examples were centred to fans who boycott. On the other forum, your criticism extends to fans on here who disagree with you. I think it is entirely fair to ask why you have never once criticised any of the abuse that the coalition and boycotters have received themselves, including on the board in which you moderate. This is despite some very reasoned and voluminous posts you have made on the subject. You would have thought, in an objective view, you would have acknowledged this by now and without having to be prompted I think you need to attempt harder to find middle ground with your fellow fans. Thousands of people are telling you they have had enough through boycotting. There must be a better approach to your interaction in all of this that does not involve asking those people to produce an in depth business case for what is next in order to for them to be so rewarded with your participation

On each occasion you have spoke about what drives fans apart, the reason you have given centres around the actions of boycotting fans or folk who disagree with you. Nowhere in your otherwise well reasoned posts have you ever taken note of just how much anger and vitriol the coalition and boycotting fans have received. Why is that?

I think it is quite telling that when discussing division in the fan base you have referenced the boycotting fans as a cause. Unless I am mistaken, you haven’t once mentioned the rank abuse that both the coalition and boycotting fans have received. The fans on both sides of this perceived divide who lower themselves to abuse are the minority. Yet, it is clear you put the blame more in one camp than the other The language in your posts is very telling. You have been at great pain to stress that you approach this debate without bias and with an open mind - I don’t think that is necessarily the case. It is always difficult to fully understand somebody from text only but your language points towards a person whose mind is made up - that the boycotting fans and coalition are at fault for the division. This is all my opinion of course. One thing I keep repeating is that you will have more in common with those boycotting fans than you will with the board. With all of your referencing of the minority of boycotting fans who cause division, perhaps you also need to work harder to find common ground with your likeminded town folk, instead of seeking to put the blame for the issues within the fan base at their doorstep. Ultimately there is one party to blame here and it is not any of the multiple fan groups. It is Venkys.

I would say that the truth about the ‘sniping’ is probably in the middle too By and large, it is a handful of accounts posting about “boycotters” or “happy clappers” all the time. It’s not a majority of people at all. I would wager it is around half a dozen either side - a very loud but very small minority who are just entrenched in their arguments Best to ignore them

There’s a lot wrong with this post. I’m unsure how Blackburn Rovers is the worst club in English football club to grow. I’d need to see some compelling evidence behind that one. There’s clubs in far worse positions than us, even after 15 years of chronic negligence If wanting better than the dross Venkys produce is entitled then that is a badge I will gladly wear In the 23/24 season Championship clubs ran losses of £411m which is around £17m on average. I’m fairly certain last year we were one of the only clubs to avoid a loss Your arguments don’t stack up to any sort of scrutiny to be honest. Fairly poor post

There is some quite choice language within this post. It has to be said. “You can feel sorry for yourselves…” ”the elements are not there for wider sympathy” I think you are massively missing the point here. Thousands of your fellow fans have told you they cannot keep going if the Venkys own the club next year. They have decided that the way they can express that is a boycott. You agree with the end cause - that Venkys should relinquish control of this club It is therefore unclear why you seem to think it should be others feeling sorry for themselves. You should be feeling everything they feel man. You have more in common with those fans than you do Venkys, Rudy, Pasha. You should be feeling sorry that so many thousands of your fellow fans decided, today, that enough was enough. So why should the boycotters feel sorry for themselves? They stuck to their principles today. And when it comes to the season ticket renewals, they may also stick to those principles again. That will result in a drop of revenue of 25%+ (I’ll wait for the police figures to figure this out). It won’t be irrelevant then Buried within your posts has to be an acknowledgment of the reality we find ourselves in. Comparisons to Chansiri and Oystons are quite apt - we are not unlike any other non-parachute club in that we regularly make a loss. There’s nothing special about the Venkys financial commitments. However, we are unlike other clubs in that we do not provide the other necessities a club needs to survive - ambition, investment in facilities or its fans and importantly a regular and functioning operational business within the town. We are one accounting decision away from being a Chansiri. One day, they may say no to paying the losses, and then it will be too late to save us from administration. The boycotters are telling you this

Fewer renewals devastate the club. These fans are telling you they are not willing to attend whilst Venkys are here. You should stand with those fans and not the owners How you have concluded that empty seats create division is beyond me. I think it’s an AI post tbh - what the fuck does empty seats have to do with Reform? And how does it create division if people decide they can’t support Venkys any more and don’t want to part with their hard earned cash? I won’t be replying to you again.

But they won’t have it next year. That’s what those fans are telling you. A point you’re missing. You seem ok with that. Fair enough. I am deeply worried about the direction of this club. You have more in common with those boycotting fans than the owners. Remember that. They are asking you to stand with them or else they cannot take it anymore. These people are your neighbours, co workers, friends, drinking partners or whatever. The Venkys are nothing to you. They don’t care about you. Now you can sit here and slag it off all you like but what are YOU gaining from that? You are happy to turn your back on the fans with whom you share so much with but not happy to turn your back on the Venkys, who despise you so much they refuse to step foot in your town. I would start to look at what you’re gaining from all of this before questioning others

These people who boycotted are telling you they will stop going unless something changes. There was a significant amount of ST holders who didn’t attend today If they don’t renew next season, it is very worrying for the club. That is the worry here. Maybe you should do more to listen to those fans. You have far more in common with boycotters than yoy do with the owners. I know whose side I’d rather be seen to be on

I will wait for the police numbers. That will give the coalition the ammunition they need. Over 1000 Watford fans. If the 7.6k figure is real, that is around 25% of home fans who have said they aren’t going to bother again if things don’t change. Very worrying times for the club

Why was it pointless Tricky? There were significantly less people there today. It only takes 3 thousand less fans to be around 30% of season ticket holders telling you they are willing to walk away if things don’t change Are you happy to lose that 30%?

The account has been deleted. Didn’t manage to save them did you?

No it wasn’t

Do it now it's a crime that can provide a fine of up to £1,000 big boy We will follow your lead

You seem to be leaning on the side of blaming the fans for the predicament the squad finds itself. I could not disagree more Regardless of what fans are present at Watford, it is the 22 players on the field of play which decide the result As fans we like to wax lyrical about the impact of the crowd but it really is a matter of muchness. The BBE is not going to be rocking if a boycott is cancelled; the football on show is dire, it is defensive in the first instance but it is neither exciting, quick or full of good moments. Ismael's football is turgid and drags other teams in to our quagmire. Second to this, Ewood has not rocked for a game against Watford in well, god knows Players will not sign for us not because the fans are unhappy but because the club has a reputation for messing players around. They (the board, the owners) don't pay the going rate, the don't offer good contracts for renewal which rewards loyalty and above all else they don't show a respect for the club I would say with the most amount of confidence as one could have that the fans will not decide this season. That was decided last summer - when the powers that be decimated our squad of talent and ripped apart a backroom staff with a degree of unnerving carelessness. You reap what you sow but unfortunately football brings with it collateral unlike any other business. It is the fans who suffer from the decisions of idiots. And we have a lot of idiots in charge

The fact they have acknowledged it is good. Those which opposed a boycott regularly told us that the club wouldn’t care Now they are urging you not to follow it. They care. If you don’t show your face, it is a public display of “enough is enough” If ever there was more proof in the pudding it is that statement. I urge all fans to boycott. It really will matter

There would be nothing really to stop the individual from just saying it. I understand there are trepidations about action. I don’t know the details of what was said to trigger it but it would have to be serious for me to be worried It is a bully boy attitude. He probably wouldn’t like it being put back on him - best way to do that is to out him